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Forums - Politics Discussion - Non-Americans Stunned By American Health Care Costs

Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

Oh, fuck off. 

Feel free to read Biden's plan if you want to know what is in his plan. That said, I'm not sure why you would expect a fundamental rearrangement of the entire healthcare system given that he has been in power for, like, four months...

As for your point about Obamacare, it has always been a terrible point which is poorly supported by evidence. Healthcare premiums rose for some people. They lowered for others. Others who were previously out of the market entirely were able to enter the market. Looking at healthcare spending as a whole however, shows that the explosive growth in healthcare spending that some people claim happened, didn't actually happen. 

Haha, I love your reaction.

I guess his promises and rhetoric along the campaign trail are not important. I mean that's just for votes, right? Biden has already done a lot of damage "progress" in four months. The healthcare issues is surprisingly not a focus in spite of many trillions being spent. I guess the plan is spend many more trillions on healthcare... eventually. And fortunately it will only affect the rich.

Healtcare rose for some and lowered for others. In some circles we call that wealth redistribution. The great thing is it also punished normal working people not making much. But he meant well and lying was just necessary. Either way, the compromise was ultimately shit and that's why people still wanna blow up the entire system.

Again, if you want to see what Biden promised, look at what he said, not what you assume he said.

As for whether "the compromise was shit" with Obamacare, you have still provided no evidence of that. The trajectory of health care spending didn't significantly change from Obamacare, however if you look at the size of the uninsured population, it dropped from about 17% when the healthcare exchanges were opened to about 11% when Trump took office. In other words, the costs were virtually unchanged on the whole, while we were able to ensure about 1/3 of the uninsured population. That seems like a solid "compromise" to me.



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Chris Hu said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Trump is lovely, but I despise the left more than I support Trump. I am right of center politically, but very liberal on the victimless stuff.

When it comes to healthcare, I admit its a mess that needs changes. But I have little faith in our government to take full control. Because frankly there is little they do well or efficiently. Don't confuse the US with countries that run more effectively. People actually want to eliminate grades in this country because our public school system is a complete failure. These aren't the people I want running healthcare.

Trump is lovely if you like giant assholes, con man and frauds.  If a Democrat would have done all the illegal and shady stuff did before he got elected he would have never got elected. I'm guessing you hate the left because pretty much anybody on the left knows libertarianism is complete BS. 

Oh right, nothing shady happening on the left. I guess you didn't hear about Biden selling his influence, he even bragged about it.

Either way, I am more concerned about policies than the individuals. Left run cities/states are turning into shit and people are leaving in droves to more conservative places. Hence, policies matter.



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Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Healthcare is provided by people and many innovations come from the private sector. So yeah, I feel there should be a balance of allowing people to profit but also more affordable. If it was more affordable than the demand for "free" has less weight. Also, we have several covid vaccines because profit is a motive.

Insurance pretty much dead, it has become healthcare care and I don't think that's a bad thing. However, it did also make premiums more expensive when the opposite was promised.

False dichotomy to assert that just because Healthcare is publicly controlled that the Private Sector cannot flourish.
Australia does it just fine.

We also made our own COVID vaccines.

Insurance still exists here, but you can still walk into any hospital free of charge and seek assistance on the spot without having to worry about it.

Mr Puggsly said:

Trump is lovely, but I despise the left more than I support Trump. I am right of center politically, but very liberal on the victimless stuff.

When it comes to healthcare, I admit its a mess that needs changes. But I have little faith in our government to take full control. Because frankly there is little they do well or efficiently. Don't confuse the US with countries that run more effectively. People actually want to eliminate grades in this country because our public school system is a complete failure. These aren't the people I want running healthcare.

And here is the kicker... You are whinging and moaning that Biden has made a few lies... When it was actually a daily exercise for Trump.
Hypocritical perspectives are always a hilarious thing to see unfold.

People want all sorts of things... A few loonies wanting to remove grading from your school system (Which is heavily commercialized in the USA anyway, making it irrelevant...) isn't cause for concern for a completely different topic/aspect/issue, doesn't mean that it is going to turn into a clusterfuck. - Otherwise you are playing into the slippery slope fallacy which is ultimately illogical.

People need to stop putting in roadblocks then complaining on the other hand... Essentially if you want shit to improve, stop standing in the way and get behind progress... I think as a country Australia does that very well.
In the USA if anyone says something... You *always* have someone screech "mah ritez!".
I.E. Wearing masks, social distancing, gun control and more.

We just get on with the job, do it right, and everyone is happy.


I think a lot of countries run things very well (developed ones at least). But anybody with half a brain could tell you how inefficient and ineffective our government run programs are in the US. Hence, I always stress I am reluctant to give government more power when they do an abysmal job with what they're given.

I am pretty Australia is using the same vaccines developed by the private sector. Also, getting people vaccinated hasn't gone entirely smooth over there. But I do believe you were less impacted in general given you live on a fucking island that does a better job controlling who comes in than we do.

I think the type of lie certainly matter. I mean if somebody promises to lower my premiums and healthcare in general, great. But when you do the opposite, that REALLY matters. The decisions Biden is making is also objectively raising the costs of living. So hey, I'm not a fan.



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Eagle367 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Hey, I don't disagree. That's why I am a libertarian, I feel the people in power are corrupt.

I assure you the people who are allowed to observe Cuban healthcare are not given the full picture. I imagine you also believe China has also been honest about covid. Anyway, this is an old but good video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6ZH1ps20WA

Some of the best countries have socialism in some aspects. But lets not confuse what is a capitalist and socialist country. Pretty much every country considered great is capitalist. But I am willing to admit there might be a good socialist country, I just don't know of it and I don't think people are going there in droves.

Sorry but the thing about Cuba just exposes your bias and you will come up with anything to support your conclusion. Also what makes the countries great are things that are either socialized like healthcare or at the very least, don't focus on profit of wealthy people as a primary focus. You can take any example and we what makes countries great and I can guarantee you, those things have nothing to do with Capitalism nor the profit motive. And before you say anything, markets are not exclusive to Capitalism and "free markets" don't exist nor can they exist. There is always regulation and it just depends on who is regulated and how. Capitalism is the employer/employee system of the current world and those things don't make countries great. 

What does is universal healthcare, good public education, worker's rights, economic rights, etc. I don't see any Capitalist practice that makes a country great in the modern world. I'll wait for your example. The most Capitalist country is the US and it isn't great but any standard and it sorta actually sucks. Am underdeveloped country with a Gucci bag. Life for the wealthy is great in the US but not for most people. But do you even get what libertarianism is? libertarians are against taxation for example. They don't like "big" government whatever that is either. They are not fans of social programs. You might want to rethink whether you are a libertarian at all actually. 

Yeah, I think Cuba is full of shit. You knew I had this "bias." I couldn't have made it more clear.

A country doesn't have to be socialist to offer the services you desire. The notable countries in Europe are not socialist, they thrive on capitalism.

Libertarian thinking is not as cut and dry as you assume. Since you only see it from the outside your ideas about it are completely wrong. Its not anarchy nor does it oppose paying taxes in general. Only people with left leaning ideals spew that crap.



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sundin13 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Haha, I love your reaction.

I guess his promises and rhetoric along the campaign trail are not important. I mean that's just for votes, right? Biden has already done a lot of damage "progress" in four months. The healthcare issues is surprisingly not a focus in spite of many trillions being spent. I guess the plan is spend many more trillions on healthcare... eventually. And fortunately it will only affect the rich.

Healtcare rose for some and lowered for others. In some circles we call that wealth redistribution. The great thing is it also punished normal working people not making much. But he meant well and lying was just necessary. Either way, the compromise was ultimately shit and that's why people still wanna blow up the entire system.

Again, if you want to see what Biden promised, look at what he said, not what you assume he said.

As for whether "the compromise was shit" with Obamacare, you have still provided no evidence of that. The trajectory of health care spending didn't significantly change from Obamacare, however if you look at the size of the uninsured population, it dropped from about 17% when the healthcare exchanges were opened to about 11% when Trump took office. In other words, the costs were virtually unchanged on the whole, while we were able to ensure about 1/3 of the uninsured population. That seems like a solid "compromise" to me.

Many got insured with underwhelming insurance options because it was either dirt cheap FOR SOME and for a period required. It wasn't always considered great insurance by the way. There was actually a massive penalty/tax for not getting healthcare, but that was removed during the Trump administration and that is something people on both sides were happy with.

But again, a big problem was it raised the costs of premiums and that's partly because people had to cover for this getting it for free or for those who qualified for a big subsidy.

Two things can be true at the same. You can say Obama care was great because it got more people covered. But at the same time it also fucked a lot or normal working people not necessarily making much. I was affected first hand and cancelled my insurance at the time because of it.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Pemalite said:

False dichotomy to assert that just because Healthcare is publicly controlled that the Private Sector cannot flourish.
Australia does it just fine.

We also made our own COVID vaccines.

Insurance still exists here, but you can still walk into any hospital free of charge and seek assistance on the spot without having to worry about it.

Mr Puggsly said:

Trump is lovely, but I despise the left more than I support Trump. I am right of center politically, but very liberal on the victimless stuff.

When it comes to healthcare, I admit its a mess that needs changes. But I have little faith in our government to take full control. Because frankly there is little they do well or efficiently. Don't confuse the US with countries that run more effectively. People actually want to eliminate grades in this country because our public school system is a complete failure. These aren't the people I want running healthcare.

And here is the kicker... You are whinging and moaning that Biden has made a few lies... When it was actually a daily exercise for Trump.
Hypocritical perspectives are always a hilarious thing to see unfold.

People want all sorts of things... A few loonies wanting to remove grading from your school system (Which is heavily commercialized in the USA anyway, making it irrelevant...) isn't cause for concern for a completely different topic/aspect/issue, doesn't mean that it is going to turn into a clusterfuck. - Otherwise you are playing into the slippery slope fallacy which is ultimately illogical.

People need to stop putting in roadblocks then complaining on the other hand... Essentially if you want shit to improve, stop standing in the way and get behind progress... I think as a country Australia does that very well.
In the USA if anyone says something... You *always* have someone screech "mah ritez!".
I.E. Wearing masks, social distancing, gun control and more.

We just get on with the job, do it right, and everyone is happy.


I think a lot of countries run things very well (developed ones at least). But anybody with half a brain could tell you how inefficient and ineffective our government run programs are in the US. Hence, I always stress I am reluctant to give government more power when they do an abysmal job with what they're given.

I am pretty Australia is using the same vaccines developed by the private sector. Also, getting people vaccinated hasn't gone entirely smooth over there. But I do believe you were less impacted in general given you live on a fucking island that does a better job controlling who comes in than we do.

I think the type of lie certainly matter. I mean if somebody promises to lower my premiums and healthcare in general, great. But when you do the opposite, that REALLY matters. The decisions Biden is making is also objectively raising the costs of living. So hey, I'm not a fan.

Have you ever asked yourself why in other countries of the world government programs can do very well but not in the US? I very much doubt it, otherwise you wouldn't have come your conclusions.

1. In most of the western world, government employees get well paid. That's not the case in the US, which causes a brain drain. Increasing their wages would do a lot to reverse that trend already.

2. Congress has handed private companies everything they need to gut government institutions on a silver platter, especially Republicans. Like removing the government's ability to negotiate the prices of medicines in the US when the entire rest of the world relies on this to reduce the prices, for instance. This is due to massive lobbying from the companies to make profits without needing to take any responsibilities for their shortcomings.

3. Ever wondered why all the things the US does with private companies what the rest of the world does with government companies or agencies, like healthcare, education or prisons, are significantly higher in cost in the US? Bet you didn't. The reason why is because US companies spend considerable amount on a totally bloated administration (if I can find the page again, I'll link it, but someone checked the expenses of the biggest universities compared to 30 years ago and administration costs have about quintupled all while all the other stagnated or even dropped in case of teachers expensives) and have to make money for their shareholders, meaning they need to raise considerably more money than the government to get to the same goal, hence making them more expensive.



Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

Again, if you want to see what Biden promised, look at what he said, not what you assume he said.

As for whether "the compromise was shit" with Obamacare, you have still provided no evidence of that. The trajectory of health care spending didn't significantly change from Obamacare, however if you look at the size of the uninsured population, it dropped from about 17% when the healthcare exchanges were opened to about 11% when Trump took office. In other words, the costs were virtually unchanged on the whole, while we were able to ensure about 1/3 of the uninsured population. That seems like a solid "compromise" to me.

Many got insured with underwhelming insurance options because it was either dirt cheap FOR SOME and for a period required. It wasn't always considered great insurance by the way. There was actually a massive penalty/tax for not getting healthcare, but that was removed during the Trump administration and that is something people on both sides were happy with.

But again, a big problem was it raised the costs of premiums and that's partly because people had to cover for this getting it for free or for those who qualified for a big subsidy.

Two things can be true at the same. You can say Obama care was great because it got more people covered. But at the same time it also fucked a lot or normal working people not necessarily making much. I was affected first hand and cancelled my insurance at the time because of it.

You are aware that the Trump administration did this so insurance companies could throw people out of their insurance plans with impunity and as a stepping stone to repeal medicare and replacing it with nothing? The result was that many persons, specially poor people, had much more problems to get any insurance anymore.

As explained above, the raising cost of premiums is just due to bloated administration. If the private insurance system would actually work, their prices would be way, way lower.

Also, consider this: If your utopia of private healthcare would beat public healthcare in every which way, then how come that medicare is even a thing? If everything would be so as you're describing it to be with a private system, then the prices would be lower than in Europe, everybody would be very well insured, and medicare would have been put out of office as it couldn't compete with private companies and went poof somewhere along the way. But in reality, none of those are even remotely true or happening in any shape or form, and have no chance of doing so ever.



Mr Puggsly said:
Pemalite said:

False dichotomy to assert that just because Healthcare is publicly controlled that the Private Sector cannot flourish.
Australia does it just fine.

We also made our own COVID vaccines.

Insurance still exists here, but you can still walk into any hospital free of charge and seek assistance on the spot without having to worry about it.

Mr Puggsly said:

Trump is lovely, but I despise the left more than I support Trump. I am right of center politically, but very liberal on the victimless stuff.

When it comes to healthcare, I admit its a mess that needs changes. But I have little faith in our government to take full control. Because frankly there is little they do well or efficiently. Don't confuse the US with countries that run more effectively. People actually want to eliminate grades in this country because our public school system is a complete failure. These aren't the people I want running healthcare.

And here is the kicker... You are whinging and moaning that Biden has made a few lies... When it was actually a daily exercise for Trump.
Hypocritical perspectives are always a hilarious thing to see unfold.

People want all sorts of things... A few loonies wanting to remove grading from your school system (Which is heavily commercialized in the USA anyway, making it irrelevant...) isn't cause for concern for a completely different topic/aspect/issue, doesn't mean that it is going to turn into a clusterfuck. - Otherwise you are playing into the slippery slope fallacy which is ultimately illogical.

People need to stop putting in roadblocks then complaining on the other hand... Essentially if you want shit to improve, stop standing in the way and get behind progress... I think as a country Australia does that very well.
In the USA if anyone says something... You *always* have someone screech "mah ritez!".
I.E. Wearing masks, social distancing, gun control and more.

We just get on with the job, do it right, and everyone is happy.


I think a lot of countries run things very well (developed ones at least). But anybody with half a brain could tell you how inefficient and ineffective our government run programs are in the US. Hence, I always stress I am reluctant to give government more power when they do an abysmal job with what they're given.

I am pretty Australia is using the same vaccines developed by the private sector. Also, getting people vaccinated hasn't gone entirely smooth over there. But I do believe you were less impacted in general given you live on a fucking island that does a better job controlling who comes in than we do.

I think the type of lie certainly matter. I mean if somebody promises to lower my premiums and healthcare in general, great. But when you do the opposite, that REALLY matters. The decisions Biden is making is also objectively raising the costs of living. So hey, I'm not a fan.

Private? Do you seriously think it was the private sector that developed it? US tax funded the research and scientists made the breakthrough. All the private sector did was reap the rewards. Public funding also developed the tech needed to make the vaccines aka mRNA tech. Almost every major medical technique and medicine itself was developed using public funding. Sorry but the public sector made the tech, not the private sector. You can hire the scientists directly, remove the big pharma and get the same effects except there no patents and the drugs are cheaper. 

Plus you do know Medicare and Medicaid are run by the government and go ask the people using it how they like it.  



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Mr Puggsly said:
Eagle367 said:

Sorry but the thing about Cuba just exposes your bias and you will come up with anything to support your conclusion. Also what makes the countries great are things that are either socialized like healthcare or at the very least, don't focus on profit of wealthy people as a primary focus. You can take any example and we what makes countries great and I can guarantee you, those things have nothing to do with Capitalism nor the profit motive. And before you say anything, markets are not exclusive to Capitalism and "free markets" don't exist nor can they exist. There is always regulation and it just depends on who is regulated and how. Capitalism is the employer/employee system of the current world and those things don't make countries great. 

What does is universal healthcare, good public education, worker's rights, economic rights, etc. I don't see any Capitalist practice that makes a country great in the modern world. I'll wait for your example. The most Capitalist country is the US and it isn't great but any standard and it sorta actually sucks. Am underdeveloped country with a Gucci bag. Life for the wealthy is great in the US but not for most people. But do you even get what libertarianism is? libertarians are against taxation for example. They don't like "big" government whatever that is either. They are not fans of social programs. You might want to rethink whether you are a libertarian at all actually. 

Yeah, I think Cuba is full of shit. You knew I had this "bias." I couldn't have made it more clear.

A country doesn't have to be socialist to offer the services you desire. The notable countries in Europe are not socialist, they thrive on capitalism.

Libertarian thinking is not as cut and dry as you assume. Since you only see it from the outside your ideas about it are completely wrong. Its not anarchy nor does it oppose paying taxes in general. Only people with left leaning ideals spew that crap.

They don't "thrive" on Capitalism, they are shackled by it and the more they shed Capitalist practices, the better they become. As I said and you didn't answer, name one Capitalist thing that makes any country great? And European countries are social democracies, not Capitalist nations like US. Social democracy means they are a hybrid of capitalist and socialist ideas. They aren't purely Capitalist nor can their successes be attributed to Capitalism because everything that has made them better are things Capitalists tend to either oppose or be indifferent towards. If every workplace in Europe was democratized to be worker co-ops, I think Europe would be even better and reach heights never before seen in humanity.

Also please do explain your definition of libertarianism and of anarchism, because you keep bringing it up. Also I don't think you understand anarchism either.  I can understand things aren't as clear cut and can have different iterations so let's hear what you think of when you think libertarianism and anarchism.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

Again, if you want to see what Biden promised, look at what he said, not what you assume he said.

As for whether "the compromise was shit" with Obamacare, you have still provided no evidence of that. The trajectory of health care spending didn't significantly change from Obamacare, however if you look at the size of the uninsured population, it dropped from about 17% when the healthcare exchanges were opened to about 11% when Trump took office. In other words, the costs were virtually unchanged on the whole, while we were able to ensure about 1/3 of the uninsured population. That seems like a solid "compromise" to me.

Many got insured with underwhelming insurance options because it was either dirt cheap FOR SOME and for a period required. It wasn't always considered great insurance by the way. There was actually a massive penalty/tax for not getting healthcare, but that was removed during the Trump administration and that is something people on both sides were happy with.

But again, a big problem was it raised the costs of premiums and that's partly because people had to cover for this getting it for free or for those who qualified for a big subsidy.

Two things can be true at the same. You can say Obama care was great because it got more people covered. But at the same time it also fucked a lot or normal working people not necessarily making much. I was affected first hand and cancelled my insurance at the time because of it.

I've presented evidence that health care costs did not skyrocket after Obamacare. You have presented no evidence in your rebuttal. 

Unless you present evidence, I see no reason to continue this conversation.