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Forums - Politics Discussion - Do We Really Want a New Cold War?

Mnementh said:
OTBWY said:

I'm not saying that it's all good, far from it. The US has a lot of issues. But it's not an authoritarian state like the others.

I don't know what is so good for the Chinese people, if you're talking about economic benefits sure. They had an economic boom. But in the last few years China has become more authoritarian, like implementing a 1984 esque social credit system. It's one of those things out of many that seem to look like a bad direction for that country.

I agree that there are bad things in China. But I disagree that these can be solved by conflict. On the contrary.

And life for the normal people in China got better. They would disagree with you. Their life in the 80s was much worse than it is today. So if the US implements sanctions or increases military pressure it will negatively affect the life of normal chinese citizens. And they will in this case not blame their government, but yours.

Do the Chinese people have more freedom than the people of Hong Kong?  It is not the responsibility of the US government to overthrow the CCP, 

rather it is hoped that the Chinese people will one day rise up and overthrow the CCP.



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Nighthawk117 said:
Mnementh said:

I agree that there are bad things in China. But I disagree that these can be solved by conflict. On the contrary.

And life for the normal people in China got better. They would disagree with you. Their life in the 80s was much worse than it is today. So if the US implements sanctions or increases military pressure it will negatively affect the life of normal chinese citizens. And they will in this case not blame their government, but yours.

Do the Chinese people have more freedom than the people of Hong Kong?  It is not the responsibility of the US government to overthrow the CCP, 

rather it is hoped that the Chinese people will one day rise up and overthrow the CCP.

Either that or slowly as younger people replace older in the ranks the country will change. I posted about the chinese students I met. These people may influence politics in the future. An great example is also Taiwan. That was an authoritarian government. But people were replaced slowly, and step for step the one-party system got replaced, elections allowed for new people to get elected and at some points new leaders arised. Under Chiang Kai-shek Taiwan wasn't democratic, but today it is. At no point the people overthrew the government, but it changed gradually. That can work too. It takes time though.



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Nighthawk117 said:

What? Your examples are purely examples of "Hot" Wars. Not Cold Wars.  Did the US military ever engage in combat with the Soviet military during the US-USSR Cold War? A Cold War is "war" without actual warfare.  Examples today are US relations with Iran, Venezuela, and North Korea.  

What is needed to punish China over their responsibility for the Covid-19 outbreak are sanctions, not overt warfare.  Besides, warfare between nuclear powers only ends in MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction).

All countries in the world affected by this virus should come together and enact economic sanctions against China that will last for years.

Why? A lot of countries should blame themselves/their own governments a LOT more than they blame China. Just for starters countries that had terribly orchestrated lockdowns that encouraged large swathes of people to move across the country spreading the virus are infinitely more to blame for how bad the situation got in those countries than China is.

The only thing you can evenly remotely blame on China is trying to cover up the severity of the situation. But you're an American. Your government is just as guilty of that as China's.



Ka-pi96 said:
Nighthawk117 said:

What? Your examples are purely examples of "Hot" Wars. Not Cold Wars.  Did the US military ever engage in combat with the Soviet military during the US-USSR Cold War? A Cold War is "war" without actual warfare.  Examples today are US relations with Iran, Venezuela, and North Korea.  

What is needed to punish China over their responsibility for the Covid-19 outbreak are sanctions, not overt warfare.  Besides, warfare between nuclear powers only ends in MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction).

All countries in the world affected by this virus should come together and enact economic sanctions against China that will last for years.

Why? A lot of countries should blame themselves/their own governments a LOT more than they blame China. Just for starters countries that had terribly orchestrated lockdowns that encouraged large swathes of people to move across the country spreading the virus are infinitely more to blame for how bad the situation got in those countries than China is.

The only thing you can evenly remotely blame on China is trying to cover up the severity of the situation. But you're an American. Your government is just as guilty of that as China's.

China is solely responsible for the outbreak in the first place.  It originated in Wuhan.  Tell me this, when China put Wuhan into lockdown, they shut off all travel from that city.  Roads were closed. Trains were shutdown.  They also shut down all domestic flights.  Right? The only thing they didn't shut down were international flights out of Wuhan, that was the only way out of the city, and 5 million people left that way.



Nighthawk117 said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Why? A lot of countries should blame themselves/their own governments a LOT more than they blame China. Just for starters countries that had terribly orchestrated lockdowns that encouraged large swathes of people to move across the country spreading the virus are infinitely more to blame for how bad the situation got in those countries than China is.

The only thing you can evenly remotely blame on China is trying to cover up the severity of the situation. But you're an American. Your government is just as guilty of that as China's.

China is solely responsible for the outbreak in the first place.  It originated in Wuhan.  Tell me this, when China put Wuhan into lockdown, they shut off all travel from that city.  Roads were closed. Trains were shutdown.  They also shut down all domestic flights.  Right? The only thing they didn't shut down were international flights out of Wuhan, that was the only way out of the city, and 5 million people left that way.

They're not responsible for that. It was a natural occurrence. Or do you also think countries should have placed sanctions on Iceland when a volcano in Iceland caused a load of disruption across Europe in 2010? Blaming somebody for a natural event that they had no control over is just plain stupid.

Not only did the virus get out of Wuhan before it was locked down (and before anybody was aware it was going to be a pandemic), let's not forget that international flights are a 2 way thing. Other countries could have refused flights from Wuhan, or even the whole of China, if they were worried about it. Did they? No, many did the exact opposite. They laid on extra government funded flights to get their own (potentially infected) people out of China and back to their own country. I believe many of those countries didn't even quarantine the people that came back either. That is absolutely not China's fault, that's the fault of those individual countries.



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Ka-pi96 said:
OTBWY said:

I am not so sure about that. There are a couple of things that I want to note here. The people in China say what the CCP wants them to say. It is not a free state, so there is no way of knowing how content they are with the status quo. Besides, you're talking about improvement to their lives, but even there we don't know. CCP for example claims that there is no poverty in China, how? They lowered the poverty level to 4 dollars a week. There is huge corruption there, public humiliations, punishments for things that go against party lines like watching porn, bad food hygiene, big child kidnapping numbers, violence against foreigners, horrible working conditions, bad healthcare and reliance on bogus Chinese medicine. The list goes on and on of the problems in that country. And if you ask me what a good example is, I'd say go look at Taiwan. Another Chinese country (in practice) that doesn't have those issues.

No, I definitely think that there is no other way but to sanction that country in order to topple that party. Same goes with Russia with Putin. I think appeasing them will not change anything, better yet I think it will only get worse.

Except that doesn't work either. If "sanctioning" a country was able to topple parties then North Korea wouldn't be an issue.

Not to mention that there are a whole slew of countries that wouldn't agree to any sanctions against China because it would hurt them just as much as it would hurt China.

Besides, a lot of those "problems" you listed are also present in western countries...

North Korea only survives because first the Soviet Union kept it alive and now China keeps it alive. China allows NK workers to work in China, and in turn they do business in NK. It is not isolated as you think it is.

On the other points: That is why you should never put all your production (eggs) into one country (basket).

Excuse but where else do you have a social credit system but China? Specifically western countries? What western country is a totalitarian single party ultranationalist pseudo communist state?



OTBWY said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Except that doesn't work either. If "sanctioning" a country was able to topple parties then North Korea wouldn't be an issue.

Not to mention that there are a whole slew of countries that wouldn't agree to any sanctions against China because it would hurt them just as much as it would hurt China.

Besides, a lot of those "problems" you listed are also present in western countries...

North Korea only survives because first the Soviet Union kept it alive and now China keeps it alive. China allows NK workers to work in China, and in turn they do business in NK. It is not isolated as you think it is.

On the other points: That is why you should never put all your production (eggs) into one country (basket).

Excuse but where else do you have a social credit system but China? Specifically western countries? What western country is a totalitarian single party ultranationalist pseudo communist state?

Aside from the fact that China's size would make it a lot easier to be self sufficient than North Korea, there are still plenty of countries that would trade with China, just like the USSR and China have done with North Korea, even if there were sanctions on China.

I'm not just talking about production. Plenty of countries benefit heavily from Chinese investment too. Removing that investment would damage those countries a lot as well.

While there may be no "western" country that shares all the problems that China has, some of those problems are still present. There's definitely some ultranationalism too. Plus the whole single party thing isn't necessarily a bad thing. Yes, you can certainly make a very strong argument that the Chinese communist party is a bad party to have in charge, but single party governments/dictatorships aren't inherently bad. Good dictatorships are better than bad democracies at least.

Besides, I'm sure there are plenty of "western" countries that have problems that China doesn't have. So why does China's set of problems warrant excluding it from the global community but the same isn't true of any other countries and their sets of problems?



China is winning the capitalism game playing by the rules, so I fail to see how we should "stop China" or anything like that.



OTBWY said:
The US engages in both soft power and hard power. It uses the means of subversion and slow coercion to slowly extend its influence and strengthen its position. It does invade countries or sends mercs/pmc's and they do have their online paid troll farms. China does it more in an economic sense.


It is trying to expand at the expense of others. It is extremely nationalistic and is turning slowly but surely authoritarian/dictatorial. It must be checked like any other aggressive country.

Fixed it for you



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BeardedDragon said:
Couldn't agree more with the thread creator Mnementh.
Cooperation is always better than conflict and mistrust. I can't believe some people here really believe the USA should go into a war with china lol.
What do you think a war between those countries today would look like? Do you think US would just win and china would be defeated and the problem would be solved.

A real war between the USA and china (and probably russia, leading to a ww3) could mean the end of todays modern society, even of humanity.

I am truly happy when I see some sain people online. I am absolutly shocked how many people are advocating for all-out war between nuclear nations. We are on the brink of mas-extinction and sabre-ratling should remain a thing of the past.



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