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Forums - Politics Discussion - 'Heartbreaking' conditions in US migrant child camp

Lets take a look at this article about trends in migration to the US to first understand the problem without trying to blame any individual President at the time.

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/03/the-facts-on-the-increase-in-illegal-immigration/



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Pemalite said:
sundin13 said:

In order to "stop people", you would need to close the borders which would be disastrous policy. Even the Republicans wouldn't be so stupid. As previously stated, the majority of contraband enters the country not by people sneaking across the border, but by people entering legally at ports of entry. A fence isn't going to help you with that. What would help, is improving the technology available at ports of entry to be better able to detect hidden contraband. 

Except, Australia has successfully stopped drug, weapon, people trafficking for the most part... Now the main ways to traffick drugs into our nation is via boats and planes through legal means, which we screen rather heavily thanks to border force.

Secure borders absolutely works.

I can provide you with a counter-example: When the Schengen-area was created, Luxembourg got easy access both to the Netherlands (for people to go buy weed when it was still highly illegal) and to the sea (for dealers to ship in the drugs they want to sell). With the open borders and no checks whatsoever, you would think drug use went up, but it actually went down for years after the creation of the Schengen area despite the access got much easier, both for clients and dealers.



Machiavellian said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I don't think we are talking about the same thing in your first paragraph, so I will just ignore it.

Its naive to argue they don't get benefits. Otherwise many would just live in the street completely destitute. They are getting assistance. I can even find my local news, which is left leaning pointing this out. I am not arguing they get the exact same resources citizens get, but there is welfare given to them as well. https://www.azfamily.com/news/politics/arizona_politics/some-migrants-to-be-housed-in-phoenix-area-hotels-ice-confirms/article_0851a816-98b2-11eb-a24b-939a69f16722.html

Again, bitching about the GOP doesn't change the fact the open border policy is destructive and creating many problems. Border related crimes also way up, including violence.

Your comment on undocumented workers and jobs coming back, not relevant.

Really, did you read that article.  That is not welfare, that is containment before court date to either send them back over the boarder no different from any thing else.  If this is the best you could find I believe you should drop this point.  You are trying to tell me illegal immigrants can get welfare and I am telling you from first hand experience that they cannot.  Some how you are trying to convince yourself that they can secretly get welfare but you cannot find one policy within the welfare system that support benefits to undocumented people.  Somehow the government on state, local and federal is secretly giving benefits to undocumented people.

The naïve part is you talking about a subject you really have no clue on.  Why would undocumented people be on the street when we just had a discussion that they actually work.  They work way harder and longer than you probably have ever worked in your life.  Usually 2 to 3 jobs to support their family here and abroad.  Its the reason they are not on the street because they have a mission unlike the average American who has a safety net.

So basically you just ignored what the GOP is doing when they literally canceled the merit based plan you proposed and instead call me bitching because they offered really nothing of value but the same policy that has not worked.  Now that is what I can blind.  You do not know what an open boarder policy is because we never had one.  Show me this stat where border related crime is way up.  Way up over what and who are the perpetrators.

Yeah, you are putting words in my mouth. Also, playing semantics. But for sake of not wanting to drag this on, I can move on.

You seem to think all illegals are equal. I assure you they are not.

You have Google? Go search facts. I mean if you're under the illusion border related crime is stagnant... then we really don't have to continue. This is why I limit political debates. It doesn't matter how bad things clearly have gotten in a short period of time and what stats show, there will always be people making excuses because politics is a team sport.



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sundin13 said:
Pemalite said:

Except, Australia has successfully stopped drug, weapon, people trafficking for the most part... Now the main ways to traffick drugs into our nation is via boats and planes through legal means, which we screen rather heavily thanks to border force.

Prior to that we had 51,000 people illegally come to our shores during the previous government term, they brought with them guns, drugs, disease, pests and other issues with them.
Thousands died at sea trying to get here... And I do Marine Rescue. - So I am directly involved in assisting these individuals when they fall into our response area... And I can assure you, their safety was at risk. It's not just our safety. It's everyone's.

That doesn't mean we don't want those people here... Far from it. We want them to follow our rules and regulations so we can screen-out extremism and criminals... And we have a framework for that.

Secure borders absolutely works.

sundin13 said:

As for your comment about how every nation needs secure borders for the safety of the citizens, immigrants, both documented and undocumented, commit less violent crime that natural born citizens. If we want to act in the interest of safety, it would perhaps be best to deport the Americans and let the immigrants have the country. While there is certainly some criminality which crosses the border (as mentioned above), a fence is a pretty piss poor way of combatting it (as mentioned above). 

It is absolutely about safety and control.

How many people have illegally crossed the USA border without any regards for COVID? Hundreds of thousands I imagine.
It's not -just- about crime rate.  - Being safe and secure is a much larger umbrella than your deduction to a binary issue.

Except Australia is a fucking island, my guy. What are you trying to prove? No shit it's borders are more secure than America's. It's only real neighbors are fish. 

My point stands that the focus of Republicans is misguided and would not address the most pressing issues. And if you want to address issues like the dangers of an uninsured, undocumented population, a lot of proposed Democrat reforms would help with this, such as Universal Healthcare, improving the asylum system and aiding in improving conditions in Central American countries. "

The fact is, Democrats are presenting real solutions to a lot of immigration related issues, while Republicans are yelling "BIG WALL! BIG WALL!", taking the most braindead approach to immigration and spending a ton of money to miss nearly the entire fucking problem.

You don't prevent immigration just by watching the borders per se. Actually throwing people out when found in the country is also worth considering. But even violent criminals manage to avoid being thrown out. There are countless examples of illegals being arrested over and over again until they do something truly heinous.

Universal healthcare doesn't exist now. We need to create it for illegals? Is that in the budget? I see trillions of spending and still no universal healthcare.

Again, "big wall" isn't the only aspect of controlling illegal immigration. Enforcing many existing laws could also help. The democrat solution also seems to require spending a lot of money and I'm not sure how it benefits the country as we see it now.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

Really, did you read that article.  That is not welfare, that is containment before court date to either send them back over the boarder no different from any thing else.  If this is the best you could find I believe you should drop this point.  You are trying to tell me illegal immigrants can get welfare and I am telling you from first hand experience that they cannot.  Some how you are trying to convince yourself that they can secretly get welfare but you cannot find one policy within the welfare system that support benefits to undocumented people.  Somehow the government on state, local and federal is secretly giving benefits to undocumented people.

The naïve part is you talking about a subject you really have no clue on.  Why would undocumented people be on the street when we just had a discussion that they actually work.  They work way harder and longer than you probably have ever worked in your life.  Usually 2 to 3 jobs to support their family here and abroad.  Its the reason they are not on the street because they have a mission unlike the average American who has a safety net.

So basically you just ignored what the GOP is doing when they literally canceled the merit based plan you proposed and instead call me bitching because they offered really nothing of value but the same policy that has not worked.  Now that is what I can blind.  You do not know what an open boarder policy is because we never had one.  Show me this stat where border related crime is way up.  Way up over what and who are the perpetrators.

Yeah, you are putting words in my mouth. Also, playing semantics. But for sake of not wanting to drag this on, I can move on.

You seem to think all illegals are equal. I assure you they are not.

You have Google? Go search facts. I mean if you're under the illusion border related crime is stagnant... then we really don't have to continue. This is why I limit political debates. It doesn't matter how bad things clearly have gotten in a short period of time and what stats show, there will always be people making excuses because politics is a team sport.

No I do not think all illegals are equal, I am saying the system in place today uses illegal immigrants who cross the southern boarder as cheap labor.  That this practice has been going on for decades.  The current system vilify this group while also taking advantage of their service because its nice politics.  Its always and will be nice politics because Americans need something to hate or blame.  The crazy part is that the stats show that the majority of illegal immigrants are not even the ones coming over the southern boarder but the ones flying, driving or on a boat and out stay their visa.  The thing is, the ones coming from those sh*thold countries make better politics.

Yes, I have google but then again since I did not see any rise in crime, as I checked government and state stats, it was a waste of my time to argue with you on it.  The only thing that has gone up is undocumented children left at the boarder but then again this is nothing new and is a trend as shone by the document I posted.  



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Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

Except Australia is a fucking island, my guy. What are you trying to prove? No shit it's borders are more secure than America's. It's only real neighbors are fish. 

My point stands that the focus of Republicans is misguided and would not address the most pressing issues. And if you want to address issues like the dangers of an uninsured, undocumented population, a lot of proposed Democrat reforms would help with this, such as Universal Healthcare, improving the asylum system and aiding in improving conditions in Central American countries. "

The fact is, Democrats are presenting real solutions to a lot of immigration related issues, while Republicans are yelling "BIG WALL! BIG WALL!", taking the most braindead approach to immigration and spending a ton of money to miss nearly the entire fucking problem.

You don't prevent immigration just by watching the borders per se. Actually throwing people out when found in the country is also worth considering. But even violent criminals manage to avoid being thrown out. There are countless examples of illegals being arrested over and over again until they do something truly heinous.

Universal healthcare doesn't exist now. We need to create it for illegals? Is that in the budget? I see trillions of spending and still no universal healthcare.

Again, "big wall" isn't the only aspect of controlling illegal immigration. Enforcing many existing laws could also help. The democrat solution also seems to require spending a lot of money and I'm not sure how it benefits the country as we see it now.

The primary Immigration strategy under Obama was the ejection of criminal undocumented immigrants through the formal removal process (as opposed to the non-compulsory Return process which often results in people being "arrested over and over again until they do something truly heinous"). Under Bush, 2 million people were formally removed from the country, while under Obama, that number increased to 3 million. Of that 3 million, about 77% were considered "first priority removals", which largely encompasses national security threats and felons (despite illegal immigration being higher under Bush and spiking again under Trump). This means that Obama removed more high priority individuals than Bush removed total. Under Trump, for the three years with available data, all three fell below Obama's average. 

So again I ask you, what exactly are you complaining about? Democratic leadership has shown that they prioritize the removal of those who pose a danger to American citizens, and do it more successfully than Republican leadership.

As for Universal healthcare, we need to create it for everyone who is uninsured or underinsured or struggling to pay for adequate insurance. For reasons that should be pretty clear from a public health perspective, Americans are more safe when everybody is covered. If you want to address the danger of an uninsured population, the best way to go about it is by insuring them. If you are implying that you fail to see a benefit to Universal Health Care, you clearly aren't looking.



Machiavellian said:

Come on, you are in the middle of the ocean.  Lets not act as if you have the same issue any other nation has. 

Correct. We have a natural border, but one thing I learned from my Diploma of Leadership and Emergency management is that you take an all-hazards approach to an issue, so you can apply a set of principles in one location to another.

Essentially, if you can secure your border, you can dissuade illegal immigrants from making a potential dangerous trek and putting their lives at risk. It -is- about life.

Machiavellian said:

51K is a drop in the bucket for the amount of traffic that come in and out of the US within one day, hell, I would say in 2 hours.


Whilst yes, 51k is a small drop in the bucket comparatively, you also need to remember Australia's base population is only 25~ million, which comparative to the USA, is also a drop in the bucket.

USA is operating on a much larger scale than we are on everything here.

But the record speaks for itself, we solved the issue.

Machiavellian said:

Also, from what I have read, Australia has a huge drug problem based on population.

Interesting that you didn't take per-capita statistics into account with the prior point...

However, USA definitely beats us in drug prevalence.

Opiates: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_prevalence_of_opiates_use

Marijuana: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_cannabis_use_by_country

Cocaine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_prevalence_of_cocaine_use

Do we have a huge drug problem? Absolutely. But still better than the USA.

Our issue is that we have a land area roughly the same size as contiguous USA, but with a population that is 25~ million verses 328~ million.
That is allot of land-area to hide shit in for local manufacturing/growing.

So it isn't a border issue, it's a localized issue. - And we are working on it.

I cover the entire region 6 area as a first responder which covers about 188,000 square kilometers/116,800 square miles and in about a year, the Police might get a pallets worth of drugs for me to burn, sometimes two.
Different scales.

But you can still take the same all-hazards approach as it's scalable.

Machiavellian said:

 As stated, Australia is not the US and trying to make it seem as if they are the same is an overstatement of the size in population between the two and the amount of traffic of populated cities within the 2 nations.  Its not apples to apples.

You are correct that Australia is not the USA... And I am absolutely 100% glad it is not.

Just secure your borders and save lives, because this issue has been going on for decades where we solved it a long time ago.

sundin13 said:

Except Australia is a fucking island, my guy. What are you trying to prove? No shit it's borders are more secure than America's. It's only real neighbors are fish. 

That it can be done.
Ocean or not, people still crossed it. Allot.

And that is why we implemented the Pacific solution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Solution

sundin13 said:

My point stands that the focus of Republicans is misguided and would not address the most pressing issues. And if you want to address issues like the dangers of an uninsured, undocumented population, a lot of proposed Democrat reforms would help with this, such as Universal Healthcare, improving the asylum system and aiding in improving conditions in Central American countries. "

I am fully supportive of Universal Healthcare, I have enjoyed it's benefits my entire life.
I also believe it should be a fundamental human right.

I'm not a republican nor a democrat remember.

I also believe the USA should implement Gun control, statistics have proven how successful it is.

sundin13 said:

The fact is, Democrats are presenting real solutions to a lot of immigration related issues, while Republicans are yelling "BIG WALL! BIG WALL!", taking the most braindead approach to immigration and spending a ton of money to miss nearly the entire fucking problem.

My point is that the shit-flinging between the Democrats and Republicans needs to stop, it's getting immature at this point.
The *real* solution is likely somewhere in the middle which brings in aspects from both sides of the political divide. - The wall will absolutely help, but it is only -one- tool, not the entire solution.

Which again... Is my point. The left-wing and right-wing here eventually settled on the Pacific solution as the right solution for our issues, but it brought forth key aspects from both the left and the rights political mandates.

Plus the cost of the wall should ultimately be redundant anyway, especially at the moment.
One of the best ways to stimulate the economy is to invest in infrastructure/nation building programs, which this walls falls under. It's jobs.

Bofferbrauer2 said:

I can provide you with a counter-example: When the Schengen-area was created, Luxembourg got easy access both to the Netherlands (for people to go buy weed when it was still highly illegal) and to the sea (for dealers to ship in the drugs they want to sell). With the open borders and no checks whatsoever, you would think drug use went up, but it actually went down for years after the creation of the Schengen area despite the access got much easier, both for clients and dealers.

What other influences were at play? Was there an increase in wages, job availability, education and general standard of living?

People living in poor conditions tend to be more prone to drug use as a recreational tool.

However, drugs aren't the only issue that illegal immigrants bring in, this is just nitpicking at an aspect... But I will absolutely look into the case-scenario you mentioned.

Mr Puggsly said:

You don't prevent immigration just by watching the borders per se. Actually throwing people out when found in the country is also worth considering. But even violent criminals manage to avoid being thrown out. There are countless examples of illegals being arrested over and over again until they do something truly heinous.

Universal healthcare doesn't exist now. We need to create it for illegals? Is that in the budget? I see trillions of spending and still no universal healthcare.

Again, "big wall" isn't the only aspect of controlling illegal immigration. Enforcing many existing laws could also help. The democrat solution also seems to require spending a lot of money and I'm not sure how it benefits the country as we see it now.

This was part of our policy here.

People are less likely to "make the trip" if they are only going to be turned around on arrival.

People smugglers earn thousands by smuggling people in, that business model tends to collapse when their customers get turned around and sent back home.

And smuggling people, is a business. A very lucrative one.

-Universal healthcare shouldn't discriminate, doesn't matter if you are tourist, traveling from overseas, illegal immigrant, you should be able to walk into any health clinic and seek the assistance you require, no questions or bullshit. - It needs to be quick, effective and efficient... And ultimately (the dream idea), world wide.

Yes those people will add costs to the system... However if the system is working appropriately, the total cost of healthcare for the *entire* nation should be lower anyway.
Healthcare should be a fundamental human right so people have the opportunity to succeed in life, not become a financial issue.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Machiavellian said:

Come on, you are in the middle of the ocean.  Lets not act as if you have the same issue any other nation has. 

Correct. We have a natural border, but one thing I learned from my Diploma of Leadership and Emergency management is that you take an all-hazards approach to an issue, so you can apply a set of principles in one location to another.

Essentially, if you can secure your border, you can dissuade illegal immigrants from making a potential dangerous trek and putting their lives at risk. It -is- about life.

I am not sure you get it.  Trying to compare Australia to the US seems far fetched.  Your country does not even come close to the amount of traffic that goes through the US within one hour compared to one year in your country.  Saying you secured your boarder when you are in the middle of nowhere where you catch the occasional boat full of people seems unrealistic.  Just the port of entry alone between the 2 nations and scale is totally different.  Let not act as if securing Australia boarder is the same as securing any mainland country.

Machiavellian said:

51K is a drop in the bucket for the amount of traffic that come in and out of the US within one day, hell, I would say in 2 hours.


Whilst yes, 51k is a small drop in the bucket comparatively, you also need to remember Australia's base population is only 25~ million, which comparative to the USA, is also a drop in the bucket.

USA is operating on a much larger scale than we are on everything here.

But the record speaks for itself, we solved the issue.

You solving an issue that really not an issue because you are in the middle of the ocean is nothing to proclaim.  The volume just not there to make an apples to apples comparison.  Its as if you were a nation on the moon and saying we solved illegal immigration because you see a ship every 2 years.

Machiavellian said:

Also, from what I have read, Australia has a huge drug problem based on population.

Interesting that you didn't take per-capita statistics into account with the prior point...

However, USA definitely beats us in drug prevalence.

Opiates: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_prevalence_of_opiates_use

Marijuana: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_cannabis_use_by_country

Cocaine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_prevalence_of_cocaine_use

Do we have a huge drug problem? Absolutely. But still better than the USA.

Sniped

Well of course its better than the US when you have the population the size of one state in the middle of the ocean.  At the end of the day, if you have an issue does it really matter if you are better than your neighbor.  You still have an issue.  The way you made your previous statement you basically asserted that you solved drug issues but that doesn't seem to be the case.  

Machiavellian said:

 As stated, Australia is not the US and trying to make it seem as if they are the same is an overstatement of the size in population between the two and the amount of traffic of populated cities within the 2 nations.  Its not apples to apples.

You are correct that Australia is not the USA... And I am absolutely 100% glad it is not.

Just secure your borders and save lives, because this issue has been going on for decades where we solved it a long time ago.

You should be thankful you are in the middle of nowhere.  Be happy you do not have mainland problems.  Just do not have this smug attitude as if you accomplish something because there is no challenge to your boarders.  You are basically a nation the size of one state in the US hopefully for you it remains that way.  I am happy you secured your boarders from the wayward boat that attempts to cross the sea to get to your island.


 My point is that the shit-flinging between the Democrats and Republicans needs to stop, it's getting immature at this point.

The *real* solution is likely somewhere in the middle which brings in aspects from both sides of the political divide. - The wall will absolutely help, but it is only -one- tool, not the entire solution.

Which again... Is my point. The left-wing and right-wing here eventually settled on the Pacific solution as the right solution for our issues, but it brought forth key aspects from both the left and the rights political mandates.

Plus the cost of the wall should ultimately be redundant anyway, especially at the moment.
One of the best ways to stimulate the economy is to invest in infrastructure/nation building programs, which this walls falls under. It's jobs.

Yeah, that is not going to happen until all the old heads die out and leave the political scene.  When that happens maybe we will in another 50 years have more balance parties with new faces and fresh ideals.  Instead, Americans who vote which are the old heads, continue to vote old heads in congress and we continue to have the same dumb sh*t we see today.

The wall doesn't work, it would probably be more productive to upgrade the standard of living in South America then it would be to waste billions on trying to create more walls in places where the landscape isn't ideal.  Then you have to secure all that space with people which then again cost billions of dollars.  We have had walls for decades and it basically only stop the unorganized traveler.

Last edited by Machiavellian - on 30 June 2021

Pemalite said:
sundin13 said:

Except Australia is a fucking island, my guy. What are you trying to prove? No shit it's borders are more secure than America's. It's only real neighbors are fish. 

That it can be done.
Ocean or not, people still crossed it. Allot.

And that is why we implemented the Pacific solution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Solution

sundin13 said:

The fact is, Democrats are presenting real solutions to a lot of immigration related issues, while Republicans are yelling "BIG WALL! BIG WALL!", taking the most braindead approach to immigration and spending a ton of money to miss nearly the entire fucking problem.

My point is that the shit-flinging between the Democrats and Republicans needs to stop, it's getting immature at this point.
The *real* solution is likely somewhere in the middle which brings in aspects from both sides of the political divide. - The wall will absolutely help, but it is only -one- tool, not the entire solution.

Which again... Is my point. The left-wing and right-wing here eventually settled on the Pacific solution as the right solution for our issues, but it brought forth key aspects from both the left and the rights political mandates.

Plus the cost of the wall should ultimately be redundant anyway, especially at the moment.
One of the best ways to stimulate the economy is to invest in infrastructure/nation building programs, which this walls falls under. It's jobs.

According to that link, "The Pacific Solution" was a means of dealing with asylum seekers. Asylum is a legal process and is not the same as illegal immigration. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem if we had adequately funded holding centers and a quick process that was able to handle asylum claims. Such a thing does not exist in the US, and the Republican party does not seem to have any interest in any step of the process (Accepting asylum seekers, holding asylum seekers and processing asylum claims). 

As for the wall, the claim that it would "absolutely help" is dubious. The reason most of these areas are lacking walls is because they have natural borders are are generally considered low traffic areas (in some areas, we would literally have to build a wall over a mountain). We already have walls in the areas that need walls. It would be like in Australia if you built a big wall in the ocean. Sure, it might stop someone, but it wouldn't really provide much value for the cost, and the movement of people shouldn't be considered a high priority, because it doesn't really cause much harm. The main criticism of the wall is that it is burning money that could be spent elsewhere just so the Republicans can feel good. There is also the environmental cost to consider.

Overall, the Repubicans never presented anything demonstrating that the wall would do literally anything to help, and neither have you.



sundin13 said:

According to that link, "The Pacific Solution" was a means of dealing with asylum seekers. Asylum is a legal process and is not the same as illegal immigration. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem if we had adequately funded holding centers and a quick process that was able to handle asylum claims. Such a thing does not exist in the US, and the Republican party does not seem to have any interest in any step of the process (Accepting asylum seekers, holding asylum seekers and processing asylum claims). 

These specific asylum seekers were seeking Asylum in our country via non legal means.

They have every right to seek Asylum, but they do not have the right to illegally cross our borders and take up residence and bypass all our checks and balances that keeps us safe and secure.

sundin13 said:

As for the wall, the claim that it would "absolutely help" is dubious. The reason most of these areas are lacking walls is because they have natural borders are are generally considered low traffic areas (in some areas, we would literally have to build a wall over a mountain). We already have walls in the areas that need walls.

Look, I haven't claimed the wall is going to solve every single migratory issue in the United States, it simply cannot and will not.
But it is "part of the puzzle".

These kinds of issues need multiple vectors of attack to solve.

Again, cost shouldn't be an issue, the USA is supposed to be the greatest economy on Earth... And infrastructure projects tend to be stimulating for an economy anyway.

If you already have enough walls, then great, start doing an assessment on weak points and bolster those.

sundin13 said:

 It would be like in Australia if you built a big wall in the ocean. Sure, it might stop someone, but it wouldn't really provide much value for the cost, and the movement of people shouldn't be considered a high priority, because it doesn't really cause much harm. The main criticism of the wall is that it is burning money that could be spent elsewhere just so the Republicans can feel good. There is also the environmental cost to consider.

We intercept those out at sea and turn them around.

However we have built the worlds longest fence for bio-security reasons. Why? Because it works. Was it cheap? No. But, neither is security in general, like all infrastructure it's the long term you need to look towards, rather than the short term political issues.

sundin13 said:

Overall, the Repubicans never presented anything demonstrating that the wall would do literally anything to help, and neither have you.

The thing with your "do nothing" approach, is it's not proactive, it's not going to change the status quo.
That is ultimately the difference here.

Neither have I asserted that the wall is going to cure all migratory issues in the USA, it's just one tool that is needed to compliment other approaches to have a systemic and effective, long-term solution.

Machiavellian said:

I am not sure you get it.  Trying to compare Australia to the US seems far fetched.  Your country does not even come close to the amount of traffic that goes through the US within one hour compared to one year in your country.  Saying you secured your boarder when you are in the middle of nowhere where you catch the occasional boat full of people seems unrealistic.  Just the port of entry alone between the 2 nations and scale is totally different.  Let not act as if securing Australia boarder is the same as securing any mainland country.

On the contrary. YOU are not getting it.
The differences between the USA and Australia is irrelevant.

Machiavellian said:

You solving an issue that really not an issue because you are in the middle of the ocean is nothing to proclaim.  The volume just not there to make an apples to apples comparison.  Its as if you were a nation on the moon and saying we solved illegal immigration because you see a ship every 2 years.

People dying trying to illegally come here is a big fucking issue. We are talking thousands dead.

Again, you are missing the point of an "all hazards approach".

We stopped illegal immigration in our country. - The scales we are talking about are absolutely different, but again, are also absolutely irrelevant to the point at hand.

We went from 800~ boats a year down to 20~ boats a year due to change of border policy.

I probably do not need to mention that I am-in fact on the front lines of this issue in my nation due to my particular roles in deep-sea marine rescue, I have seen this first hand.

Machiavellian said:

Well of course its better than the US when you have the population the size of one state in the middle of the ocean.  At the end of the day, if you have an issue does it really matter if you are better than your neighbor.  You still have an issue.  The way you made your previous statement you basically asserted that you solved drug issues but that doesn't seem to be the case.  

*Sigh* you really don't understand the mathematical point of per-capita statistics do you?
Overall population size is thus irrelevant, that's just an argument that someone enjoys using because they don't wish to extrapolate comparative statistics.

In the end...
We solved gun-related crime in this country.
We have reduced our drug-related crime in this country, with more work being done on this front.
We solved illegal immigration in this country.

But you know, apparently it's all irrelevant? Give me a break, the USA needs to start looking towards successful models and start scaling it up instead of incessant complaining in order to retain the status quo, whilst complaining about the status quo. It's toxic circular rhetoric.

Machiavellian said:

You should be thankful you are in the middle of nowhere.  Be happy you do not have mainland problems.  Just do not have this smug attitude as if you accomplish something because there is no challenge to your boarders.  You are basically a nation the size of one state in the US hopefully for you it remains that way.  I am happy you secured your boarders from the wayward boat that attempts to cross the sea to get to your island.

I am absolutely thankful to be living in one of the greatest, freedom loving, equal, countries on Earth which seems to be able to competently solve more issues than the largest economy on earth. (Universal Healthcare, Gun Control, Border control, etc'.)

It wasn't that hard.

Know how we did it? We don't shut off "ideas" simply because they are right wing or left wing aka. Republican vs Democrat. - We weigh policy based on it's individual merits for the benefit of the entire nation.








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