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Forums - Politics Discussion - Do We Really Want a New Cold War?

Mnementh said:
OTBWY said:

I'm gonna be very clear here, before this goes into whataboutisms. But if I had to choose between the three powers (China, Russia, the US) I would always without a doubt choose the US. My reasons, China has actual concentrations camps as we speak. In 2020. And Russia has a government that endorses this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0WHTlLwJIk

1. What has the video to do with your claims?

2. What do you think is Guantamo Bay?

3. I never claimed China or Russia are better than the US. But that is exactly the point of the article. You say: 'if I had to choose between the three powers', but the article claims (and I agree) that you shouldn't choose, but cooperate. Because that is masively better than another cold war.

1. That it is a country that uses fear like "everyone will become gay if you dont elect me". And of course, Jails and kills journalists and dissidents on a whim. 

2. At least the US is a country that has people who are against such bases and things that go on there, or have the freedom to protest it without being harmed. Don't have that much in the other two.

3. I'd rather not cooperate with dictatorships. You can make the mistake of empowering them even more.



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The US wouldn't win a war against China anyway, not without great cost. They couldn't even beat the Taliban in Afghanistan after 15+ years, they've withdrawn and the Taliban are back running large parts of the country and having been doing that even before the US left.

They couldn't get Saddam the first time and couldn't win cleanly in Vietnam either. China is a whole other ball park of trouble.

I don't know about a "Cold War", but I think China has badly damaged their standing with the Western world, not just this COVID19 situation but other issues were already bubbling to the surface. I dunno about "Cold War" ... maybe "Lukewarm posturing", lol. 



Soundwave said:

The US wouldn't win a war against China anyway, not without great cost. They couldn't even beat the Taliban in Afghanistan after 15+ years, they've withdrawn and the Taliban are back running large parts of the country and having been doing that even before the US left.

They couldn't get Saddam the first time and couldn't win cleanly in Vietnam either. China is a whole other ball park of trouble.

I don't know about a "Cold War", but I think China has badly damaged their standing with the Western world, not just this COVID19 situation but other issues were already bubbling to the surface. I dunno about "Cold War" ... maybe "Lukewarm posturing", lol. 

Those "wars" were won by the US militarily. Occupation is a different matter.



It looks really bad when the USA is one simple election away from incarcerating Sabrina Meng Wanzhou.  I looks like the rule of law can now change with an election, and I was taught that that isn't supposed to be true.  I don't think the bedrock of democracy should be the idea that we can fall back to ethno-centrism at any time if we start losing too much.  Elections are supposed to be win / win.



OTBWY said:
Soundwave said:

The US wouldn't win a war against China anyway, not without great cost. They couldn't even beat the Taliban in Afghanistan after 15+ years, they've withdrawn and the Taliban are back running large parts of the country and having been doing that even before the US left.

They couldn't get Saddam the first time and couldn't win cleanly in Vietnam either. China is a whole other ball park of trouble.

I don't know about a "Cold War", but I think China has badly damaged their standing with the Western world, not just this COVID19 situation but other issues were already bubbling to the surface. I dunno about "Cold War" ... maybe "Lukewarm posturing", lol. 

Those "wars" were won by the US militarily. Occupation is a different matter.

What comes after winning the initial wave of a war is part of the war. And the US would have no prayer of doing that to China, China is not some backwater military force, to engage them militarily straight up would incur loss of life unlike any war the US has ever been in (yes, WW2 included). China has a massive standing army with a shit ton of technology and a monstrous economy to fuel it with. 

Even a so-called "Cold War" type of scenario is something the US probably has little stomach for. 



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John2290 said:
Peh said:

People who want or demand a war should be the first in line fighting in one.

I'd sign up for that fight. It's something worth dying for.

What exactly are you hoping that will improve from wiping China off the face of the Earth?

Covid19 could have come from anywhere, also from places which would have taken much longer to figure out what was going on. Not that mattered since the rest of the world simply assumed it would stay in China, then in Italy, then in Europe, oh shit it doesn't give a crap about borders.

Perhaps your fight is with companies taking advantage of the cheap labor, which can be found in other places as well. India will gladly take over.
Perhaps your fight is with consumers going for the cheapest crap instead of choosing high quality locally manufactured items?
Perhaps your fight is with gullible people falling for Chinese twitter and other nonsense?
Perhaps your fight is with companies caving in to Chinese demands for censorship?



John2290 said:
SvennoJ said:

What exactly are you hoping that will improve from wiping China off the face of the Earth?

Covid19 could have come from anywhere, also from places which would have taken much longer to figure out what was going on. Not that mattered since the rest of the world simply assumed it would stay in China, then in Italy, then in Europe, oh shit it doesn't give a crap about borders.

Perhaps your fight is with companies taking advantage of the cheap labor, which can be found in other places as well. India will gladly take over.
Perhaps your fight is with consumers going for the cheapest crap instead of choosing high quality locally manufactured items?
Perhaps your fight is with gullible people falling for Chinese twitter and other nonsense?
Perhaps your fight is with companies caving in to Chinese demands for censorship?

I didn't say anything about wiping China off the face of the Earth, those are your words. (1) My fight is with the CCP, noone else and the PLA just happens to be the appendage of thr CCP that would have to be sliced off. Why are you apologising for China? (2) Do you have any idea what that nation has become? School yourself and you may see why this world with China going at the pace it's going is going to end up as a factory for the CCP. Capitalism might not be perfect but whatever monstrosity of a system they've Frankensteined together is pure indifference, it's no better than Hitlers national socalism and the CCP are no better than Hitler. Yet they're winning and no one has the balls to challenege them before they make half the world an indifferent factory for their gain. Go catch up on what China has become cause I can't take anyone seriously who apologises or gives them the benifet, covid or no covid, if this was 2019 my opinion would still only very minorly be changed. Covid infact, at least brought light to the CCP for the world to see the shit thry go on with. 

(1) Sadly, each war hits the leadership and the rich and mighty last. The first victims of war on both sides will be the normal people, the poor, the normal working people. So no, even if you have to pick a fight with the CCP, war is the worst way to do that.

(2) Actually a lot better compared to the time of the great leap forward and cultural revolution. People in China are *a lot* better off since then. Many have improved economically and built themself a good life. They have a lot more personal freedom to do what they want, because the economical hurdles to do that have reduced. I don't say everything is great over there. But things have never been better for the chinese people.



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OTBWY said:

3. I'd rather not cooperate with dictatorships. You can make the mistake of empowering them even more.

The US cooperates with Saudi-Arabia and other dictatorships around the world. And I dunno - China has made much improvements for it's people over the past year. I would argue that life for the normal chinese citizen was never better in general. That doesn't mean everything is fine, but what I see is a lot of improvement for the people living in China. Isn't that what you want, a better life for the people at the bottom?



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year], [1], [2], [3], [4]

Mnementh said:
OTBWY said:

3. I'd rather not cooperate with dictatorships. You can make the mistake of empowering them even more.

The US cooperates with Saudi-Arabia and other dictatorships around the world. And I dunno - China has made much improvements for it's people over the past year. I would argue that life for the normal chinese citizen was never better in general. That doesn't mean everything is fine, but what I see is a lot of improvement for the people living in China. Isn't that what you want, a better life for the people at the bottom?

Did they stop the Muslim "re-education" camps?



John2290 said:
Arguing about China in the current year must be what it felt like to a westerner in the 30's arguing about why facism was an evil that needed to be dealth with. It's so fucking crazy that people can't see the problem, I guess the CCP's infiltration of the west happened at a large and effective scale. R.I.P freedom.

We Americans can't give up our cheap TVs!