By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Non-Americans Stunned By American Health Care Costs

Mr Puggsly said:
Trumpstyle said:

I found this healthcare study which ranks all the countries in the world, it's from 2021.

https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

This ranking is the same as that study, Sweden is ranked 23, it should really be ranked top 5. Not sure what metrics they are using as I didn't read the pdf. But the healthcare in my country has been excellent.

Just taking a glance at the PDF and knowing a little about how lists like this are put together, costs is a big factor. Maybe even more than the actual quality of what is offered. I mean its worth considering people with money do actually travel to #37 for care. Meanwhile people looking to pay less go somewhere else.

The point I was trying to make in earlier posts is simply making the effort to improve affordability and socializing some aspects that bankrupt people, like cancer. That would actually make people feel much better about our system even without making the leap to universal healthcare.

Well then, consider this: If you travel to the US and are under luxembourgish healthcare, you have to get a special healthcare insurance only for traveling to the US. What's so special about it? It stipulates that if you get sick and/or injured, the Luxembourg Air Rescue could send a medical plane over to pick you up and get your treatment in there and then then the follow-up in Luxembourg, with all the costs (including the flight and accommodation you booked) taken over by the CNS, the luxembourgish healthcare agency. Because no matter how good the care is, it's just not worth the outlandish prices in the US, and it's cheaper for our healthcare service to send a medical plane to pick you up than to cover for your treatment in the US, which is in most cases pretty much exactly the same as one would get in Luxembourg or other countries in western/northern Europe.

Also, while affordability is a factor, it's not the biggest one. It is what costs the US a good position, though. And I say good and not top on purpose, because even with the costs being taken out of the equation, getting into the top 10 would still have been very hard considering there's quite a gap to fill, and it's certainly not all due to the pricetag.



Around the Network
Mr Puggsly said:
curl-6 said:

The new benefit just as much from it when they need it though, unlike in a Ponzi scheme where new investors do not get a fair share of the benefits.

If you get injured in a car crash at age 18 or are born with a lifelong congenital disease, you still get the full benefits. When I got cancer at age 30 I didn't have to go broke or go without treatment as a low income earner because of it.

I tend to be a bit pessimistic about programs run unsustainably. At some point the "new" are gonna have to get hit with a large tax increase. While the "old" will say, "I am entitled because I paid!" Hence, its not gonna be fair at this rate because the old are getting more than they put in, the new will pay more because the program is no longer sustaining itself. We are already at that point by the way, there just hasn't been a tax increase.

Medicaid and social security are different. I'm fine with safety nets for people that truly need them. Primarily if they have real problems, not just a series of dumb life choices. I want people with cancer and other serious conditions to be socialized for the poor. It would take only fraction to pay for that versus every little need that many working people could pay out of pocket. Everybody needs the small things, but a much smaller number of people need help with bankrupting medical issues.

Just as a comparison with the luxembourgish healthcare, which gets run 100% by how much gets paid in by the employees, which is 3.25% of the monthly wage (for those used to yearly wages, in case of a 60k salary you'd pay $162.50 per month for the healthcare, much cheaper than most premiums I saw in the US lately). Our healthcare had only 3 times run a deficit since 2000 (2008, 2009 and 2017; the coronavirus tests and vaccines are directly done by the health ministry, otherwise 2020 and 2021 more than likely would also had a deficit) despite giving much better coverage and cheaper prices than in the US.

And while there was an increase in the amount of the wage that goes to healthcare in 2013, it was only raised from 3.20% to 3.25%, so a 0.05% increase that maybe cost us an Euro or two more per month.



curl-6 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I tend to be a bit pessimistic about programs run unsustainably. At some point the "new" are gonna have to get hit with a large tax increase. While the "old" will say, "I am entitled because I paid!" Hence, its not gonna be fair at this rate because the old are getting more than they put in, the new will pay more because the program is no longer sustaining itself. We are already at that point by the way, there just hasn't been a tax increase.

Medicaid and social security are different. I'm fine with safety nets for people that truly need them. Primarily if they have real problems, not just a series of dumb life choices. I want people with cancer and other serious conditions to be socialized for the poor. It would take only fraction to pay for that versus every little need that many working people could pay out of pocket. Everybody needs the small things, but a much smaller number of people need help with bankrupting medical issues.

Universal Medicare was established 37 years ago here in 1984 and seems to be sustaining itself just fine. 

Personally, even if I hadn't gotten cancer and ended up needing it, I'm fine with paying a little over time not just in case I need it, but so that a kid with cancer can get life saving surgery or a granddad with a bad heart can get the transplant he needs. Of all the things my tax dollars could be spent on, I'm fine with them going towards helping others.

I wasn't comparing to other countries. Just making a point about how its being run poorly here due to fear of raising taxes.

I am not opposed to all safety nets and I already stressed life saving care that bankrupts people should be among the first thing we socialize from a payment concern.



Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Jumpin said:

Do you think the capitalization on the American health system is the reason for the medical industry pushing all the bizarrely and clearly unhealthy diets like the all-fat and all-meat diets?
It’s like their grooming people for a future in a hospital bed.

No. I think excessive eating and poor choices throughout the day are much more destructive to the human body than fad diets.

The American health system doesn't really push anything. Especially after realizing the food pyramid was trash. At best they just recommend to avoid obviously shit food.

I personally tell fatties intermittent fasting is the answer. You can eat junk, shit like a champ and lose weight. But nobody listens to me.



Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Mr Puggsly said:
Jumpin said:

Do you think the capitalization on the American health system is the reason for the medical industry pushing all the bizarrely and clearly unhealthy diets like the all-fat and all-meat diets?
It’s like their grooming people for a future in a hospital bed.

No. I think excessive eating and poor choices throughout the day are much more destructive to the human body than fad diets.

The American health system doesn't really push anything. Especially after realizing the food pyramid was trash. At best they just recommend to avoid obviously shit food.

I personally tell fatties intermittent fasting is the answer. You can eat junk, shit like a champ and lose weight. But nobody listens to me.

Fasting in order to eat junk food, AKA, the Roy Orbison diet, is just another extremely unhealthy practice.

You’ll want to eat much more nutrient dense food when fasting, not just empty macros. You’re giving people advice that will be cause malnutrition. In Roy Orbison’s case, dietary health issues lead to an early death.

It almost seems like the US wants health issues in its population to create customers for the healthcare industry. If health is really something you want to improve, mitigation of health issues should be a major goal: add a nutrition course to avoid a country filled with sham diets doing more and more damage to unwitting peoples’ bodies.

Last edited by Jumpin - on 26 June 2021

I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Around the Network
Rab said:

This interesting video puts the US healthcare system into perspective

It is such a shock for Non-US citizens to see the healthcare costs for US citizens  

Currently the Biden administration with a Democratic majority is doing very little to change this despite Medicare for All (M4A) being hugely popular with voters of all stripes, it seems that making sure heartcare in the US remains a business is the most important outcome for the Dem Establishment 

Their faces :) 

Honestly, that sentence could be used in pretty much any context, the Biden administration is doing very little of anything important, it feels like he's treating his presidency as kind of a "buffer" term after the Trump debacle. Seems like kind of a waste of the Democratic majority, but whatever.

I live in a country where most of healthcare is not free per se, but the government covers most of the cost of hospital visits/medication. I once had to call an ambulance, which was free. Then I was taken to an emergency appointment which cost me €5, and the doctor prescribed me a medication that costs €8 per box (each one lasting two months). And to be honest, that's one of the most expensive medications I've ever had to buy here, most prescribed medication costs less than €5 per box. I have an SOS medication that cost me €1.5, I bought it half a year ago and I still haven't even had to take half of the pills.

And all of those medications are branded, if you want to buy the generic version they're even cheaper. That €8 drug has a €3 generic version.

Overall, the US-American healthcare system (or lack thereof) is pathetic for a developed country. You shouldn't be afraid of going bankrupt because you got sick. You should never not call an ambulance because you don't have the means to pay for it. But then again, everyone with half a brain cell knows that. But now healthcare companies got too big for even the government to be able to oppose them so I don't expect any significant change anytime soon.



B O I

Barozi said:

I'm privately insured since I'm a civil servant in Germany, so I'm receiving all the med bills and pay them before I send them to my insurance company and get my refund.
Before the private insurance I wouldn't get any bill at all so I had no clue what treatments really cost.

Some examples:
Tooth Extraction - 46 Euro
Coloscopy and lab analysis of "materials" - 900 Euro
10 min talking to doctor - 20 Euro
Cavity filling - 150 Euro

Curious as to why you had to be privately insured in a country like Germany? 

I know some have private insurance here in the UK but it just means it's one for them to access health services faster as the public sector is naturally strained. However, Boris expanded spendings accelerated hiring of foreign doctors and nurses to unprecedent degrees, so in a decade or so (once those doctors finish their training), the private insurance will be less enticing? maybe. 

But yeah, curious to hear your take.



Americans stunned by Non-Americans taxes.

Source from 2018: https://www.businessinsider.com/tax-rates-take-home-salaries-40-countries-2018-5

USA:
Practical tax rate: 18%
Average pre-tax salary: $64,154
Average post-tax salary: $52,344

Most of the countries on this list of 40 have considerably lower average salaries too, other than Australia, Switzerland, Ireland, and Denmark. Yeah our medical bills in USA can be ridiculously high (if you don't have a good or platinum level insurance plan, which many of us do), but the amount going into our bank account each week is a lot higher than the vast majority of first world nations.



LurkerJ said:
Barozi said:

I'm privately insured since I'm a civil servant in Germany, so I'm receiving all the med bills and pay them before I send them to my insurance company and get my refund.
Before the private insurance I wouldn't get any bill at all so I had no clue what treatments really cost.

Some examples:
Tooth Extraction - 46 Euro
Coloscopy and lab analysis of "materials" - 900 Euro
10 min talking to doctor - 20 Euro
Cavity filling - 150 Euro

Curious as to why you had to be privately insured in a country like Germany? 

I know some have private insurance here in the UK but it just means it's one for them to access health services faster as the public sector is naturally strained. However, Boris expanded spendings accelerated hiring of foreign doctors and nurses to unprecedent degrees, so in a decade or so (once those doctors finish their training), the private insurance will be less enticing? maybe. 

But yeah, curious to hear your take.

We civil servants in Germany have a special status that's not comparable to any other country. We have reduced constitutional rights compared to other workers but also benefits in other areas.

One benefit is that we don't have to pay social security contributions for unemployment (because we generally can't be laid off) or pension scheme (because we get a special kind of state pension). Furthermore, the state pays for 50% (70% if you have at least two children) of our health insurance. So we only have to cover the remaining 50% (or 30%). We then have the option to choose between private or public health insurance (most people in the private sector can't choose because they must earn high wages in order to be able to get into private health insurance). Most of the time, private health insurance is beneficial to us, as the monthly rates are based on your individual state of health (and age) and not as a percentage of your income.



Dulfite said:

Americans stunned by Non-Americans taxes.

Source from 2018: https://www.businessinsider.com/tax-rates-take-home-salaries-40-countries-2018-5

USA:
Practical tax rate: 18%
Average pre-tax salary: $64,154
Average post-tax salary: $52,344

Most of the countries on this list of 40 have considerably lower average salaries too, other than Australia, Switzerland, Ireland, and Denmark. Yeah our medical bills in USA can be ridiculously high (if you don't have a good or platinum level insurance plan, which many of us do), but the amount going into our bank account each week is a lot higher than the vast majority of first world nations.

This is a stereotypical upper middle class reasoning. Upper middle class and upper classes USA citizens have higher income than Europeans or East Asians, while the lower income classes struggle because the lack of public services and welfare