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Forums - Politics Discussion - Do We Really Want a New Cold War?

OTBWY said:
Soundwave said:

The US wouldn't win a war against China anyway, not without great cost. They couldn't even beat the Taliban in Afghanistan after 15+ years, they've withdrawn and the Taliban are back running large parts of the country and having been doing that even before the US left.

They couldn't get Saddam the first time and couldn't win cleanly in Vietnam either. China is a whole other ball park of trouble.

I don't know about a "Cold War", but I think China has badly damaged their standing with the Western world, not just this COVID19 situation but other issues were already bubbling to the surface. I dunno about "Cold War" ... maybe "Lukewarm posturing", lol. 

Those "wars" were won by the US militarily. Occupation is a different matter.

What comes after winning the initial wave of a war is part of the war. And the US would have no prayer of doing that to China, China is not some backwater military force, to engage them militarily straight up would incur loss of life unlike any war the US has ever been in (yes, WW2 included). China has a massive standing army with a shit ton of technology and a monstrous economy to fuel it with. 

Even a so-called "Cold War" type of scenario is something the US probably has little stomach for. 



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John2290 said:
Peh said:

People who want or demand a war should be the first in line fighting in one.

I'd sign up for that fight. It's something worth dying for.

What exactly are you hoping that will improve from wiping China off the face of the Earth?

Covid19 could have come from anywhere, also from places which would have taken much longer to figure out what was going on. Not that mattered since the rest of the world simply assumed it would stay in China, then in Italy, then in Europe, oh shit it doesn't give a crap about borders.

Perhaps your fight is with companies taking advantage of the cheap labor, which can be found in other places as well. India will gladly take over.
Perhaps your fight is with consumers going for the cheapest crap instead of choosing high quality locally manufactured items?
Perhaps your fight is with gullible people falling for Chinese twitter and other nonsense?
Perhaps your fight is with companies caving in to Chinese demands for censorship?



John2290 said:
SvennoJ said:

What exactly are you hoping that will improve from wiping China off the face of the Earth?

Covid19 could have come from anywhere, also from places which would have taken much longer to figure out what was going on. Not that mattered since the rest of the world simply assumed it would stay in China, then in Italy, then in Europe, oh shit it doesn't give a crap about borders.

Perhaps your fight is with companies taking advantage of the cheap labor, which can be found in other places as well. India will gladly take over.
Perhaps your fight is with consumers going for the cheapest crap instead of choosing high quality locally manufactured items?
Perhaps your fight is with gullible people falling for Chinese twitter and other nonsense?
Perhaps your fight is with companies caving in to Chinese demands for censorship?

I didn't say anything about wiping China off the face of the Earth, those are your words. (1) My fight is with the CCP, noone else and the PLA just happens to be the appendage of thr CCP that would have to be sliced off. Why are you apologising for China? (2) Do you have any idea what that nation has become? School yourself and you may see why this world with China going at the pace it's going is going to end up as a factory for the CCP. Capitalism might not be perfect but whatever monstrosity of a system they've Frankensteined together is pure indifference, it's no better than Hitlers national socalism and the CCP are no better than Hitler. Yet they're winning and no one has the balls to challenege them before they make half the world an indifferent factory for their gain. Go catch up on what China has become cause I can't take anyone seriously who apologises or gives them the benifet, covid or no covid, if this was 2019 my opinion would still only very minorly be changed. Covid infact, at least brought light to the CCP for the world to see the shit thry go on with. 

(1) Sadly, each war hits the leadership and the rich and mighty last. The first victims of war on both sides will be the normal people, the poor, the normal working people. So no, even if you have to pick a fight with the CCP, war is the worst way to do that.

(2) Actually a lot better compared to the time of the great leap forward and cultural revolution. People in China are *a lot* better off since then. Many have improved economically and built themself a good life. They have a lot more personal freedom to do what they want, because the economical hurdles to do that have reduced. I don't say everything is great over there. But things have never been better for the chinese people.



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OTBWY said:

3. I'd rather not cooperate with dictatorships. You can make the mistake of empowering them even more.

The US cooperates with Saudi-Arabia and other dictatorships around the world. And I dunno - China has made much improvements for it's people over the past year. I would argue that life for the normal chinese citizen was never better in general. That doesn't mean everything is fine, but what I see is a lot of improvement for the people living in China. Isn't that what you want, a better life for the people at the bottom?



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Mnementh said:
OTBWY said:

3. I'd rather not cooperate with dictatorships. You can make the mistake of empowering them even more.

The US cooperates with Saudi-Arabia and other dictatorships around the world. And I dunno - China has made much improvements for it's people over the past year. I would argue that life for the normal chinese citizen was never better in general. That doesn't mean everything is fine, but what I see is a lot of improvement for the people living in China. Isn't that what you want, a better life for the people at the bottom?

Did they stop the Muslim "re-education" camps?



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John2290 said:
Arguing about China in the current year must be what it felt like to a westerner in the 30's arguing about why facism was an evil that needed to be dealth with. It's so fucking crazy that people can't see the problem, I guess the CCP's infiltration of the west happened at a large and effective scale. R.I.P freedom.

We Americans can't give up our cheap TVs!



sethnintendo said:
Mnementh said:

The US cooperates with Saudi-Arabia and other dictatorships around the world. And I dunno - China has made much improvements for it's people over the past year. I would argue that life for the normal chinese citizen was never better in general. That doesn't mean everything is fine, but what I see is a lot of improvement for the people living in China. Isn't that what you want, a better life for the people at the bottom?

Did they stop the Muslim "re-education" camps?

Did I say, that everything is fine? No, I wrote it in the text you quoted. But I said things got better for most of the people. Are we at the end of the road? No, we are at the beginning. But a war, cold or hot, will not make things better about this, and it will certainly make things worse for a hundreds of millions chinese. So if your intention is to make things better, than the militaristic or even economic pressure just isn't rational.

And also, I mentioned that the US has no problem with Saudi Arabia. Saudi's de facto leader Mohammed bin Salman defended these camps.



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Mnementh said:
OTBWY said:

3. I'd rather not cooperate with dictatorships. You can make the mistake of empowering them even more.

The US cooperates with Saudi-Arabia and other dictatorships around the world. And I dunno - China has made much improvements for it's people over the past year. I would argue that life for the normal chinese citizen was never better in general. That doesn't mean everything is fine, but what I see is a lot of improvement for the people living in China. Isn't that what you want, a better life for the people at the bottom?

I'm not saying that it's all good, far from it. The US has a lot of issues. But it's not an authoritarian state like the others.

I don't know what is so good for the Chinese people, if you're talking about economic benefits sure. They had an economic boom. But in the last few years China has become more authoritarian, like implementing a 1984 esque social credit system. It's one of those things out of many that seem to look like a bad direction for that country.



OTBWY said:
China, unlike Russia, engages in soft power. It uses the means of subversion and slow coercion to slowly extend its influence and strengthen its position. It doesn't invade countries or sends mercs/pmc's like Russia does (though they do have their online paid troll farms), China does it more in an economic sense.

However, it is no different than what Russia does. It is trying to expand at the expense of others. It is extremely nationalistic and authoritarian/dictatorial. It must be checked like any other aggressive country.

Ah the arrogance, superiority complex and ignorance of Americans. Just for all the people acting all Hugh and mighty about the US and it's so called "Superior moral values," The US and Russia weren't different to the rest of the world. Both were super powers flexing their muscles and forcing countries to choose instead of letting them decide on their own. 

The US has been expanding at the expense of others, it is extremely nationalistic and more and more oligarchic by the year. The US must be checked forest and foremost as The Empire is the biggest threat to global peace and security. The US must be stopped from starting a war with China in all it's arrogance and ignorance.

The Bush regime alone is responsible for 1 million+ deaths in Iraq. And then we have how much money US made in WW1 and WW2 selling weapons to both sides. Yes US sold weapons to Nazi Germany and continued to for a long time. It didn't join the war for some moral reason, it joined because of pearl harbour and the US didn't do much in the European theatre either. Then you have all the coups and deployment of puppet rulers and dictators in South America over the centuries. Destroying Iranian democracy is also on the US's achievement list. Than you have Vietnam, and the Obama regime's attack on Libya and Syria. Afghanistan which no one understands what the reason was and they still don't, even the Americans as the Afghan papers reveal. Oh and the illegal drone strikes, producing and using more bombs than any other country, the torture programs like what they did in Abu ghuraib and do in Gitmo. 

The US has been an evil negative force internationally for a long time and it was better domestically but it's declining in that department as well. The Empire is crumbling. You know what happened when workers went on strike for this Pandemic and their treatment? The companies just used prison labour to replace them. The rich were bailed out in '08 and the poor left high and dry, and in this crisis, the same happened. Billionaires are making billions more, the stock market is happy, the government is giving them as much money as they ask for while the poor can't get simple things like emergency pay for essential workers, temporary monthly payments for those who can't work, covering the cost of their healthcare, etc. 

China is still worse domestically what with the treatment of Uyughurs but internationally, China is much better than the imperialist US and Soviet Union, for now. I would much rather have the soft power of China than the bullying of the US. And the world sees you as a much bigger threat and rightfully so. Check any polling done worldwide. The Americans need to stop acting all high and mighty and go look in the mirror. First solve the problems of your own empire before talking about another potential one. The US, just like China, is a hindrance to the high morals you speak of.



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I find it quite ironic how Americans speaking so much ill of China, whether justified or not(propaganda of the US usually makes things sound worse than they are), are not looking at the mirror and seeing the evils, corruption, greed and harm of their own empire. How their regimes have ravaged the world and caused so much harm. I agree that China's intentions are not benevolent and they have selfish desires that trump the value of human life for them but the US is worse than China in that department. The US doesn't value human life or rights either.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also