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Forums - Politics Discussion - Non-Americans Stunned By American Health Care Costs

Eagle367 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Dude, the people that talk about giving free heathcare or REALLY entertain lowering the costs are in power.

At some point you have to consider asking what's actually going on that prevents healthcare from changing in this country. Maybe its corruption, maybe the politicians have interests that aren't the people?

This is partly why I am a libertarian, there is little we can point to that our government actually does well. I certainly can't point to much where government plays a big role and it works well. If it does work fairly well, its often extremely inefficient/expensive. Our healthcare is not the free market people think it is either, its heavily regulated by government and that is a big reason prices stay high.

Nope! The big reason it's inefficient and expensive is because of private healthcare and convoluted systems that are only made for profit and not for healthcare and thus cause a lot in administrative costs. The other developed countries with more streamlined systems are cheaper and the ones with single payer are the cheapest and the ones with nationalized healthcare are even cheaper. The government does do them well. When the NHS was only public and properly funded (Before the Tories), it was the best system in the world. M4A would cost less than the current US system. Look at Cuba's system currently. Netherlands, Finland, etc. The government does healthcare well and "free market" is just an illusion it's just who is regulated and how. 

The private healthcare system is the most inefficient way to deliver healthcare in the history of humanity because profit is primary and healthcare is secondary and that bloats up cost. It's also why no country that has gone single payer has ever come back nor has any party tried to run a campaign on bringing it back to an archaic system. It just works. It's been proven in many countries in many situations and it just works. It's cheaper, better and more efficient. Of course a corrupt government can ruin anything like how Tories are ruining the NHS. But man, libertarianism(The US one, not the capital L one) is so stupid in my opinion. It just doesn't work in a village with thousands of people let alone a country with millions. Government isn't bad, it's who the government works for that determines whether government is good or bad. US government works for it's oligarchs and that's what makes it bad. Government by it's nature is necessary to manage huge groups of people.

Healthcare can be profitable without being so expensive. I mean its why a procedure can vary wildly simply depending where you go. Insurance is also a big reason healthcare costs can be so high, they will charge thousands to your insurance for a simple procedure. I think the entire country at the very least agrees healthcare should be more affordable, but we don't even move in that direction.

You know literally nothing about libertarianism. I am not an anarchist. Also, never believe anything Cuba wants you to believe.

You are needlessly defending socialized healthcare. I am not attacking socialized healthcare. However, its not a perfect system given many people still opt for private healthcare in many countries even when the social option is available. At least if they can afford the better healthcare option.



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sundin13 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Again, look who is in power and their rhetoric. But when they got power, their attitudes towards a lot of things changed.

What more would you like people to do? Would you like to see citizens burning down cities to get free healthcare? Well I got news for you, people are already doing that to end racism.

What I'm trying to tell you is the people deemed opponents of socializing healthcare or lowering costs are not in power. Part of the reason many voted for liberals is to "fix" healthcare. But now even our liberal media is admitting the people in power are full of shit because clearly they cater to others. Trillions of dollars being thrown around and I am not seeing anything that really benefits me or will lower my bills. Cost of living is going up though, so great!

How many people in power have been vocally supportive of Universal Healthcare? 1%? 2%? What are you on about? 

Many have talked about as healthcare as right (i.e. socializing healthcare) or lowering the costs. I think it especially matters when the current president has said these things.

Remember, even Obama's big promise was lowering the costs of healthcare. Instead his big changes increased prices for your normal working person.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Eagle367 said:

Nope! The big reason it's inefficient and expensive is because of private healthcare and convoluted systems that are only made for profit and not for healthcare and thus cause a lot in administrative costs. The other developed countries with more streamlined systems are cheaper and the ones with single payer are the cheapest and the ones with nationalized healthcare are even cheaper. The government does do them well. When the NHS was only public and properly funded (Before the Tories), it was the best system in the world. M4A would cost less than the current US system. Look at Cuba's system currently. Netherlands, Finland, etc. The government does healthcare well and "free market" is just an illusion it's just who is regulated and how. 

The private healthcare system is the most inefficient way to deliver healthcare in the history of humanity because profit is primary and healthcare is secondary and that bloats up cost. It's also why no country that has gone single payer has ever come back nor has any party tried to run a campaign on bringing it back to an archaic system. It just works. It's been proven in many countries in many situations and it just works. It's cheaper, better and more efficient. Of course a corrupt government can ruin anything like how Tories are ruining the NHS. But man, libertarianism(The US one, not the capital L one) is so stupid in my opinion. It just doesn't work in a village with thousands of people let alone a country with millions. Government isn't bad, it's who the government works for that determines whether government is good or bad. US government works for it's oligarchs and that's what makes it bad. Government by it's nature is necessary to manage huge groups of people.

Healthcare can be profitable without being so expensive. I mean its why a procedure can vary wildly simply depending where you go. Insurance is also a big reason healthcare costs can be so high, they will charge thousands to your insurance for a simple procedure. I think the entire country at the very least agrees healthcare should be more affordable, but we don't even move in that direction.

You know literally nothing about libertarianism. I am not an anarchist. Also, never believe anything Cuba wants you to believe.

You are needlessly defending socialized healthcare. I am not attacking socialized healthcare. However, its not a perfect system given many people still opt for private healthcare in many countries even when the social option is available. At least if they can afford the better healthcare option.

Oh wow, propaganda against Cuba. Shows you really are an American. Also, there should be no profit motive when it comes to human rights and healthcare is a human right. You shouldn't even be asking "Can I make a profit off of healthcare?" Because even asking that question leads you down the wrong path. And it's not "the better option" it's just rich people who don't care how much money they can throw at a problem to get special treatment. Sorry but government itself isn't bad, taxation on it's own isn't bad either,

Also you are saying the people in power support universal healthcare when that is a lie. Biden said he would veto it, Harris pretended to support it by backed down and a lot of Democrats don't support it and many of them get donations from health insurance companies. Bernie Sanders isn't in power mate, so your initial assumption is wrong to begin with. But any healthcare system where the primary motive is profit will fail. It will make profits for sure, but it'll fail at actual healthcare. The people in power don't want universal healthcare and want to keep making profits for the healthcare industry. That's the issue. The issue is the oligarchy, not the government. The government serving the oligarchy is certainly an issue but the root cause of that is a system that treats wealthy people like the aristocrats of old and thinks having money means your opinion is more valid. 

The issue is listening to idiots like Bill Gates, Elon Musk, etc instead of actual experts. For example bill Gates ruined the vaccine distribution of the world by throwing his force behind the pharmaceutical companies and protecting their patents. Stuff like that is the issue. I guarantee you once US gets universal healthcare, the people will never wanna go back. 



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

How many people in power have been vocally supportive of Universal Healthcare? 1%? 2%? What are you on about? 

Many have talked about as healthcare as right (i.e. socializing healthcare) or lowering the costs. I think it especially matters when the current president has said these things.

Remember, even Obama's big promise was lowering the costs of healthcare. Instead his big changes increased prices for your normal working person.

The current president is not for Universal Healthcare.

As for Obama, healthcare spending did not explode under Obamacare. The growth in health spending decreased several percentage points in the 2010s compared to the '90s and the '00s and is now close to being in line with GDP growth. What Obamacare succeeded in doing was getting millions of new people enrolled in the healthcare system and the fact that it managed that while slowing health care spending growth should very much be lauded. Obviously big changes are necessary, but you have to keep in mind that Obamacare was very much a compromise bill, and it was not purely the vision of Democratic lawmakers.

EDIT: Also, I think it is very important to remember what the healthcare policy has been for the leading party for the past four years. Repeal and....we'll figure something else out later. Is it really a surprise that we don't have M4A?

Last edited by sundin13 - on 30 April 2021

Eagle367 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Healthcare can be profitable without being so expensive. I mean its why a procedure can vary wildly simply depending where you go. Insurance is also a big reason healthcare costs can be so high, they will charge thousands to your insurance for a simple procedure. I think the entire country at the very least agrees healthcare should be more affordable, but we don't even move in that direction.

You know literally nothing about libertarianism. I am not an anarchist. Also, never believe anything Cuba wants you to believe.

You are needlessly defending socialized healthcare. I am not attacking socialized healthcare. However, its not a perfect system given many people still opt for private healthcare in many countries even when the social option is available. At least if they can afford the better healthcare option.

Oh wow, propaganda against Cuba. Shows you really are an American. Also, there should be no profit motive when it comes to human rights and healthcare is a human right. You shouldn't even be asking "Can I make a profit off of healthcare?" Because even asking that question leads you down the wrong path. And it's not "the better option" it's just rich people who don't care how much money they can throw at a problem to get special treatment. Sorry but government itself isn't bad, taxation on it's own isn't bad either,

Also you are saying the people in power support universal healthcare when that is a lie. Biden said he would veto it, Harris pretended to support it by backed down and a lot of Democrats don't support it and many of them get donations from health insurance companies. Bernie Sanders isn't in power mate, so your initial assumption is wrong to begin with. But any healthcare system where the primary motive is profit will fail. It will make profits for sure, but it'll fail at actual healthcare. The people in power don't want universal healthcare and want to keep making profits for the healthcare industry. That's the issue. The issue is the oligarchy, not the government. The government serving the oligarchy is certainly an issue but the root cause of that is a system that treats wealthy people like the aristocrats of old and thinks having money means your opinion is more valid. 

The issue is listening to idiots like Bill Gates, Elon Musk, etc instead of actual experts. For example bill Gates ruined the vaccine distribution of the world by throwing his force behind the pharmaceutical companies and protecting their patents. Stuff like that is the issue. I guarantee you once US gets universal healthcare, the people will never wanna go back. 

Haha, its incredibly naive to believe anything Cuba says. But okay.

I'm glad we agree, "healthcare is a human right" really just means socialism. I made that point in a previous post.

Eating food and drinking water could be seen as a human rights as well, I might even agree. I am also okay with it being very profitable for some to be in the business of providing food and water. Hence, I fail to see why something like healthcare can't be profitable. Again, even the countries with socialized healthcare tend to have private options.

Education is seen as a human right. But if people want to pay for the less shitty government option we have, that's fine with me. I'm glad they have the for profit option.

I'm somewhere in the middle about healthcare in this country. I would prefer we just move towards making it more affordable and socializing aspects that can bankrupt people. But the state we are currently at leaves me not surprised people just want it free.



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sundin13 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Many have talked about as healthcare as right (i.e. socializing healthcare) or lowering the costs. I think it especially matters when the current president has said these things.

Remember, even Obama's big promise was lowering the costs of healthcare. Instead his big changes increased prices for your normal working person.

The current president is not for Universal Healthcare.

As for Obama, healthcare spending did not explode under Obamacare. The growth in health spending decreased several percentage points in the 2010s compared to the '90s and the '00s and is now close to being in line with GDP growth. What Obamacare succeeded in doing was getting millions of new people enrolled in the healthcare system and the fact that it managed that while slowing health care spending growth should very much be lauded. Obviously big changes are necessary, but you have to keep in mind that Obamacare was very much a compromise bill, and it was not purely the vision of Democratic lawmakers.

EDIT: Also, I think it is very important to remember what the healthcare policy has been for the leading party for the past four years. Repeal and....we'll figure something else out later. Is it really a surprise that we don't have M4A?

Healthcare is a right actually means socializing healthcare. Everybody saying it knows that, but its possible Biden doesn't know that given he's possibly senile.

My main point about Obama was he boasted he was going lower healthcare premiums. Essentially the compromise is making things more affordable. When Obamacare passed I actually cancelled my insurance because it became too expensive. Shit like that is why there was a backlash towards Obama. Your graph doesn't reflect that. But it was common knowledge this was happening, when it was supposed to be the opposite.



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Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

The current president is not for Universal Healthcare.

As for Obama, healthcare spending did not explode under Obamacare. The growth in health spending decreased several percentage points in the 2010s compared to the '90s and the '00s and is now close to being in line with GDP growth. What Obamacare succeeded in doing was getting millions of new people enrolled in the healthcare system and the fact that it managed that while slowing health care spending growth should very much be lauded. Obviously big changes are necessary, but you have to keep in mind that Obamacare was very much a compromise bill, and it was not purely the vision of Democratic lawmakers.

EDIT: Also, I think it is very important to remember what the healthcare policy has been for the leading party for the past four years. Repeal and....we'll figure something else out later. Is it really a surprise that we don't have M4A?

Healthcare is a right actually means socializing healthcare. Everybody saying it knows that, but its possible Biden doesn't know that given he's possibly senile.

My main point about Obama was he boasted he was going lower healthcare premiums. Essentially the compromise is making things more affordable. When Obamacare passed I actually cancelled my insurance because it became too expensive. Shit like that is why there was a backlash towards Obama. Your graph doesn't reflect that. But it was common knowledge this was happening, when it was supposed to be the opposite.

Oh, fuck off. 

Feel free to read Biden's plan if you want to know what is in his plan. That said, I'm not sure why you would expect a fundamental rearrangement of the entire healthcare system given that he has been in power for, like, four months...

As for your point about Obamacare, it has always been a terrible point which is poorly supported by evidence. Healthcare premiums rose for some people. They lowered for others. Others who were previously out of the market entirely were able to enter the market. Looking at healthcare spending as a whole however, shows that the explosive growth in healthcare spending that some people claim happened, didn't actually happen. 



I just want to point out how ass-backwwards it is that health insurance is tied to work in USA, when the ones that need it the most are the ones who lose their jobs...

Ka-pi96 said:

What about those of us that are shocked that it costs full stop? The amount is irrelevant, getting a bill at all for healthcare is a shock to me!

Every developed capitalist nation(except USA) has their own version of universal healthcare.
You get a bill for a doctors visit in Sweden, but its like $10-$30 tops.

And if you for some reason can't afford it, the government will pay it for you, so there's no such thing as medical debt.

Mr Puggsly said:
Pemalite said:

Never paid for a single doctors visit, medical/physical checkup, vaccine, medication. etc' in my entire 35~ year life.

Universal healthcare is absolutely awesome, Americans are being conned... And it will *never* change while you have people screeching "socialism" left, right and center.

Dude, the people that talk about giving free heathcare or REALLY entertain lowering the costs are in power.

At some point you have to consider asking what's actually going on that prevents healthcare from changing in this country. Maybe its corruption, maybe the politicians have interests that aren't the people?

This is partly why I am a libertarian, there is little we can point to that our government actually does well. I certainly can't point to much where government plays a big role and it works well. If it does work fairly well, its often extremely inefficient/expensive. Our healthcare is not the free market people think it is either, its heavily regulated by government and that is a big reason prices stay high.

Biden is not for universal healthcare. Although I believe he has spoken in favor of it in the past. But unfortunately he's instead for expanding Obamacare.

Poll after poll shows that a majority of people in the US are for universal healthcare (70%~), which is almost a shocker at this point considering what people are disingenuously conditioned to associate it with through certain news US outlets news outlets (communism, socialism, Venezuela, etc.)

So why doesn't it happen?

Partially because the general population are kept believing that this is normal.
But the main part is the money the pharmaceutical companies make on this. Year after year they top the highest grossing lists. And they funnel millions of that into the pockets of politicians to have them continue voting in their favor, and to  think-tanks and news networks telling people how bad it is, so that they continue making billions.

In 2004 they passed a legislation that prevents the government from negotiating drug prices.
That is also one of the major problems, and something that is not a thing in other developed countries, and why drug prices keep skyrocketing in the US.

I think people need to get as many candidates who abstain from taking corporate donations as possible into position of power.
However, they'll be putting themselves at a disadvantage then when it comes to campaign funds. And even if they take office, when their other colleagues are 'playing the game', they probably find it difficult to get things done unless they play along as well.

Last edited by Hiku - on 30 April 2021

Mr Puggsly said:
Pemalite said:

Rhetoric of "Government is shit at doing anything" is part of the reason why Universal healthcare can not and will never become "good" in the United States.

To many opponents rather than everyone putting their big-boy pants on and getting on with the job.

Again, look who is in power and their rhetoric. But when they got power, their attitudes towards a lot of things changed.

What more would you like people to do? Would you like to see citizens burning down cities to get free healthcare? Well I got news for you, people are already doing that to end racism.

What I'm trying to tell you is the people deemed opponents of socializing healthcare or lowering costs are not in power. Part of the reason many voted for liberals is to "fix" healthcare. But now even our liberal media is admitting the people in power are full of shit because clearly they cater to others. Trillions of dollars being thrown around and I am not seeing anything that really benefits me or will lower my bills. Cost of living is going up though, so great!

You are watching way too much faux news my friend the vast majority of all the protests over the past year have been peaceful (over 95%).  Also since the US has a highly militarized police force most of the ones that turned violence where shut down in no time, heck major a one in Dallas got shut down even though there was no violence at all.  The US has been pros in shutting down protest and strikes and union busting for over 100 years already.



Mr Puggsly said:
Pemalite said:

Rhetoric of "Government is shit at doing anything" is part of the reason why Universal healthcare can not and will never become "good" in the United States.

To many opponents rather than everyone putting their big-boy pants on and getting on with the job.

Again, look who is in power and their rhetoric. But when they got power, their attitudes towards a lot of things changed.

What more would you like people to do? Would you like to see citizens burning down cities to get free healthcare? Well I got news for you, people are already doing that to end racism.

What I'm trying to tell you is the people deemed opponents of socializing healthcare or lowering costs are not in power. Part of the reason many voted for liberals is to "fix" healthcare. But now even our liberal media is admitting the people in power are full of shit because clearly they cater to others. Trillions of dollars being thrown around and I am not seeing anything that really benefits me or will lower my bills. Cost of living is going up though, so great!

Doesn't matter.
If you have political parties who are against (It's irrelevant who is actually in power) and a large swathe of the populace like yourself who constantly criticize anything about "Government intervention" then things won't change, it adds additional roadblocks to improvements and progress because "votes".
In short you are part of the problem.

It also doesn't help that the USA had 4~ years of failure by a conservative government which rolled back some progressive improvements... Because contrary to popular belief, Universal Healthcare generally doesn't happen overnight, it takes allot of systemic changes and legislation that can span decades.

Mr Puggsly said:

Healthcare can be profitable without being so expensive. I mean its why a procedure can vary wildly simply depending where you go. Insurance is also a big reason healthcare costs can be so high, they will charge thousands to your insurance for a simple procedure. I think the entire country at the very least agrees healthcare should be more affordable, but we don't even move in that direction.

You know literally nothing about libertarianism. I am not an anarchist. Also, never believe anything Cuba wants you to believe.

You are needlessly defending socialized healthcare. I am not attacking socialized healthcare. However, its not a perfect system given many people still opt for private healthcare in many countries even when the social option is available. At least if they can afford the better healthcare option.

Health care, human lives, should never be about profits.

You want your healthcare to reach a point where the word "insurance" isn't even used.



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