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Forums - Politics Discussion - Do We Really Want a New Cold War?

Farsala said:
As much of a pacifist I am in real life, sometimes a fight is needed to make things better.

Same could be said for countries and war. Wars are generally terrible, but if it saves more lives than it takes, then it is worth it. I support space exploration very heavily and the science involved with it. Most of the science would not have been possible without the Cold War.

Talking things out with China will probably lead to millions of deaths due to their regime, and then the war would come anyway after so many years.

Their modern regime hasn't killed millions( 21st century) but the US regimes have. The US is more dangerous right now than China.



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John2290 said:
SvennoJ said:

What am I apologizing China for?

War is not a solution, only makes things worse for the people you want to save from the CCP. Change has to come from within. As long as the west keeps the CCP in power by caving in for the opportunities they provide, things won't change. Same as the West support(ed) dictators in the Middle East to keep the cheap oil coming. How much better off are Afghanistan and Iraq from the wars...

Like I said, I was and still am against the wars in the middle east, they were farces for material gain and most western nations will now be pulling out large chunks of Chinas economy which is great for self reliance but extremly bad for the CCP's temperament. War sucks hard, it's a fucking awful situation but sometimes it is entirely necessary cause China won't change from the inside, you know that as well as I do the people are locked down hard and well and truly indoctrinated and passive, it's 1984 in that place and only marginally better than North Korea although they have more freedom but on the flipside China do a way better job of balancing that slight freedom with an iron fist through deception and manipulation.

Taking Chinas regime down before they take the world and impose their way of life will saves tens of billions from having to endure under that regime not to mention Muslims being the next Jews and are exterminated slowly like they currently are in China. Hitler didn't go straight to death camps, it started much like this and eventually the only option the CCP will be left with to rid themselves of disent from Muslims is genocide. I have my problems with the Muslim religion but I'd fight to see them free and alive because no group deserves that shit.

Covid or no Covid, either China backs down, gets back to acting whitin their own borders or the West is left with no option but to fight for each others way of life. We've seen the sides form over the last decade or two, clear unions and there is no point left anynore of kicking the can down the road, it's happening at some point so we might as well get it over and done with once the virus is dealth with cause freedom, the environment, human rights, religion are all worth the price to be paid.

Anyway, it's not up to us so there is fuck all point of discussing it cause it boils down to you being opposed and me being for it, lets see the decisions the powers that be make and who gets whom to take up sides out of the nations that are left. So what's the point, lets see where the cards fall over the next few years, hell, we might not even see boots on the ground style war or even a cold war fought by proxies and instead something totally new in cyberwarfare... well not so new as it's happening now and it's post STUXNET, fuck know what that battlefeild actually looks like. 

I'll interject and say I disagree with your entire premise. The lines aren't clearly drawn between west and east and China and US are a lot more intertwined than US and USSR ever were. If China does good, that would mean the west and US are doing good as well and China would love a vibrant and thriving west. China has dealings with all western nations in many avenues from telecoms to even movies and video games like Tencent and even things like the one belt one road initiative. And China's allies work well with US as well. China deals a lot with India for example whose an ally of Russia and US. And Pakistan is so close to China but it's history with US is well known, and many Chinese work in Japan, a US ally. Plus universities in the West are filled with Chinese students. The lines aren't clear at all and many nations would hate to choose sides.

The only way they choose sides is if US or China CHOOSES to start WW3. It's the choice of the super powers and right now, the US seems much more eager for war as a falling empire than China as a rising one.



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OTBWY said:
Mnementh said:

I agree that there are bad things in China. But I disagree that these can be solved by conflict. On the contrary.

And life for the normal people in China got better. They would disagree with you. Their life in the 80s was much worse than it is today. So if the US implements sanctions or increases military pressure it will negatively affect the life of normal chinese citizens. And they will in this case not blame their government, but yours.

I am not so sure about that. There are a couple of things that I want to note here. The people in China say what the CCP wants them to say. It is not a free state, so there is no way of knowing how content they are with the status quo. Besides, you're talking about improvement to their lives, but even there we don't know. CCP for example claims that there is no poverty in China, how? They lowered the poverty level to 4 dollars a week. There is huge corruption there, public humiliations, punishments for things that go against party lines like watching porn, bad food hygiene, big child kidnapping numbers, violence against foreigners, horrible working conditions, bad healthcare and reliance on bogus Chinese medicine. The list goes on and on of the problems in that country. And if you ask me what a good example is, I'd say go look at Taiwan. Another Chinese country (in practice) that doesn't have those issues.

No, I definitely think that there is no other way but to sanction that country in order to topple that party. Same goes with Russia with Putin. I think appeasing them will not change anything, better yet I think it will only get worse.

You don't topple regimes with sanctions. You only hurt the common people. Examples are Iran, Venezuela, Russia and NK. And you don't change nations with wars by getting rid of stable regimes. Examples are all regimes US toppled like Iraq, Libya, etc. Only internal change brings betterment to regimes, that includes oligarchic ones like US and Russia and dictatorial ones like China and Saudi Arabia.



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Nighthawk117 said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Why? A lot of countries should blame themselves/their own governments a LOT more than they blame China. Just for starters countries that had terribly orchestrated lockdowns that encouraged large swathes of people to move across the country spreading the virus are infinitely more to blame for how bad the situation got in those countries than China is.

The only thing you can evenly remotely blame on China is trying to cover up the severity of the situation. But you're an American. Your government is just as guilty of that as China's.

China is solely responsible for the outbreak in the first place.  It originated in Wuhan.  Tell me this, when China put Wuhan into lockdown, they shut off all travel from that city.  Roads were closed. Trains were shutdown.  They also shut down all domestic flights.  Right? The only thing they didn't shut down were international flights out of Wuhan, that was the only way out of the city, and 5 million people left that way.

And I clearly see the reason for that. It would be a difficult diplomatic situation locking foreigners in a city with a rampaging epidemic. China would've gotten into serious trouble if they had done that.



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The freaking Taliban outlasted the US in Afghanistan, China is not some back water military power. In Vietnam the US got punched in the face and eventually decided they didn't want any more. The US does not have the stomach to be in a war with China, they want wars to be easy and short and that would not be the case.

China also holds tremendous amount of the US' debt, they could collapse the US economy by calling it in. Most large US corporations also do business in China and $$$$ is what controls the US gov't not principals or morals.

The situation is not simple.



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John2290 said:
Eagle367 said:

I'll interject and say I disagree with your entire premise. The lines aren't clearly drawn between west and east and China and US are a lot more intertwined than US and USSR ever were. If China does good, that would mean the west and US are doing good as well and China would love a vibrant and thriving west. China has dealings with all western nations in many avenues from telecoms to even movies and video games like Tencent and even things like the one belt one road initiative. And China's allies work well with US as well. China deals a lot with India for example whose an ally of Russia and US. And Pakistan is so close to China but it's history with US is well known, and many Chinese work in Japan, a US ally. Plus universities in the West are filled with Chinese students. The lines aren't clear at all and many nations would hate to choose sides.

The only way they choose sides is if US or China CHOOSES to start WW3. It's the choice of the super powers and right now, the US seems much more eager for war as a falling empire than China as a rising one.

Both seem equally eager and China is acitvely preparing and the poking and proding during a pandemic is a clear sign they are keen on the idea, hopefully provoking I would imagine so they can get more international support. 

The US is not a failing power, they were stronger than they ever were the month before the pandemic and looked to be on a continuing strength. Now with them pulling their dick out of China they will only increase in strength while China looses economical strengths simultaneously with so many countries eager to get out and quit the outsourcing. China know this and that's why so many analysts think this will be Chinas time to do the grab, right after the pandemic clears but not long enough to loose that strength. 

There are many types of war the US and China could engage in short of troops on the ground but this particular thread is concerning a cold war and there are so many nations that can be curently used as proxy, The US are already in Veneuzalla under the guise of a drug war which is a brittle front for what it actually is. I'd prefer they go to a full on hot war and pull the plaster off, have it over quick and fast instead of ending up with another Korea and Vietnam situation... wouldn't you? The topic of the thread, like, Do we really need a cold war? I say no, we need a hot war. Quick and fast and a good boom after, instead of decades long mess with the threath og nuclear war looming as the threats fly. 

There goes diplomacy Oh man, we really seem to be nothing more than monkeys with sticks and stones...



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John2290 said:
hunter_alien said:

There goes diplomacy Oh man, we really seem to be nothing more than monkeys with sticks and stones...

As long as we have the freedom to be the monkies we want to be we won't need to use the sticks and stones. If China expands and imposes it's will on the world the suffering will be greater and more drawn out than any war. Our recent ancestors gave up their lives to protect our freedoms, the least we could do is not let those freedoms slip away to the monstrosity of a machine that is China. 

The cost of pushing China back within their borders heavily outways the cost of and the lives lost. I don't think many people in this thread who've replied to me realise the threat of China and how much they have manipulated western society, there is a clear end game visable in their approach, it's an invasion through corporate, technological and ideological means. But hey, China numba wan, right! No one fights and someday we will have to agree with that statment or risk being disappeared. At least the social credit system will make life more fun, we as gamers might actually succeed at the cost of all dignity and we give up games entirely of course. 

A clear endgame visible? Really? Pax Americana? The much propagated "end of history?" Do any of these ring a bell to you? Or do these "freedoms" only apply to you and you only? Where was that much-touted freedom in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, most of Latin America or Africa? Where they decimated by the nasty Chinese influence as well? You are talking about an open war as a quick solution, yet the US is bogged down in several military quagmires and millions of innocent lives where and are constantly lost.

I'm really sorry, but even though there are clear issues with China, absolutely disgusting propaganda and "monstrosity machinery" analogies apply to any global power at any time in history.

Your freedom for which your ancestors gave their lives were paid by the blood of Native Americans and slaves in general, so don't you dare bring that bullshit into the discussion. The freedom that was "won" was only for the privileged few.

Is China any better? Who knows, but hey, at least they did not go around the world and bombed millions in the name of a failed ideal



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hunter_alien said:

OTBWY said:
The US engages in both soft power and hard power. It uses the means of subversion and slow coercion to slowly extend its influence and strengthen its position. It does invade countries or sends mercs/pmc's and they do have their online paid troll farms. China does it more in an economic sense.


It is trying to expand at the expense of others. It is extremely nationalistic and is turning slowly but surely authoritarian/dictatorial. It must be checked like any other aggressive country.

Fixed it for you

Your crappy fix still implicates China of all of that lmao.



Eagle367 said:

You don't topple regimes with sanctions. You only hurt the common people. Examples are Iran, Venezuela, Russia and NK. And you don't change nations with wars by getting rid of stable regimes. Examples are all regimes US toppled like Iraq, Libya, etc. Only internal change brings betterment to regimes, that includes oligarchic ones like US and Russia and dictatorial ones like China and Saudi Arabia.

Well, you probably can. But US/EU governments are either complete idiots or (which is more likely) not really interested in toppling the "bad" regimes with sanctions and only do so to appeal to their electorate to show that they are trying.



 

In 10 years, I am certain many of us are going to enjoy seeing what Chinese expansionism into Africa will look like. But like so many authoritarian regimes, its destined to fail at some point.



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