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Forums - Politics Discussion - Non-Americans Stunned By American Health Care Costs

Mr Puggsly said:
Chris Hu said:

Trump is lovely if you like giant assholes, con man and frauds.  If a Democrat would have done all the illegal and shady stuff did before he got elected he would have never got elected. I'm guessing you hate the left because pretty much anybody on the left knows libertarianism is complete BS. 

Oh right, nothing shady happening on the left. I guess you didn't hear about Biden selling his influence, he even bragged about it.

Either way, I am more concerned about policies than the individuals. Left run cities/states are turning into shit and people are leaving in droves to more conservative places. Hence, policies matter.

Yeah that is more right wing propaganda you spew there.  Of course you gonna eat that up since you like the guy that lied more then any other president did while in office.



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Mr Puggsly said:

I am pretty Australia is using the same vaccines developed by the private sector. Also, getting people vaccinated hasn't gone entirely smooth over there. But I do believe you were less impacted in general given you live on a fucking island that does a better job controlling who comes in than we do.

I think the type of lie certainly matter. I mean if somebody promises to lower my premiums and healthcare in general, great. But when you do the opposite, that REALLY matters. The decisions Biden is making is also objectively raising the costs of living. So hey, I'm not a fan.

Again, Australia has a hybrid system, the private sector receives a ton of resources and support from the Government...
The reason why we opted for a Hybrid system over a fully private or public system is very simple. Competition.

The Private sector has to compete with the public sector... And the public sector has very little overheads... Think about that for a moment.

Back in 1917, despite only having a population of about 5~ million we heavily assisted the British in designing and manufacturing the Smallpox vaccine.

Fast forward to 1984 with a population of about 15~ million, that is when we introduced our hybrid healthcare system to great success... Since then we have invented/introduced things like: RNA Gene Silencing (Which is necessary for modern RNA vaccines.), Anti-Flu medication in 1996, Cervical Cancer Vaccine in 2006, modular hearings aids...
So despite the "Government controls" and our population being relatively tiny verses the United States, we still punch above our own weight, we still get shit done and we don't whinge about it.





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Eagle367 said:

Private? Do you seriously think it was the private sector that developed it? US tax funded the research and scientists made the breakthrough. All the private sector did was reap the rewards. Public funding also developed the tech needed to make the vaccines aka mRNA tech. Almost every major medical technique and medicine itself was developed using public funding. Sorry but the public sector made the tech, not the private sector. You can hire the scientists directly, remove the big pharma and get the same effects except there no patents and the drugs are cheaper. 

Plus you do know Medicare and Medicaid are run by the government and go ask the people using it how they like it.  

I try not to spend too much time talking politics because its ultimately pointless. How often does our mind change when we have different ideals or expectations? I will make this my final response.

Absolutely, I credit the private sector. Why were resources thrown to them? Because they actually get shit done and I'm sure they will continue to benefit when profit is a motive. People say healthcare shouldn't be for a profit, but the companies that created vaccines did it for a profit. Hence, if spending money alone created innovation government wouldn't have gone to the private sector.

With that said, that's how more things should be done. Don't let the government run much of anything, at least not our incompetent government. Instead throw money at the private sector and government should function as some sort of referee only. When our government has full control of something, you often get a mess. From my understanding, good European countries actually does more of that than us. But I am sure it varies by country.

Medicare is a ponzi scheme. People using it generally get much more out of it than they ever put in. Why? A big reason is people are living much longer. So yeah, people love getting more out of something than they put in. A big flaw of Americans is they love free stuff but hate taxes. Which is why our leaders mislead us into thinking only the rich will pay for it. Meanwhile cost of living is going up but don't confuse that with a tax.

Anyway, its been fun guys. I hope our debate solved some world problems.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Eagle367 said:

Private? Do you seriously think it was the private sector that developed it? US tax funded the research and scientists made the breakthrough. All the private sector did was reap the rewards. Public funding also developed the tech needed to make the vaccines aka mRNA tech. Almost every major medical technique and medicine itself was developed using public funding. Sorry but the public sector made the tech, not the private sector. You can hire the scientists directly, remove the big pharma and get the same effects except there no patents and the drugs are cheaper. 

Plus you do know Medicare and Medicaid are run by the government and go ask the people using it how they like it.  

I try not to spend too much time talking politics because its ultimately pointless. How often does our mind change when we have different ideals or expectations? I will make this my final response.

Absolutely, I credit the private sector. Why were resources thrown to them? Because they actually get shit done and I'm sure they will continue to benefit when profit is a motive. People say healthcare shouldn't be for a profit, but the companies that created vaccines did it for a profit. Hence, if spending money alone created innovation government wouldn't have gone to the private sector.

With that said, that's how more things should be done. Don't let the government run much of anything, at least not our incompetent government. Instead throw money at the private sector and government should function as some sort of referee only. When our government has full control of something, you often get a mess. From my understanding, good European countries actually does more of that than us. But I am sure it varies by country.

Medicare is a ponzi scheme. People using it generally get much more out of it than they ever put in. Why? A big reason is people are living much longer. So yeah, people love getting more out of something than they put in. A big flaw of Americans is they love free stuff but hate taxes. Which is why our leaders mislead us into thinking only the rich will pay for it. Meanwhile cost of living is going up but don't confuse that with a tax.

Anyway, its been fun guys. I hope our debate solved some world problems.

Government pays private institutes instead of doing it themselves is not because "they get shit done," it's because the private sector pays off politicians and law makers. They can get shit done and they have gotten shit done around the world.  Sorry but profit isn't a good motive to make innovations, that's just a lie Capitalists tell. Profit is a motive to create roadblocks for more money and to find duplicitous ways to spend less and get more. This bolded one is just ridiculous. Sorry but the same scientists with the same funding will get the same results, if not better.

The public and scientists made the medicine, the vultures in the private sector just got away with the profits.



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Mr Puggsly said:

Medicare is a ponzi scheme.

That's just not accurate.

In a ponzi scheme new investors are acquired to funnel profits to old investors, with the new either seeing no benefit or hardly any. Universal medicare benefits anyone who needs it, and society as a whole because it is in the best interests of a country to have a healthy population.



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curl-6 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Medicare is a ponzi scheme.

That's just not accurate.

In a ponzi scheme new investors are acquired to funnel profits to old investors, with the new either seeing no benefit or hardly any. Universal medicare benefits anyone who needs it, and society as a whole because it is in the best interests of a country to have a healthy population.

"In a ponzi scheme new investors are acquired to funnel profits to old investors." That's actually exactly what's happening with medicare. Again, the "old" are getting much more than they put in and the "new" pay to keep it afloat. Here in the US it starts at 65, but people weren't expected to live much longer than that when it was designed.

Taxes on medicare and social security have frankly not increased enough based on trends. The only tax increases that are popular though are on the rich. There is also the argument retirement age should be increased. Obviously that's not a popular thing for a politician to suggest. Given those circumstances its a popular system, but may lose some praise if taxes increased.

So again, just clarifying its a popular system that's arguably undertaxed and at this point very funded by the "new." Also, its not like medicare money is just sitting around. The "new" have to pay for it. Which is why I use the term ponzi scheme.



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Mr Puggsly said:

Hey, I don't disagree. That's why I am a libertarian, I feel the people in power are corrupt.

I assure you the people who are allowed to observe Cuban healthcare are not given the full picture. I imagine you also believe China has also been honest about covid. Anyway, this is an old but good video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6ZH1ps20WA

Some of the best countries have socialism in some aspects. But lets not confuse what is a capitalist and socialist country. Pretty much every country considered great is capitalist. But I am willing to admit there might be a good socialist country, I just don't know of it and I don't think people are going there in droves.

You should probably become a liberal or conservative. Libertarians want open borders, that's not good.



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I found this healthcare study which ranks all the countries in the world, it's from 2021.

https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

This ranking is the same as that study, Sweden is ranked 23, it should really be ranked top 5. Not sure what metrics they are using as I didn't read the pdf. But the healthcare in my country has been excellent.



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Trumpstyle said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Hey, I don't disagree. That's why I am a libertarian, I feel the people in power are corrupt.

I assure you the people who are allowed to observe Cuban healthcare are not given the full picture. I imagine you also believe China has also been honest about covid. Anyway, this is an old but good video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6ZH1ps20WA

Some of the best countries have socialism in some aspects. But lets not confuse what is a capitalist and socialist country. Pretty much every country considered great is capitalist. But I am willing to admit there might be a good socialist country, I just don't know of it and I don't think people are going there in droves.

You should probably become a liberal or conservative. Libertarians want open borders, that's not good.

No, but you are hitting on something I am more conservative about, but left-ish in some aspect given shitty circumstances. Sometimes I feel libertarians, much like liberals, don't think too much about the impact of mass immigration.

Liberals have become the party of immigration regardless how it happens. Let many in legally, turn everyone who is here into legal voters and frankly, people coming in illegally is fine and we'll give them free healthcare in the process (perhaps Amazon will pay for it). As far as I am aware, no other developed nation is doing this because it breaks the system. Especially if its a welfare state.

Libertarians are certainly open to letting many in, which I don't inherently oppose. There are many jobs that can be filled by immigration and that benefits us. Depending who you ask though, you may get different responses. To put it simply, a more common libertarian response would be do it in a more controlled manner, more work visas, etc. Essentially get what we need as opposed to the bullshit happening now. People throwing babies over a wall isn't intended to benefit the US for example.

Staunch libertarians argue against minimum wages. However, given this country handles immigration poorly and the market is flooded with low skill labor. I tend to support a reasonable minimum wage. I don't think a $15 federal minimum is a good idea, but so many low skill people in the job market does reduce potential wages. Speaking of which, Biden did support a $15 federal minimum when he was campaigning. He even attacked Trump for not supporting it. As president though, $15 federal minimum is not looking that important to Biden in spite of his policies raising costs of living.

Conservatives don't actually oppose immigration. There is no republican saying, "fuck all immigrants." If anything, they just want it more merit based. I mean I am sure we can still let many focusing more people that will contribute big and small. The way we handle it now means you get a lot of burdens and we produce enough of that on our own. Also, conservatives will argue letting many in lowers potential wages because there is less competition in the market. Which I agree with but not looking to really discuss.

Anyway, I said earlier I will stop posting. But if people respond with something new, I may respond. I will ignore comments that will go in circles.



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Trumpstyle said:

I found this healthcare study which ranks all the countries in the world, it's from 2021.

https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

This ranking is the same as that study, Sweden is ranked 23, it should really be ranked top 5. Not sure what metrics they are using as I didn't read the pdf. But the healthcare in my country has been excellent.

Just taking a glance at the PDF and knowing a little about how lists like this are put together, costs is a big factor. Maybe even more than the actual quality of what is offered. I mean its worth considering people with money do actually travel to #37 for care. Meanwhile people looking to pay less go somewhere else.

The point I was trying to make in earlier posts is simply making the effort to improve affordability and socializing some aspects that bankrupt people, like cancer. That would actually make people feel much better about our system even without making the leap to universal healthcare.



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