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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Does Nintendo suck at making "Core gamer" consoles?

They could have made Wind Waker as the second Zelda on the system.

Making it as the first Zelda game at a time where the GameCube badly needed a system seller was extremely irresponsible.

Miyamoto hated the Wind Waker art style too, the Zelda team hid what they were doing from him and when he first saw it he "cringed" and then stated it would hurt the sales of the game.

And he was 100% right.

If you want to do that fine, make it the 2nd Zelda on the system (2nd Zelda games tend to be more experimental), but you can't be serious and do shit like that as the main Zelda. You have a responsibility to sell systems, that's an example of what happens when you let the inmates run the asylum. You end up with a system that can't even outsell the XBox, which was Microsoft's 1st attempt at a console.



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Soundwave said:

They could have made Wind Waker as the second Zelda on the system.

Making it as the first Zelda game at a time where the GameCube badly needed a system seller was extremely irresponsible.

Miyamoto hated the Wind Waker art style too, the Zelda team hid what they were doing from him and when he first saw it he "cringed" and then stated it would hurt the sales of the game.

And he was 100% right.

If you want to do that fine, make it the 2nd Zelda on the system (2nd Zelda games tend to be more experimental), but you can't be serious and do shit like that as the main Zelda. You have a responsibility to sell systems, that's an example of what happens when you let the inmates run the asylum. You end up with a system that can't even outsell the XBox, which was Microsoft's 1st attempt at a console.

After seeing wind waker zleda i bought a xbox instead.



zeldaring said:

I really don't think it's that complicated. Core consoles are pc, Xbox and ps5. If you like ninetndo and don't love ninetndo games then yes it sucks as a traditional core gaming console. Because it's third party support is limited and hardware is extremely dated.

I disagree, there is plenty to love on Switch besides Nintendo games. You make it sound like the only existing games are AAA or Nintendo. But there are a lot of indies, that the Switch is a very convenient option to play. There are plenty of old games - which most would classify as core by the way - that are very acessible on Switch. There is Fortnite on Switch, people play that and basically only that. Your view on gaming is by far too restricted. This probably means you restrict yourself to avoid a lot of fun games. Let me say: I had a lot of fun this year with indies alone: 20 minutes till dawn, against the storm, rise to ruins and replays of Graveyard Keeper. Try stuff like this and get down from your "Nintendo vs. AAA" stuff.



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zeldaring said:
Tober said:

From that perspective a retro gamer playing on original hardware cannot be a core gamer because the hardware they play on is dated. There are over 4000 games available on the Switch, so I don't know how third party support is limited. Sure there are games not available on the Switch, but that is true for all platforms.

I didn't say it can't be a core console it can be but I wouldn't call it a good one for what the core gamer is looking for unless you love ninetndo games. ps5 and Xbox get almost every thirty party and third party support is very limited imo. Most of thr third party games that are must haves for me are not on Switch or are too much of a down grade.

Sorry, second post in a row that is just... so restricted in view. Again you make it sound like a every core gamer must love the same games. I certainly do love some core games, but I tried and was bored out my ears by GTA V, Tomb Raider Reboot, God of War and Uncharted. Yes, these games. What people call core games is a very broad field. I love Monster Hunter and Resident Evil, both of which are certainly core and both are plenty available on Switch. You can be a core gamer, not like Nintendo games and still have a lot of fun with Nintendo consoles. I feel like you are not a real gamer, by limiting yourself to one and only one experience and that is the right one. A real gamer loves experimenting and having fun with different stuff.



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Soundwave said:

They could have made Wind Waker as the second Zelda on the system.

Making it as the first Zelda game at a time where the GameCube badly needed a system seller was extremely irresponsible.

Miyamoto hated the Wind Waker art style too, the Zelda team hid what they were doing from him and when he first saw it he "cringed" and then stated it would hurt the sales of the game.

And he was 100% right.

If you want to do that fine, make it the 2nd Zelda on the system (2nd Zelda games tend to be more experimental), but you can't be serious and do shit like that as the main Zelda. You have a responsibility to sell systems, that's an example of what happens when you let the inmates run the asylum. You end up with a system that can't even outsell the XBox, which was Microsoft's 1st attempt at a console.

Possibly, but I'm guessing that is an oversell.  The GameCube was purple with a handle.  Couldn't play DVDs and Sony had a strangle hold on third party.  I don't think a realistic zelda would have changed much.  Xbox had halo which helped a lot out of the gates.  I think Nintendo going small proprietary disks hurt more than cel-shading.  

Nintendo also launched without a Mario or Zelda game.  Instead it launched with Luigi's Mansion, which I love, but it wasn't halo.  Lots of issues with the GC.  I just don't think Wind waker was one of them.



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As a guidance to all you kids out there, let me explain definitely the core gamer term.

Core gamers play Dwarf Fortress. And I don't mean the casual Steam-version, I mean what is now called Dwarf Fortress classic. It is obviously the most core experience you can have. You need dedication to dive into all it's systems, understanding and mastering it. And be warned. You need a beefy PC, a bigger fortress with 200+ dwarfes and thriving economy can bring heat to many CPUs. Graphic card is pointless though. I mean, this is Dwarf Fortress:

Graphics are for filthy casuals, that need visual hints to know where they are allowed to climb or attack or other interactions. Ask yourself: does this sound like the core experience of dedication to learn the systems of a game, if the game makes at all times visually clear what you have to do? Or is it more a casual experience for gamers not wanting to learn complex systems?

I am not saying these games are bad. I play filthy casual games all the time and love them. Because I am a true gamer™, who experiences all and everything. But in the question core vs. casual, the core experience is obviously the one you have to learn to play. Which mean Dwarf Fortress is the most core game, which means every core gamer should have played Dwarf Fortress.

Try out your core gamer affinity today, the game is completely free: https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ (ignore the Steam and itch.io links, that is for the paid casual graphic version)

Play that and tell me, how much of a core gamer you really are. I played it, and so have countless others. Did you?



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Soundwave said:

They could have made Wind Waker as the second Zelda on the system.

Making it as the first Zelda game at a time where the GameCube badly needed a system seller was extremely irresponsible.

Miyamoto hated the Wind Waker art style too, the Zelda team hid what they were doing from him and when he first saw it he "cringed" and then stated it would hurt the sales of the game.

And he was 100% right.

If you want to do that fine, make it the 2nd Zelda on the system (2nd Zelda games tend to be more experimental), but you can't be serious and do shit like that as the main Zelda. You have a responsibility to sell systems, that's an example of what happens when you let the inmates run the asylum. You end up with a system that can't even outsell the XBox, which was Microsoft's 1st attempt at a console.

The other problem is that they were desperate to get out a Zelda for GameCube, so Wind Waker didn't have very long of a development. 2001-2005 Nintendo really seemed uncharacteristically reluctant to delay games. We also saw that with Super Mario Sunshine, which launched less than a year into the GCN's life.

Post-2005 mindset Nintendo probably would've released Wind Waker (or some other 3D Zelda) around Holiday 2003 globally, and Sunshine probably would've been a Holiday 2002 or February-May 2003 release.

Shoot, even Super Smash Bros. Melee which is very highly-rated as well was rushed. It only had about 13 months of development, and the six clones were in there because they didn't have time to make more unique fighters. 

I still don't know what Nintendo was thinking having a cel-shaded Zelda with a lot of sailing as the first new Zelda game on GameCube. Even though Wind Waker is a loved game after launch and now, the optics at the time were horrible. 



Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 161 million (was 73 million, then 96 million, then 113 million, then 125 million, then 144 million, then 151 million, then 156 million)

PS5: 115 million (was 105 million) Xbox Series S/X: 48 million (was 60 million, then 67 million, then 57 million)

PS4: 120 mil (was 100 then 130 million, then 122 million) Xbox One: 51 mil (was 50 then 55 mil)

3DS: 75.5 mil (was 73, then 77 million)

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Chrkeller said:

I don't think core vs casual has anything to do with what games people play. More about how much they play. Switch is a great core console via zelda, Mario, metroid, fire emblem, etc.

The switch may lack AAA third party but it is the only console with exclusives. Xbox and ps5 are no different than a PC at this point.

Exactly.

In the car industry, you are called an enthusiast. In our world, that's called being a core gamer, but it's the same thing. Casual players are like people who can drive a car from point A to B but know nothing else about them. Core players are the ones who can tell the difference between an alternator and an oil filter, and how to change them. There's a difference. A big difference. 



Wman1996 said:
Soundwave said:

They could have made Wind Waker as the second Zelda on the system.

Making it as the first Zelda game at a time where the GameCube badly needed a system seller was extremely irresponsible.

Miyamoto hated the Wind Waker art style too, the Zelda team hid what they were doing from him and when he first saw it he "cringed" and then stated it would hurt the sales of the game.

And he was 100% right.

If you want to do that fine, make it the 2nd Zelda on the system (2nd Zelda games tend to be more experimental), but you can't be serious and do shit like that as the main Zelda. You have a responsibility to sell systems, that's an example of what happens when you let the inmates run the asylum. You end up with a system that can't even outsell the XBox, which was Microsoft's 1st attempt at a console.

The other problem is that they were desperate to get out a Zelda for GameCube, so Wind Waker didn't have very long of a development. 2001-2005 Nintendo really seemed uncharacteristically reluctant to delay games. We also saw that with Super Mario Sunshine, which launched less than a year into the GCN's life.

Post-2005 mindset Nintendo probably would've released Wind Waker (or some other 3D Zelda) around Holiday 2003 globally, and Sunshine probably would've been a Holiday 2002 or February-May 2003 release.

Shoot, even Super Smash Bros. Melee which is very highly-rated as well was rushed. It only had about 13 months of development, and the six clones were in there because they didn't have time to make more unique fighters. 

I still don't know what Nintendo was thinking having a cel-shaded Zelda with a lot of sailing as the first new Zelda game on GameCube. Even though Wind Waker is a loved game after launch and now, the optics at the time were horrible. 

The issue with Wind Waker coming out as the first Zelda on GCN wasn't just that it sprinted in the exact opposite direction of the day's zeitgeist, which was already bad enough. It was exponentially compounded by the fact that when Nintendo showed off the first GameCube sizzle reel at Spaceworld 2000, it included this:

You have to understand that back in 2000, this footage had our jaws collectively sore from striking the floor so hard, and anyone hiding their baldness under wigs and toupees were found out from our hair being blown back. This was the power of the GameCube, and THIS was supposed to be the game we were getting!!!!!

And then, as has been said many times in this thread, we got a purple lunchbox with a Fisher-Price controller and little discs that looked like coasters. Bad optics next to big black boxes that looked like they meant business. But just you wait, that new Zelda is going to show all of the naysayers what a mature game really looks like. With masterpieces like Ocarina and Majora on N64, YOU KNOW that next Zelda is going to have all the haters ducking for cover!

And then at Spaceworld 2001:

I'm telling you, you really had to have been around at that time to understand just how let down, confused, bamboozled, hoodwinked and outright betrayed many felt. Yes, Nintendo never outright said the first GCN Zelda would have a realistic or mature art direction, but that was the impression we got when we saw that first trailer! That's where we THOUGHT things were going!

And you want to know what makes it even sadder/sillier? This was revealed on April Fool's Day, lol. It took me weeks to accept that this wasn't an elaborate AFD joke and Wind Waker really was the game we'd be getting.

So yes, even though it's fondly remembered now, Wind Waker being the first GCN Zelda was a horrible decision that helped further push the perception as Nintendo consoles being "for the kids". Twilight Princess really should have come first.



Mnementh said:
zeldaring said:

I didn't say it can't be a core console it can be but I wouldn't call it a good one for what the core gamer is looking for unless you love ninetndo games. ps5 and Xbox get almost every thirty party and third party support is very limited imo. Most of thr third party games that are must haves for me are not on Switch or are too much of a down grade.

Sorry, second post in a row that is just... so restricted in view. Again you make it sound like a every core gamer must love the same games. I certainly do love some core games, but I tried and was bored out my ears by GTA V, Tomb Raider Reboot, God of War and Uncharted. Yes, these games. What people call core games is a very broad field. I love Monster Hunter and Resident Evil, both of which are certainly core and both are plenty available on Switch. You can be a core gamer, not like Nintendo games and still have a lot of fun with Nintendo consoles. I feel like you are not a real gamer, by limiting yourself to one and only one experience and that is the right one. A real gamer loves experimenting and having fun with different stuff.

I didn't say that at all but the switch misses on on many of the big games that core gamers love so if you don't love nintendo games it's too much of a sacrifice to be someone's only console, along with dated hardware it just doesn't make a great core system for the core gamer imo. you talk about resident evil but many of the latest entry's are not on switch. many of the third party games are huge downgrades as well. if you are buying only one console and not into handheld gaming its hard to choose a switch unless you love nintendo games above everything else.