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Forums - Politics Discussion - Do We Really Want a New Cold War?

OTBWY said:
Mnementh said:

The US cooperates with Saudi-Arabia and other dictatorships around the world. And I dunno - China has made much improvements for it's people over the past year. I would argue that life for the normal chinese citizen was never better in general. That doesn't mean everything is fine, but what I see is a lot of improvement for the people living in China. Isn't that what you want, a better life for the people at the bottom?

I'm not saying that it's all good, far from it. The US has a lot of issues. But it's not an authoritarian state like the others.

I don't know what is so good for the Chinese people, if you're talking about economic benefits sure. They had an economic boom. But in the last few years China has become more authoritarian, like implementing a 1984 esque social credit system. It's one of those things out of many that seem to look like a bad direction for that country.

I agree that there are bad things in China. But I disagree that these can be solved by conflict. On the contrary.

And life for the normal people in China got better. They would disagree with you. Their life in the 80s was much worse than it is today. So if the US implements sanctions or increases military pressure it will negatively affect the life of normal chinese citizens. And they will in this case not blame their government, but yours.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020

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sethnintendo said:
Mnementh said:

Did I say, that everything is fine? No, I wrote it in the text you quoted. But I said things got better for most of the people. Are we at the end of the road? No, we are at the beginning. But a war, cold or hot, will not make things better about this, and it will certainly make things worse for a hundreds of millions chinese. So if your intention is to make things better, than the militaristic or even economic pressure just isn't rational.

And also, I mentioned that the US has no problem with Saudi Arabia. Saudi's de facto leader Mohammed bin Salman defended these camps.

Yes he probably defended camps because China buys a lot of Saudi oil.  Also China probably supplies Saudi Arabia weapons so they can bomb more food markets and schools in Yemen.

I believe US should stay out of most conflicts because apparently my country does more harm then good usually.  I don't mind seeing China or others try take role in policing world because they will probably fail just like we did.  Maybe not as bad.

I don't think the world need policing. At least I don't think it is benefitial. And I don't want the Chinese government in the role as world police as well. Luckily so far they don't seem interested in the job.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year], [1], [2], [3], [4]

Couldn't agree more with the thread creator Mnementh.
Cooperation is always better than conflict and mistrust. I can't believe some people here really believe the USA should go into a war with china lol.
What do you think a war between those countries today would look like? Do you think US would just win and china would be defeated and the problem would be solved.

A real war between the USA and china (and probably russia, leading to a ww3) could mean the end of todays modern society, even of humanity.



Mnementh said:
sethnintendo said:

Yes he probably defended camps because China buys a lot of Saudi oil.  Also China probably supplies Saudi Arabia weapons so they can bomb more food markets and schools in Yemen.

I believe US should stay out of most conflicts because apparently my country does more harm then good usually.  I don't mind seeing China or others try take role in policing world because they will probably fail just like we did.  Maybe not as bad.

I don't think the world need policing. At least I don't think it is benefitial. And I don't want the Chinese government in the role as world police as well. Luckily so far they don't seem interested in the job.

Well someone has to at least put up refugee camps to protect civilians fleeing civil war and violence.  That's what UN is supposed to do yet Europe still gets flooded with Syrian refugees.  Refugee camps should be temporary till nation's stand up and accept some but most nations are only willing to take on some not hundred of thousands.



As much of a pacifist I am in real life, sometimes a fight is needed to make things better.

Same could be said for countries and war. Wars are generally terrible, but if it saves more lives than it takes, then it is worth it. I support space exploration very heavily and the science involved with it. Most of the science would not have been possible without the Cold War.

Talking things out with China will probably lead to millions of deaths due to their regime, and then the war would come anyway after so many years.



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Mnementh said:
OTBWY said:

I'm not saying that it's all good, far from it. The US has a lot of issues. But it's not an authoritarian state like the others.

I don't know what is so good for the Chinese people, if you're talking about economic benefits sure. They had an economic boom. But in the last few years China has become more authoritarian, like implementing a 1984 esque social credit system. It's one of those things out of many that seem to look like a bad direction for that country.

I agree that there are bad things in China. But I disagree that these can be solved by conflict. On the contrary.

And life for the normal people in China got better. They would disagree with you. Their life in the 80s was much worse than it is today. So if the US implements sanctions or increases military pressure it will negatively affect the life of normal chinese citizens. And they will in this case not blame their government, but yours.

I am not so sure about that. There are a couple of things that I want to note here. The people in China say what the CCP wants them to say. It is not a free state, so there is no way of knowing how content they are with the status quo. Besides, you're talking about improvement to their lives, but even there we don't know. CCP for example claims that there is no poverty in China, how? They lowered the poverty level to 4 dollars a week. There is huge corruption there, public humiliations, punishments for things that go against party lines like watching porn, bad food hygiene, big child kidnapping numbers, violence against foreigners, horrible working conditions, bad healthcare and reliance on bogus Chinese medicine. The list goes on and on of the problems in that country. And if you ask me what a good example is, I'd say go look at Taiwan. Another Chinese country (in practice) that doesn't have those issues.

No, I definitely think that there is no other way but to sanction that country in order to topple that party. Same goes with Russia with Putin. I think appeasing them will not change anything, better yet I think it will only get worse.



John2290 said:
SvennoJ said:

What exactly are you hoping that will improve from wiping China off the face of the Earth?

Covid19 could have come from anywhere, also from places which would have taken much longer to figure out what was going on. Not that mattered since the rest of the world simply assumed it would stay in China, then in Italy, then in Europe, oh shit it doesn't give a crap about borders.

Perhaps your fight is with companies taking advantage of the cheap labor, which can be found in other places as well. India will gladly take over.
Perhaps your fight is with consumers going for the cheapest crap instead of choosing high quality locally manufactured items?
Perhaps your fight is with gullible people falling for Chinese twitter and other nonsense?
Perhaps your fight is with companies caving in to Chinese demands for censorship?

I didn't say anything about wiping China off the face of the Earth, those are your words. My fight is with the CCP, noone else and the PLA just happens to be the appendage of thr CCP that would have to be sliced off. Why are you apologising for China? Do you have any idea what that nation has become? School yourself and you may see why this world with China going at the pace it's going is going to end up as a factory for the CCP. Capitalism might not be perfect but whatever monstrosity of a system they've Frankensteined together is pure indifference, it's no better than Hitlers national socalism and the CCP are no better than Hitler. Yet they're winning and no one has the balls to challenege them before they make half the world an indifferent factory for their gain. Go catch up on what China has become cause I can't take anyone seriously who apologises or gives them the benifet, covid or no covid, if this was 2019 my opinion would still only very minorly be changed. Covid infact, at least brought light to the CCP for the world to see the shit thry go on with. 

What am I apologizing China for?

War is not a solution, only makes things worse for the people you want to save from the CCP. Change has to come from within. As long as the west keeps the CCP in power by caving in for the opportunities they provide, things won't change. Same as the West support(ed) dictators in the Middle East to keep the cheap oil coming. How much better off are Afghanistan and Iraq from the wars...



OTBWY said:
Mnementh said:

I agree that there are bad things in China. But I disagree that these can be solved by conflict. On the contrary.

And life for the normal people in China got better. They would disagree with you. Their life in the 80s was much worse than it is today. So if the US implements sanctions or increases military pressure it will negatively affect the life of normal chinese citizens. And they will in this case not blame their government, but yours.

I am not so sure about that. There are a couple of things that I want to note here. The people in China say what the CCP wants them to say. It is not a free state, so there is no way of knowing how content they are with the status quo. Besides, you're talking about improvement to their lives, but even there we don't know. CCP for example claims that there is no poverty in China, how? They lowered the poverty level to 4 dollars a week. There is huge corruption there, public humiliations, punishments for things that go against party lines like watching porn, bad food hygiene, big child kidnapping numbers, violence against foreigners, horrible working conditions, bad healthcare and reliance on bogus Chinese medicine. The list goes on and on of the problems in that country. And if you ask me what a good example is, I'd say go look at Taiwan. Another Chinese country (in practice) that doesn't have those issues.

No, I definitely think that there is no other way but to sanction that country in order to topple that party. Same goes with Russia with Putin. I think appeasing them will not change anything, better yet I think it will only get worse.

Except that doesn't work either. If "sanctioning" a country was able to topple parties then North Korea wouldn't be an issue.

Not to mention that there are a whole slew of countries that wouldn't agree to any sanctions against China because it would hurt them just as much as it would hurt China.

Besides, a lot of those "problems" you listed are also present in western countries...



OTBWY said:
Mnementh said:

I agree that there are bad things in China. But I disagree that these can be solved by conflict. On the contrary.

And life for the normal people in China got better. They would disagree with you. Their life in the 80s was much worse than it is today. So if the US implements sanctions or increases military pressure it will negatively affect the life of normal chinese citizens. And they will in this case not blame their government, but yours.

I am not so sure about that. There are a couple of things that I want to note here. The people in China say what the CCP wants them to say. It is not a free state, so there is no way of knowing how content they are with the status quo. Besides, you're talking about improvement to their lives, but even there we don't know. CCP for example claims that there is no poverty in China, how? They lowered the poverty level to 4 dollars a week. There is huge corruption there, public humiliations, punishments for things that go against party lines like watching porn, bad food hygiene, big child kidnapping numbers, violence against foreigners, horrible working conditions, bad healthcare and reliance on bogus Chinese medicine. The list goes on and on of the problems in that country. And if you ask me what a good example is, I'd say go look at Taiwan. Another Chinese country (in practice) that doesn't have those issues.

No, I definitely think that there is no other way but to sanction that country in order to topple that party. Same goes with Russia with Putin. I think appeasing them will not change anything, better yet I think it will only get worse.

I agree that current day China has many problems. Yet I don't think sanction, military pressure or exclusion from trade agreements is helping.

To put another point of view at it: I met multiple chinese students that were studying in the west while I was at the university. They were at times critical of their government, because outside of China they had not to fear repressions. But also because exposure to western style of life and western media changed their point of view. A point of view they took back to China. I bet, that student exchange does a lot more to change societies than sanctions do. It takes time, yes. But it works much better.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year], [1], [2], [3], [4]

Soundwave said:

The US wouldn't win a war against China anyway, not without great cost. They couldn't even beat the Taliban in Afghanistan after 15+ years, they've withdrawn and the Taliban are back running large parts of the country and having been doing that even before the US left.

They couldn't get Saddam the first time and couldn't win cleanly in Vietnam either. China is a whole other ball park of trouble.

I don't know about a "Cold War", but I think China has badly damaged their standing with the Western world, not just this COVID19 situation but other issues were already bubbling to the surface. I dunno about "Cold War" ... maybe "Lukewarm posturing", lol. 

What? Your examples are purely examples of "Hot" Wars. Not Cold Wars.  Did the US military ever engage in combat with the Soviet military during the US-USSR Cold War? A Cold War is "war" without actual warfare.  Examples today are US relations with Iran, Venezuela, and North Korea.  

What is needed to punish China over their responsibility for the Covid-19 outbreak are sanctions, not overt warfare.  Besides, warfare between nuclear powers only ends in MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction).

All countries in the world affected by this virus should come together and enact economic sanctions against China that will last for years.