Lol industry standard. Anyway I'm curious, what games have EA and Ubisoft updated with haptic feedback, 3D audio and Japanese lip sync?

It's crazy to me that you can pay for the full game at launch, pay for the system it plays on and not get access to all the features and say it's fine to be charged for post-game support and patches.


So many questions....
Why would buy the game at launch for a system that's not even out yet
Why would you buy the game for a different system than what you want to play it on
Why don't you play the game on the system you bought it for
etc

If I buy a move on Blu-Ray, then buy a 4K-Blu-ray player, should I automatically get the 4K HDR version? There's not even an upgrade path there, industry standard... Can't upgrade to the director's cut either or buy the extended scenes as DLC.

It's crazy to me that someone could buy one of my products, then expect me to give them free upgrades when they buy a new system. Even though your ownership rights have been turned into a license with digital games, that doesn't mean you now have a license for lifetime upgrades. Your license is for the product you bought, if you want more, pay more. That's the industry standard.

It's the same in FS2020, think carefully before you buy as upgrading from base to premium or deluxe version costs a lot more than buying the premium version out right. (The smart thing to do is to get GP for a month, buy the premium version with the GP discount and you have the game to keep without without GP) I just bought the Premium version at full price, well deserved (got 3,000 hours on it already) and I simply waited with GoT until I get the system I want to play it on, so will be buying the ps5 version (full price) with everything included.

Post launch support is an industry standard though and will remain so in the future. The companies try to change these standards and we vote with our wallets.

That's why there is no upgrade path for Blu-Ray. I's not "possible" I mean, if one existed, would you not take it? You can't just download a firmware update for the player or have another layer added onto the Blu-ray. I see your point but I also don't find it comparable. Also, directors cut/extended scenes would be additional content, which I don't have an issue with anyone charging for. It is comparable DLC.  That isn't what this is. I'm not arguing the point about additional content but post launch patches and support.

Imagine Nintendo charging to use the amiibo functionality for the Switch?

Ray tracing capable machines now eh? Damn, guess any patch moving forward for functions not possible on my last console but possible on my Series X should cost?

Yeah... No. I wouldn't pay. Neither are you. That's why you're waiting.

Yes people are way to entitled these days overall, yet they do on rare occasions get hosed here and there.

To say it doesn't meet expectations due to perception doesn't make sense most of the time. As to comparing, like MS for example, what happened to MS going another direction and doing there own thing with GamePass? I thought MS didn't really care about AAA first party exclusives. Even when it comes to that 180, MS still haven't delivered, not even close, only more future promises so far. Is this gaming or politics?

Why didn't MS instantly drop Kinect, DRM, and the price by $150 when they got backlash with XB1? PS4 'set the standard' and MS took forever to just get started making changes, and an entire gen to at least turn the ship around. Is all this just bygones or does MS have to make up for it's past failures like everybody else?

Wasn't GamePass just $1 for a while? Why is it so expensive now? Why is MS being so 'anti-consumer'? Are XB owners forced to buy into GamePass? Those poor souls...

SNY offering optional extra's for a reasonable price isn't 'anti-consumer', it's actually Pro-consumer because you can save a bit by not purchasing it if you don't want those extra's. Heck, why is the PS5 'anti-consumer'? The disc drive is only like $20, so shouldn't it be more like $429 if the PS5 DE is $399? Or maybe the $399 version is a generous subsidy?

SNY gave extra for free with GOT Legends, and now they're asking a tiny bit extra if you wish to opt in beyond PS4 DLC. How is this unreasonable or unfair?

It's also clear many companies are constantly playing the, 'we hear you and care so we're making adjustments JUST FOR YOU' card, on purpose. While I don't think SNY needs to budge, it wouldn't surprise me if they did.

The upgrade path for blu-ray has long been possible, just like BC works on XBox (put in disc, download BC version). You put the disc in the player and you get access to the 4K stream. Most if not all 4K blu-ray players are capable of streaming as well. But they'll never do that as it doesn't make business sense.

This is comparable to extra content. Haptic feedback and lip sync is extra content. Why do you think its not? If you by a force feedback wheel, you need a game that supports force feedback to make use of it. If the game didn't have it, it needs to be made for it. It's extra content.

Nintendo does charge for Amiibo functionality, it's part of the price of the figurine. (That you can circumvent it is not the intended path)

Ray tracing is not standard, and it's very nice to patch it in for free, albeit very limited. Yet put in an older game, it doesn't start ray tracing all of a sudden. Should all BC capable games get free RT support?

I'm waiting for the physical ps5 release. I prefer physical over digital and I already decided long ago that I rather have the ps5 disc than the ps4 one. I did the same with GTA 5 last gen.

I don't mind paying for extra functionality. I bought DC VR edition for example, same game, downgraded, altered to make use of new hardware. It was a lot more than $10, also a lot more changes. They didn't charge for playing the base game on the headset (in 2D) same as they don't charge for playing the PS4 version on PS5 with duelsense controller. But I don't think its unreasonable to ask a fee to add content to use the new features (VR, haptic feedback)

Not sure what a companies wealth has anything to do with being charged a little fee to play a game using features that should be free in the first place. 

If you like a company to charge you more for something they can easily implement for free than i actually feel sorry for you. You are letting a company treat you like a consumer and not a customer. They know you wont go anywhere, so charging you $10 is easy and you are happy to justify it because its a game you like. Well i hope you say the same thing when it happens to games you don't like and it becomes more common with these things.

Its a very odd comparison, comparing paying for game content to system features. I don't buy season passes and i play Halo for its campaigns. I don't think i own one game that includes a season pass except for Smash Bros Ultimate and again, i have mentioned there is nothing wrong with paying for more in game content. The issue is paying for features you already own. How about Sea Of Thieves new Xpac, the game went from 30fps to 60fps at 4k on the Series X with added Disney content and they did not charge one cent to download and play it if you already own the game or have GP.

The fact you think paying for Duelsense and 3D audio justifies a fee is worrying. I don't remember paying any extra to use Dolby Atmos in games or to have the graphics improved either. I can also play Xbox games on my PC with the X1 controller and don't have to pay for the Rumble Triggers etc. You are being scammed $10 because the audience doesn't care enough. 

But hey, its your money, give them your wallet. 

Go listen to Angry Joe about the extra $10 and they all have the same logically sense that its anti consumer.

@15:44

AJ says it how it is, when asked about the PS5 features includes Haptic Feedback etc "I brought the f$#@en console for that s%#t!

Enough said.

Talk about a twist,

I think you failed at understanding whats being said here. Nothing wrong with innovations, please tell me where i said innovations isn't a good thing? I am saying paying to access innovations that you have already brought is embarrassing. Its people like that who think its a good thing to be charged extra is why companies like EA and Ubisoft continue to nickle and dime their customers and why Sony knows they can charge an extra $10 PS5 upgrade because they know you will eat it up. That's the real issue here.

GOW isn't a native PS5 upgrade, it's still running as a native PS4 game but the framerate in 4k mode has been uncapped and some minor dualsense support has been added (so good enough).

Miles Morales was a free upgrade, however Marvels Spiderman (2018) has no direct upgrade path, only one if you've purchases Miles Morales. You can pay $20 to get Marvel Spiderman Remastered if you have Miles Morales on PS4/PS5 or get the Miles Ultimate edition for $70 (convoluted I know)

Iki Island isn't a stand-alone title like Miles. Instead its just DLC and they're only releasing the complete package of GOT Directors cut at $70 for PS5 or $60 PS4. Miles Morales Ultimate edition was also $70 on PS5 and not available as a physical purchase for PS4 (so this is in line between both games). Again, If you want to upgrade  the original spiderman you pay $20 but only after you purchases Miles....

Essentially what this boils down to is sony bending over backwards to mandate that $70 price tag for all full-length PS5 releases. They don't want people to be able to use the cheaper PS4 versions as a way to bypass the higher PS5 entry price of the full package. Its completely unnecessary and a convoluted mess.

I guess that's the point we fundamentally disagree on.

You don't see adding haptic feedback (and the couple other things) as new content, I do. All actions have to be coded to give specific feedback instead of general rumble. It's not flipping a switch.

Dolby Atmos is simply a different audio format, does not require adding content.
Rumble is already in the game, it's not adding new content to have it also work on PC.

Do you you still get rumble when playing the game in BC mode? It would be odd to have that turned off but I don't know.
Haptic feedback != rumble. Different things, different implementations.

And don't worry I say the same things for all games and don't even know yet whether I like GoT or not. I haven't played it yet. And why would I care about games I don't like? I wouldn't want to play them again anyway.

Angry Joe doesn't get it either (or his sidekick), "charging you while they didn't do jack shit". Again, presuming that haptic feedback requires no work. It magically appears when the controller supports it and just because they can they turn it off so they can charge you for it. "Not worth 10 dollars for me" Then just play the ps4 version in BC mode or play it on the ps4. They say the new consoles are not that impressive anyway, then whine about not getting the not impressive features for free. Embarrassing.

I don't see it as extra content either. A function that adds to the experience, sure. Content? Nope. I do understand work needs to be done to implement it but work also needs to be done to get the game running in BC mode too. I guess it brings it back to my past point of what you said about new hardware.

"If you by a force feedback wheel, you need a game that supports force feedback to make use of it. If the game didn't have it, it needs to be made for it. It's extra content."

I mean, you think it's additional content while I believe it is a feature of the hardware and that's the core of our disagreement too. Either way, if it's in the game... they don’t charge you an additional fee for it. You paid the price to access it when you bought the wheel, the functionality is attached to that device and it's price. 

"Yet put in an older game, it doesn't start ray tracing all of a sudden. Should all BC capable games get free RT support?"

Well, no. Additional work was needed.  Additional work came in the form of a patch that unlocked new device functionality that was paid for when you bought the compatible device. Just like the force feedback wheel should. A better CPU, GPU, Monitor... etc

I worry about the precedent this sets for the future. 

Yeah, there seems to be a fundamental disconnect from reality when it comes to some arguments I'm seeing. When the entire crux of a person's argument is either hinging on the idea that adding PS5's programming and controller features doesn't count or is actually bad, you know you're not debating with someone who is using logic to fuel their points. 

Improved assets, updates to performance, better loading time, better framerates, new features, new controller functions, and in the case of Ghost of Tsushima, a whole new animation for Japanese voice overs. From what I saw the lip sync was absolutely terrible and not worth the improved cost at all, but its quality isn't the point when compared to the fact that real work was put into it and thus it is deserving of money. 

And like you and others have said, this game in particular already had a whole swath of content added to it at no charge. They did that to increase the value of the game and it worked. Now they're taking it further and decided they wanted to get paid for this upgrade. Nothing about this is anti-consumer, none of this is greedy or manipulative, it's just not as generous as some people have trained themselves to expect. that's on them, not the devs or even the publishers. 

Ehh, I worry more about the precedent Gamepass sets for the future.

Force feedback was maybe not the best example as that's an engine feature based on data that is already available, same as adding Dolby atmos support. Positional sound data is already available. For getting games to run in BC mode, it depends on compatibility but also there it's 'one' solution to get the game to run.

Now why I think haptic feedback is extra content is because every interaction has to be coded to have feedback. It's entirely different from shoot -> rumble, bump into something -> rumble. Code needs to be written to analyze the interactions and translate them to (hopefully) useful haptic feedback. You did not pay for that work by buying the hardware. Same as when you buy a HDR tv, you don't pay for HDR to be added to movies. There is auto-HDR of course, but that's nothing but a best guess while the source is still 8 bit SDR.

If the haptic feedback is nothing but auto rumble, then I would agree with you. But I think or hope that they actually went deeper into it and did the equivalent of getting new 10 bit textures for supporting HDR.

Anyway, seems this is the effect of things like auto HDR and BC enhancements, making it seem auto haptic feedback is a thing too. I don't think it is. It's extra coding for all interactions. Hence extra content, not a one time engine adjustment.

But don't worry, once this generational upgrade stuff is done, you won't have to pay extra for haptic feedback. Games will simply either have it or ignore it, just like motion controls, track pad and controller speaker.

And maybe the haptic feedback is just a pile of crap, like 1-2 Switch (I got suckered into that one). Unfortunately the debate is only about the $10. I haven't seen a single statement yet whether it's actually good or not, that is, is it worth 10 bucks or not.