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Forums - Politics Discussion - Non-Americans Stunned By American Health Care Costs

Mr Puggsly said:
Eagle367 said:

Oh wow, propaganda against Cuba. Shows you really are an American. Also, there should be no profit motive when it comes to human rights and healthcare is a human right. You shouldn't even be asking "Can I make a profit off of healthcare?" Because even asking that question leads you down the wrong path. And it's not "the better option" it's just rich people who don't care how much money they can throw at a problem to get special treatment. Sorry but government itself isn't bad, taxation on it's own isn't bad either,

Also you are saying the people in power support universal healthcare when that is a lie. Biden said he would veto it, Harris pretended to support it by backed down and a lot of Democrats don't support it and many of them get donations from health insurance companies. Bernie Sanders isn't in power mate, so your initial assumption is wrong to begin with. But any healthcare system where the primary motive is profit will fail. It will make profits for sure, but it'll fail at actual healthcare. The people in power don't want universal healthcare and want to keep making profits for the healthcare industry. That's the issue. The issue is the oligarchy, not the government. The government serving the oligarchy is certainly an issue but the root cause of that is a system that treats wealthy people like the aristocrats of old and thinks having money means your opinion is more valid. 

The issue is listening to idiots like Bill Gates, Elon Musk, etc instead of actual experts. For example bill Gates ruined the vaccine distribution of the world by throwing his force behind the pharmaceutical companies and protecting their patents. Stuff like that is the issue. I guarantee you once US gets universal healthcare, the people will never wanna go back. 

Haha, its incredibly naive to believe anything Cuba says. But okay.

I'm glad we agree, "healthcare is a human right" really just means socialism. I made that point in a previous post.

Eating food and drinking water could be seen as a human rights as well, I might even agree. I am also okay with it being very profitable for some to be in the business of providing food and water. Hence, I fail to see why something like healthcare can't be profitable. Again, even the countries with socialized healthcare tend to have private options.

Education is seen as a human right. But if people want to pay for the less shitty government option we have, that's fine with me. I'm glad they have the for profit option.

I'm somewhere in the middle about healthcare in this country. I would prefer we just move towards making it more affordable and socializing aspects that can bankrupt people. But the state we are currently at leaves me not surprised people just want it free.

Sorry, but to counteract your point, it's incredibly naive to believe anything USA says.  But Okay.

Now that we have set the propaganda aside, there have been various studies around the world about Cuban healthcare system and how successful it's been. Hell even Obama praised it. Cuba did healthcare much better than most countries, just admit it.

Also you are talking to a guy that wants education for all and for both healthcare and education to be managed in the universal system all around the world. Public funding already funds most of the research in the world already and were it not for public funding, the vaccines wouldn't have been produced so quickly. I also believe in a livable minimum wage no matter what job you do. 

And when I say healthcare is a human right, I believe everyone should get it and I'm talking about actual healthcare, not "access" to it like some Dems like to say. I also think no human should starve to death or die of thirst, so yeah. And every human should have clean drinking water. The point though is that I said profit as the primary motive. And that's what the US as a policy has. Other industrialized countries don't have that. And hey, if socialized healthcare works the best in the world and has been shown time and again to be the best, then of course I'll endorse it and why wouldn't anyone? Is it because "socialism bad" or some nonsense?

Personally I think Socialism is just better than Capitalism. I also think both anarchism and libertarianism are stupid so I'll lay it all out there. But looking purely at healthcare, It can be seen around the world that socialized healthcare works the best if your aim is the betterment of humanity. Splatterings of heavily regulated private insurance companies is a separate discussion from what should be the central system. That requires a new conversation altogether.



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I live in the Nowhere, Texas (which is hyperbole that's not to be confused with the real town of Nowhere, Oklahoma) and the biggest problem around here isn't even the cost of health care, it's access. There's no hospital here! Not even a clinic in town! People here consequently just don't do preventative care, which might be helpful in preventing hospital visits, especially considering that the median age here is like 52, and they don't journey to a hospital either for what are thought to be minor emergencies even. Only for the most catastrophic events do people typically bother introducing themselves to the medical system.

That said, I remember one time when my mom had a stroke. (This was back when she was alive.) It was over an hour's drive to the nearest hospital, but of course under the circumstances there was no choice. Still, if you know how strokes work, the delay in travel time alone could've resulted in permanent damage! Thankfully though, she recovered almost fully and was hospitalized for only four days. All this for the low, low price of just $83,000 to us, since we had no insurance. Ask me how we paid it!

In the words of Austin Powers, YaY capitalism!

So when hear millionaire ass-wipes on my TV screen screeching about how much a system of socialized medicine they're under exactly no threat of experiencing might add to the federal budget deficit (while naturally championing more tax cuts for billionaires in the next breath, always)...ya know, try and imagine my sympathy. Try and imagine it. Try and imagine how much more concerned I am about the federal budget than I am about oh say my own for example.

When the government provides -- or even just otherwise guarantees -- people health insurance, more people access health care services. When more people access health care services, medical facilities survive and more clinics and hospitals get built. There is, in other words, a direct relationship between the two things: cost and access.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 30 April 2021

sundin13 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Healthcare is a right actually means socializing healthcare. Everybody saying it knows that, but its possible Biden doesn't know that given he's possibly senile.

My main point about Obama was he boasted he was going lower healthcare premiums. Essentially the compromise is making things more affordable. When Obamacare passed I actually cancelled my insurance because it became too expensive. Shit like that is why there was a backlash towards Obama. Your graph doesn't reflect that. But it was common knowledge this was happening, when it was supposed to be the opposite.

Oh, fuck off. 

Feel free to read Biden's plan if you want to know what is in his plan. That said, I'm not sure why you would expect a fundamental rearrangement of the entire healthcare system given that he has been in power for, like, four months...

As for your point about Obamacare, it has always been a terrible point which is poorly supported by evidence. Healthcare premiums rose for some people. They lowered for others. Others who were previously out of the market entirely were able to enter the market. Looking at healthcare spending as a whole however, shows that the explosive growth in healthcare spending that some people claim happened, didn't actually happen. 

Haha, I love your reaction.

I guess his promises and rhetoric along the campaign trail are not important. I mean that's just for votes, right? Biden has already done a lot of damage "progress" in four months. The healthcare issues is surprisingly not a focus in spite of many trillions being spent. I guess the plan is spend many more trillions on healthcare... eventually. And fortunately it will only affect the rich.

Healtcare rose for some and lowered for others. In some circles we call that wealth redistribution. The great thing is it also punished normal working people not making much. But he meant well and lying was just necessary. Either way, the compromise was ultimately shit and that's why people still wanna blow up the entire system.



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Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

Oh, fuck off. 

Feel free to read Biden's plan if you want to know what is in his plan. That said, I'm not sure why you would expect a fundamental rearrangement of the entire healthcare system given that he has been in power for, like, four months...

As for your point about Obamacare, it has always been a terrible point which is poorly supported by evidence. Healthcare premiums rose for some people. They lowered for others. Others who were previously out of the market entirely were able to enter the market. Looking at healthcare spending as a whole however, shows that the explosive growth in healthcare spending that some people claim happened, didn't actually happen. 

Haha, I love your reaction.

I guess his promises and rhetoric along the campaign trail are not important. I mean that's just for votes, right? Biden has already done a lot of damage "progress" in four months. The healthcare issues is surprisingly not a focus in spite of many trillions being spent. I guess the plan is spend many more trillions on healthcare... eventually. And fortunately it will only affect the rich.

Healtcare rose for some and lowered for others. In some circles we call that wealth redistribution. The great thing is it also punished normal working people not making much. But he meant well and lying was just necessary. Either way, the compromise was ultimately shit and that's why people still wanna blow up the entire system.

Are you a Trump supporter?



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Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Again, look who is in power and their rhetoric. But when they got power, their attitudes towards a lot of things changed.

What more would you like people to do? Would you like to see citizens burning down cities to get free healthcare? Well I got news for you, people are already doing that to end racism.

What I'm trying to tell you is the people deemed opponents of socializing healthcare or lowering costs are not in power. Part of the reason many voted for liberals is to "fix" healthcare. But now even our liberal media is admitting the people in power are full of shit because clearly they cater to others. Trillions of dollars being thrown around and I am not seeing anything that really benefits me or will lower my bills. Cost of living is going up though, so great!

Doesn't matter.
If you have political parties who are against (It's irrelevant who is actually in power) and a large swathe of the populace like yourself who constantly criticize anything about "Government intervention" then things won't change, it adds additional roadblocks to improvements and progress because "votes".
In short you are part of the problem.

It also doesn't help that the USA had 4~ years of failure by a conservative government which rolled back some progressive improvements... Because contrary to popular belief, Universal Healthcare generally doesn't happen overnight, it takes allot of systemic changes and legislation that can span decades.

Mr Puggsly said:

Healthcare can be profitable without being so expensive. I mean its why a procedure can vary wildly simply depending where you go. Insurance is also a big reason healthcare costs can be so high, they will charge thousands to your insurance for a simple procedure. I think the entire country at the very least agrees healthcare should be more affordable, but we don't even move in that direction.

You know literally nothing about libertarianism. I am not an anarchist. Also, never believe anything Cuba wants you to believe.

You are needlessly defending socialized healthcare. I am not attacking socialized healthcare. However, its not a perfect system given many people still opt for private healthcare in many countries even when the social option is available. At least if they can afford the better healthcare option.

Health care, human lives, should never be about profits.

You want your healthcare to reach a point where the word "insurance" isn't even used.

Healthcare is provided by people and many innovations come from the private sector. So yeah, I feel there should be a balance of allowing people to profit but also more affordable. If it was more affordable than the demand for "free" has less weight. Also, we have several covid vaccines because profit is a motive.

Insurance pretty much dead, it has become healthcare care and I don't think that's a bad thing. However, it did also make premiums more expensive when the opposite was promised.



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Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Haha, I love your reaction.

I guess his promises and rhetoric along the campaign trail are not important. I mean that's just for votes, right? Biden has already done a lot of damage "progress" in four months. The healthcare issues is surprisingly not a focus in spite of many trillions being spent. I guess the plan is spend many more trillions on healthcare... eventually. And fortunately it will only affect the rich.

Healtcare rose for some and lowered for others. In some circles we call that wealth redistribution. The great thing is it also punished normal working people not making much. But he meant well and lying was just necessary. Either way, the compromise was ultimately shit and that's why people still wanna blow up the entire system.

Are you a Trump supporter?

Trump is lovely, but I despise the left more than I support Trump. I am right of center politically, but very liberal on the victimless stuff.

When it comes to healthcare, I admit its a mess that needs changes. But I have little faith in our government to take full control. Because frankly there is little they do well or efficiently. Don't confuse the US with countries that run more effectively. People actually want to eliminate grades in this country because our public school system is a complete failure. These aren't the people I want running healthcare.



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Eagle367 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Haha, its incredibly naive to believe anything Cuba says. But okay.

I'm glad we agree, "healthcare is a human right" really just means socialism. I made that point in a previous post.

Eating food and drinking water could be seen as a human rights as well, I might even agree. I am also okay with it being very profitable for some to be in the business of providing food and water. Hence, I fail to see why something like healthcare can't be profitable. Again, even the countries with socialized healthcare tend to have private options.

Education is seen as a human right. But if people want to pay for the less shitty government option we have, that's fine with me. I'm glad they have the for profit option.

I'm somewhere in the middle about healthcare in this country. I would prefer we just move towards making it more affordable and socializing aspects that can bankrupt people. But the state we are currently at leaves me not surprised people just want it free.

Sorry, but to counteract your point, it's incredibly naive to believe anything USA says.  But Okay.

Now that we have set the propaganda aside, there have been various studies around the world about Cuban healthcare system and how successful it's been. Hell even Obama praised it. Cuba did healthcare much better than most countries, just admit it.

Also you are talking to a guy that wants education for all and for both healthcare and education to be managed in the universal system all around the world. Public funding already funds most of the research in the world already and were it not for public funding, the vaccines wouldn't have been produced so quickly. I also believe in a livable minimum wage no matter what job you do. 

And when I say healthcare is a human right, I believe everyone should get it and I'm talking about actual healthcare, not "access" to it like some Dems like to say. I also think no human should starve to death or die of thirst, so yeah. And every human should have clean drinking water. The point though is that I said profit as the primary motive. And that's what the US as a policy has. Other industrialized countries don't have that. And hey, if socialized healthcare works the best in the world and has been shown time and again to be the best, then of course I'll endorse it and why wouldn't anyone? Is it because "socialism bad" or some nonsense?

Personally I think Socialism is just better than Capitalism. I also think both anarchism and libertarianism are stupid so I'll lay it all out there. But looking purely at healthcare, It can be seen around the world that socialized healthcare works the best if your aim is the betterment of humanity. Splatterings of heavily regulated private insurance companies is a separate discussion from what should be the central system. That requires a new conversation altogether.

Hey, I don't disagree. That's why I am a libertarian, I feel the people in power are corrupt.

I assure you the people who are allowed to observe Cuban healthcare are not given the full picture. I imagine you also believe China has also been honest about covid. Anyway, this is an old but good video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6ZH1ps20WA

Some of the best countries have socialism in some aspects. But lets not confuse what is a capitalist and socialist country. Pretty much every country considered great is capitalist. But I am willing to admit there might be a good socialist country, I just don't know of it and I don't think people are going there in droves.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Pemalite said:

Are you a Trump supporter?

Trump is lovely, but I despise the left more than I support Trump. I am right of center politically, but very liberal on the victimless stuff.

When it comes to healthcare, I admit its a mess that needs changes. But I have little faith in our government to take full control. Because frankly there is little they do well or efficiently. Don't confuse the US with countries that run more effectively. People actually want to eliminate grades in this country because our public school system is a complete failure. These aren't the people I want running healthcare.

Trump is lovely if you like giant assholes, con man and frauds.  If a Democrat would have done all the illegal and shady stuff did before he got elected he would have never got elected. I'm guessing you hate the left because pretty much anybody on the left knows libertarianism is complete BS. 



Mr Puggsly said:

Healthcare is provided by people and many innovations come from the private sector. So yeah, I feel there should be a balance of allowing people to profit but also more affordable. If it was more affordable than the demand for "free" has less weight. Also, we have several covid vaccines because profit is a motive.

Insurance pretty much dead, it has become healthcare care and I don't think that's a bad thing. However, it did also make premiums more expensive when the opposite was promised.

False dichotomy to assert that just because Healthcare is publicly controlled that the Private Sector cannot flourish.
Australia does it just fine.

We also made our own COVID vaccines.

Insurance still exists here, but you can still walk into any hospital free of charge and seek assistance on the spot without having to worry about it.

Mr Puggsly said:
Pemalite said:

Are you a Trump supporter?

Trump is lovely, but I despise the left more than I support Trump. I am right of center politically, but very liberal on the victimless stuff.

When it comes to healthcare, I admit its a mess that needs changes. But I have little faith in our government to take full control. Because frankly there is little they do well or efficiently. Don't confuse the US with countries that run more effectively. People actually want to eliminate grades in this country because our public school system is a complete failure. These aren't the people I want running healthcare.

And here is the kicker... You are whinging and moaning that Biden has made a few lies... When it was actually a daily exercise for Trump.
Hypocritical perspectives are always a hilarious thing to see unfold.

People want all sorts of things... A few loonies wanting to remove grading from your school system (Which is heavily commercialized in the USA anyway, making it irrelevant...) isn't cause for concern for a completely different topic/aspect/issue, doesn't mean that it is going to turn into a clusterfuck. - Otherwise you are playing into the slippery slope fallacy which is ultimately illogical.

People need to stop putting in roadblocks then complaining on the other hand... Essentially if you want shit to improve, stop standing in the way and get behind progress... I think as a country Australia does that very well.
In the USA if anyone says something... You *always* have someone screech "mah ritez!".
I.E. Wearing masks, social distancing, gun control and more.

We just get on with the job, do it right, and everyone is happy.




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Mr Puggsly said:
Eagle367 said:

Sorry, but to counteract your point, it's incredibly naive to believe anything USA says.  But Okay.

Now that we have set the propaganda aside, there have been various studies around the world about Cuban healthcare system and how successful it's been. Hell even Obama praised it. Cuba did healthcare much better than most countries, just admit it.

Also you are talking to a guy that wants education for all and for both healthcare and education to be managed in the universal system all around the world. Public funding already funds most of the research in the world already and were it not for public funding, the vaccines wouldn't have been produced so quickly. I also believe in a livable minimum wage no matter what job you do. 

And when I say healthcare is a human right, I believe everyone should get it and I'm talking about actual healthcare, not "access" to it like some Dems like to say. I also think no human should starve to death or die of thirst, so yeah. And every human should have clean drinking water. The point though is that I said profit as the primary motive. And that's what the US as a policy has. Other industrialized countries don't have that. And hey, if socialized healthcare works the best in the world and has been shown time and again to be the best, then of course I'll endorse it and why wouldn't anyone? Is it because "socialism bad" or some nonsense?

Personally I think Socialism is just better than Capitalism. I also think both anarchism and libertarianism are stupid so I'll lay it all out there. But looking purely at healthcare, It can be seen around the world that socialized healthcare works the best if your aim is the betterment of humanity. Splatterings of heavily regulated private insurance companies is a separate discussion from what should be the central system. That requires a new conversation altogether.

Hey, I don't disagree. That's why I am a libertarian, I feel the people in power are corrupt.

I assure you the people who are allowed to observe Cuban healthcare are not given the full picture. I imagine you also believe China has also been honest about covid. Anyway, this is an old but good video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6ZH1ps20WA

Some of the best countries have socialism in some aspects. But lets not confuse what is a capitalist and socialist country. Pretty much every country considered great is capitalist. But I am willing to admit there might be a good socialist country, I just don't know of it and I don't think people are going there in droves.

Sorry but the thing about Cuba just exposes your bias and you will come up with anything to support your conclusion. Also what makes the countries great are things that are either socialized like healthcare or at the very least, don't focus on profit of wealthy people as a primary focus. You can take any example and we what makes countries great and I can guarantee you, those things have nothing to do with Capitalism nor the profit motive. And before you say anything, markets are not exclusive to Capitalism and "free markets" don't exist nor can they exist. There is always regulation and it just depends on who is regulated and how. Capitalism is the employer/employee system of the current world and those things don't make countries great. 

What does is universal healthcare, good public education, worker's rights, economic rights, etc. I don't see any Capitalist practice that makes a country great in the modern world. I'll wait for your example. The most Capitalist country is the US and it isn't great but any standard and it sorta actually sucks. Am underdeveloped country with a Gucci bag. Life for the wealthy is great in the US but not for most people. But do you even get what libertarianism is? libertarians are against taxation for example. They don't like "big" government whatever that is either. They are not fans of social programs. You might want to rethink whether you are a libertarian at all actually. 



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