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Forums - Politics Discussion - 'Heartbreaking' conditions in US migrant child camp

Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

You know its even difficult to find statistics about what crime is committed by illegals or how many are incarcerated. This is done on purpose to keep people ignorant.

If people don't want secure borders or safety in general you begin to question what their movies actually are. Because rising crime and higher cost of living doesn't seem to be a concern. All things that affect the poor more.

Not really.
I work with police and border force often as I do fire and rescue, so I have a "little" inside knowledge.

Basically the statistics are formulated based around real-world incidents and reports... And is not statistically extrapolated in order to "assume" anything on a larger scale.
So those who succeed in illegal border crossing and drug smuggling will not be included in the statistics. Just can't.
Crossing the border and ending up caught by a different agency (Or maybe even a different branch of the same agency, depending how coherently the agencies work in the USA) may not be reflected in the statistics either.

There tends to be a paper trail for everything.

Plus as people we shouldn't be making up conspiracies either, that is something that the people seem to be doing more often these days thanks to big personalities like Trump.

I'm talking about information where numbers should exist. Number of people incarcerated that are illegals should be numbers we have. Just as an example, California is the only state in the US that doesn't release the number of abortions that occur (spoiler: they would be the highest). One of the states that would have the highest crime committed by illegals is also California, coincidentally they aren't sharing that information. The less we know the better, could encourage white supremacy.



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Machiavellian said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I am pointing out there is much anger about the exploitation of workers these days. My advice, don't give employers more power with cheap labor. If you don't think illegals are getting government welfare in some form, you don't pay much attention to what's happening. Even dealing and caring for them is a burden.

I agree we take advantage of cheap labor overseas mostly. But do we benefit an abundance of cheap labor in this country? Depends on your perspective. But the poor are objectively great for votes and always looking for free stuff dems promise. Meanwhile dems are also playing a significant role in the cost of living going up which hurts the poor, its kinda hilarious to watch.

You can oppose how GOP has handled immigration and also feel what the dems are currently doing is destructive and lowers quality of life in the US. You aren't obligated to pick a side as good, but one is objectively worse for the country.

The crime issue is more of a local thing and a bigger problem in blue areas. So you would have to look at their awful policies. My concern isn't just the big companies getting richer, its also what they're doing with their power. But since they shill for dems, people are ignoring what they do. Open borders does not equal let people come in who want to work. You actually have a more libertarian perspective than what dems are doing.

The problem is that its already late in the game for not giving employers power to hire cheap labor because this is not something that manifested itself over the course of a few years but has become institutionalized within the US for decades.  Its not different then sending out manufacturing to other nations due to cost.  Politically it sound all good and give people something to fear and hate but buying habits would need to change significantly before any of those jobs make themselves back to the US because the US depends on cheap products as they do with cheap labor.

You show me what stat shows an undocumented person receiving any government benefit.  I am not making this statement on some guess, I know for a fact that you cannot get anything.  You cannot get any type of food stamps or welfare subsidies because I know many undocumented people.  How exactly are they going to receive these benefits with no SS, worker permit or any form of government or state ID.  Even state wise its hard to get anything and unless marry someone who is an American, then you can get your children benefits but the undocumented work No.

Who said anything about which side is good.  I stated that what you mentioned was rejected by the GOP.  When giving the choice to bring some change to the system, they instead are more than happy to keep it the way it is even knowing they are feeding their constitutes BS.  The current GOP is the party of fear because it works.  They continue to feed BS and slight of hand magic tricks.  They fully know about the unskilled labor and undocumented workers but its their agenda to vilify the group while reaping the rewards.

You say that undocumented workers are worse for the country is that your stance because if it is, then its pretty much you living in a bubble.  Keep believing in that fairytale just like people continue to believe that those manufacturing jobs will be coming back to the US.  Its always good theater.

As for the crime point, I will address that one later as I probably should stay on topic as these post can get long.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing in your first paragraph, so I will just ignore it.

Its naive to argue they don't get benefits. Otherwise many would just live in the street completely destitute. They are getting assistance. I can even find my local news, which is left leaning pointing this out. I am not arguing they get the exact same resources citizens get, but there is welfare given to them as well. https://www.azfamily.com/news/politics/arizona_politics/some-migrants-to-be-housed-in-phoenix-area-hotels-ice-confirms/article_0851a816-98b2-11eb-a24b-939a69f16722.html

Again, bitching about the GOP doesn't change the fact the open border policy is destructive and creating many problems. Border related crimes also way up, including violence.

Your comment on undocumented workers and jobs coming back, not relevant.



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Pemalite said:
Machiavellian said:

What exactly make you think that drug cartels just walk their merchandise over the boarder.  No, they drive and ship it over just like they always have.  You really believe some mule is bringing over the boarder and smuggling illegally all the drugs  to the US on the back of some illegal immigrant.  That type of illegal drugs is a drop of sand compared to what gets sent here legally.  Lets not kid ourselves in believing that the amount of illegal immigrants coming illegally by building a tunnel or climbing a ladder is the main entry point of drugs in the US.  Drugs cartel have not relied on that method for decades.

-which requires people-

Drug cartels rely on -every- single possible entry point to get volume across.

Yeah they do but the majority of their product comes legally.  There has been and never will be any shortage of drugs in the US just like there will never be any shortage of guns in the US.  Both arrive here just as legal as your average toaster.  If you believe that the southern boarder is the main entry point for drugs in the US, well, I am guessing you do not live here.  This is not Australia and trying to take your experience there and apply it here just does not work.  These are intrinsic issues and drug cartels know the US like the back of their hands.  The cartel move drugs here legally because they have huge cash reserves and its much easier to just pay for legal transport then to rely on some mule to cross the boarder and get caught.  How often do you ever hear about some illegal immigrant on the southern boarder getting caught with drugs.  They catch a lot crossing over the boarder illegally you do know that.



Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

The problem is that its already late in the game for not giving employers power to hire cheap labor because this is not something that manifested itself over the course of a few years but has become institutionalized within the US for decades.  Its not different then sending out manufacturing to other nations due to cost.  Politically it sound all good and give people something to fear and hate but buying habits would need to change significantly before any of those jobs make themselves back to the US because the US depends on cheap products as they do with cheap labor.

You show me what stat shows an undocumented person receiving any government benefit.  I am not making this statement on some guess, I know for a fact that you cannot get anything.  You cannot get any type of food stamps or welfare subsidies because I know many undocumented people.  How exactly are they going to receive these benefits with no SS, worker permit or any form of government or state ID.  Even state wise its hard to get anything and unless marry someone who is an American, then you can get your children benefits but the undocumented work No.

Who said anything about which side is good.  I stated that what you mentioned was rejected by the GOP.  When giving the choice to bring some change to the system, they instead are more than happy to keep it the way it is even knowing they are feeding their constitutes BS.  The current GOP is the party of fear because it works.  They continue to feed BS and slight of hand magic tricks.  They fully know about the unskilled labor and undocumented workers but its their agenda to vilify the group while reaping the rewards.

You say that undocumented workers are worse for the country is that your stance because if it is, then its pretty much you living in a bubble.  Keep believing in that fairytale just like people continue to believe that those manufacturing jobs will be coming back to the US.  Its always good theater.

As for the crime point, I will address that one later as I probably should stay on topic as these post can get long.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing in your first paragraph, so I will just ignore it.

Its naive to argue they don't get benefits. Otherwise many would just live in the street completely destitute. They are getting assistance. I can even find my local news, which is left leaning pointing this out. I am not arguing they get the exact same resources citizens get, but there is welfare given to them as well. https://www.azfamily.com/news/politics/arizona_politics/some-migrants-to-be-housed-in-phoenix-area-hotels-ice-confirms/article_0851a816-98b2-11eb-a24b-939a69f16722.html

Again, bitching about the GOP doesn't change the fact the open border policy is destructive and creating many problems. Border related crimes also way up, including violence.

Your comment on undocumented workers and jobs coming back, not relevant.

Really, did you read that article.  That is not welfare, that is containment before court date to either send them back over the boarder no different from any thing else.  If this is the best you could find I believe you should drop this point.  You are trying to tell me illegal immigrants can get welfare and I am telling you from first hand experience that they cannot.  Some how you are trying to convince yourself that they can secretly get welfare but you cannot find one policy within the welfare system that support benefits to undocumented people.  Somehow the government on state, local and federal is secretly giving benefits to undocumented people.

The naïve part is you talking about a subject you really have no clue on.  Why would undocumented people be on the street when we just had a discussion that they actually work.  They work way harder and longer than you probably have ever worked in your life.  Usually 2 to 3 jobs to support their family here and abroad.  Its the reason they are not on the street because they have a mission unlike the average American who has a safety net.

So basically you just ignored what the GOP is doing when they literally canceled the merit based plan you proposed and instead call me bitching because they offered really nothing of value but the same policy that has not worked.  Now that is what I can blind.  You do not know what an open boarder policy is because we never had one.  Show me this stat where border related crime is way up.  Way up over what and who are the perpetrators.



Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

lol, cheap labor has been flooding into the US longer than you have been on this earth.  You act as if this was something that happen only during Trump or Biden term but this been happening for decades.  This notion that you can get welfare when you are undocumented is the dumbest thing the conservatives have fostered.  I know for a fact, you cannot get any government services if you are undocumented.  That's another dumb as lie used to keep you in fear.

What you are missing is that the US thrives on cheap labor because the US citizens thrive on cheap goods and services.  The same people who complain about China, Mexico and India taking jobs are the same people who purchase goods and services made from those countries because they are cheaper.

I stated the GOP because when it was put to Congress to give them a path to citizenship, to allow them to get workers permit to cross the boarder and work within the US, it was the do nothing party which is the GOP that shot it down.  So you tell me why, did they shoot down such a plan.  You would be surprise that many actually do not want to stay in the US, they would be happy to just work and use that money to help their family.

Crime skyrocking, show me what was the policy that cause crime to skyrocket and cost of living to go up.  Big business getting richer but this is the left doing, hmmm can you also show me the policy that helped that happen.  Why not open the boarder, give people who want to work, work permits, you would be surprised that most actually do not want to stay in the US, they just want to work, make some money and send it back to their family get them to actually contribute to paying city, state and federal taxes or we can continue to just let things stay as they do.  This game has been played for so long.  

I am pointing out there is much anger about the exploitation of workers these days. My advice, don't give employers more power with cheap labor. If you don't think illegals are getting government welfare in some form, you don't pay much attention to what's happening. Even dealing and caring for them is a burden.

I agree we take advantage of cheap labor overseas mostly. But do we benefit an abundance of cheap labor in this country? Depends on your perspective. But the poor are objectively great for votes and always looking for free stuff dems promise. Meanwhile dems are also playing a significant role in the cost of living going up which hurts the poor, its kinda hilarious to watch.

You can oppose how GOP has handled immigration and also feel what the dems are currently doing is destructive and lowers quality of life in the US. You aren't obligated to pick a side as good, but one is objectively worse for the country.

The crime issue is more of a local thing and a bigger problem in blue areas. So you would have to look at their awful policies. My concern isn't just the big companies getting richer, its also what they're doing with their power. But since they shill for dems, people are ignoring what they do. Open borders does not equal let people come in who want to work. You actually have a more libertarian perspective than what dems are doing.

What exactly are the Dems doing that you don't like? You repeatedly say "Oh, what the Dems are doing is soooo destructive" (to paraphrase), but you present no examples of what is being done that is supposedly lowering the quality of life in the US. So please, tell me what specifically you are criticizing and explain how it is lowering quality of life in the US.



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Mr Puggsly said:
IvorEvilen said:

It's not.  The situation has actually been improving, and Kamala Harris in particular has been appointed the role of addressing the instability that is leading to such an influx of people from our southern neighbors.

This is why the media has been paying less attention to the border.  It's less of an immediate crisis than it was a few months ago, and now just one among many high profile issues competing for our attention.  That being said, I hear about this issue pretty regularly from the media outlets I typically follow, so I find it pretty disingenuous to say the media is intentionally burying the issue.

My interpretation of this thread is that certain individuals desperately want people to see Biden being just as bad as Trump by utilizing bad faith arguments.

I've been seeing a lot of MAGAs suddenly caring about kids at the border on social media too... And the hypocracy to the cruelty they supported for years is enough to make my eyes bleed.  But it's not about the kids to them.  It about making Biden look bad.

Edit: Split up the last paragraph, because I didn't want it to seem like I was inferring political allegiances.  It was merely an anecdote.

The situation is improving?

Its a disaster and Kamala hasn't done anything. She refuses to even visit the border because it would be bad optics. The media is paying less attention because they're protecting the people in power, period.

Biden and Trump are not equal. There has been a massive influx since Biden got in because he invited them. He encouraged them. Many more also sneak in than get captured and no effort if any is made to find out who is here. I'm pretty sure the US is the only country that seems to be okay with so many undocumented people roaming around.

I personally never cared about the cruelty, my stance was always kick them out and discourage them. What's happening in the detention centers is ineffable hypocrisy. The left treated them as modern day concentration camps, now its something we should ignore out of respect. There is also a complete lack of transparency because it would make the administration look bad. The Trump administration was ironically much more transparent and they certainly didn't have the media defending them.

Apologies, I was actually typing up a much lengthier reply on Friday (with links and anticipatory statements), but life got busy.

In hindsight, the original post I wrote was pointless, because I think we fundamentally disagree on what healthy migration to the US looks like.  You want fewer immigrants and I want more (see the US birth rate).

Personally, I see an administration that is trying to scale up capacity after the draconian policies by the Trump administration (meant to deter migration because of white panic).  The influx in part has to do with people anticipating less cruelty from the Biden administration and the US having plenty of vaccines in a post-covid economy.  The funny thing is, a lot of progressives are REALLY upset that the Biden administration is not inviting immigrants into the country, the thing you are actually criticizing him of doing.

As for Kamala Harris, her role is a diplomatic one to stem migration at the roots.  She never said she would not visit the border.  In fact she said she would when she was interviewed back in March(?).  This weird gatekeeping on such a symbolic gesture doesn't make sense when she has already visited several countries and their leaders on the subject.  She visited the border on Friday, are you happy now?



Rab said:
IvorEvilen said:

It's not.  The situation has actually been improving, and Kamala Harris in particular has been appointed the role of addressing the instability that is leading to such an influx of people from our southern neighbors.

This is why the media has been paying less attention to the border.  It's less of an immediate crisis than it was a few months ago, and now just one among many high profile issues competing for our attention.  That being said, I hear about this issue pretty regularly from the media outlets I typically follow, so I find it pretty disingenuous to say the media is intentionally burying the issue.

My interpretation of this thread is that certain individuals desperately want people to see Biden being just as bad as Trump by utilizing bad faith arguments.

I've been seeing a lot of MAGAs suddenly caring about kids at the border on social media too... And the hypocracy to the cruelty they supported for years is enough to make my eyes bleed.  But it's not about the kids to them.  It about making Biden look bad.

Edit: Split up the last paragraph, because I didn't want it to seem like I was inferring political allegiances.  It was merely an anecdote.

This is based off a BBC report not from previous Trump supporters or from any other US based political group, the issues are real  

I'm not saying they are not.  I am skeptical, as I will be of any report that features evidence such as interviews with people who won't share their identity and video clips that can be faked or taken out of context (ala Planned Parenthood).  That being said, I think it should be looked into.  Which it sounds like it will be, based on the reports I've seen?

The reason the story didn't pick up traction is not part of some conspiracy, it's because the evidence was lacking and the story isn't a far departure from the kinds of conditions people would expect from an emergency camp.  Especially in Texas, where the state has been openly hostile towards any facility attempting to house children that crossed the border.  We are trying to fix the system.  Conditions are not going to be rosy overnight, especially when you consider the types of people drawn to this kind of work at the moment.

If I came on strong, I apologize.  I'm not trying to be a Biden Stan, but immigration is one of those topics that often devolves into good/evil.  I don't agree with Biden's immigration policies.  I'm more progressive on the subject.  But comparing (or implying) Biden to Trump is 100% a bad faith read.  At least to me.



sundin13 said:

In order to "stop people", you would need to close the borders which would be disastrous policy. Even the Republicans wouldn't be so stupid. As previously stated, the majority of contraband enters the country not by people sneaking across the border, but by people entering legally at ports of entry. A fence isn't going to help you with that. What would help, is improving the technology available at ports of entry to be better able to detect hidden contraband. 

Except, Australia has successfully stopped drug, weapon, people trafficking for the most part... Now the main ways to traffick drugs into our nation is via boats and planes through legal means, which we screen rather heavily thanks to border force.

Prior to that we had 51,000 people illegally come to our shores during the previous government term, they brought with them guns, drugs, disease, pests and other issues with them.
Thousands died at sea trying to get here... And I do Marine Rescue. - So I am directly involved in assisting these individuals when they fall into our response area... And I can assure you, their safety was at risk. It's not just our safety. It's everyone's.

That doesn't mean we don't want those people here... Far from it. We want them to follow our rules and regulations so we can screen-out extremism and criminals... And we have a framework for that.

Secure borders absolutely works.

sundin13 said:

As for your comment about how every nation needs secure borders for the safety of the citizens, immigrants, both documented and undocumented, commit less violent crime that natural born citizens. If we want to act in the interest of safety, it would perhaps be best to deport the Americans and let the immigrants have the country. While there is certainly some criminality which crosses the border (as mentioned above), a fence is a pretty piss poor way of combatting it (as mentioned above). 

It is absolutely about safety and control.

How many people have illegally crossed the USA border without any regards for COVID? Hundreds of thousands I imagine.
It's not -just- about crime rate.  - Being safe and secure is a much larger umbrella than your deduction to a binary issue.




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Pemalite said:
sundin13 said:

In order to "stop people", you would need to close the borders which would be disastrous policy. Even the Republicans wouldn't be so stupid. As previously stated, the majority of contraband enters the country not by people sneaking across the border, but by people entering legally at ports of entry. A fence isn't going to help you with that. What would help, is improving the technology available at ports of entry to be better able to detect hidden contraband. 

Except, Australia has successfully stopped drug, weapon, people trafficking for the most part... Now the main ways to traffick drugs into our nation is via boats and planes through legal means, which we screen rather heavily thanks to border force.

Prior to that we had 51,000 people illegally come to our shores during the previous government term, they brought with them guns, drugs, disease, pests and other issues with them.
Thousands died at sea trying to get here... And I do Marine Rescue. - So I am directly involved in assisting these individuals when they fall into our response area... And I can assure you, their safety was at risk. It's not just our safety. It's everyone's.

That doesn't mean we don't want those people here... Far from it. We want them to follow our rules and regulations so we can screen-out extremism and criminals... And we have a framework for that.

Secure borders absolutely works.

Come on, you are in the middle of the ocean.  Lets not act as if you have the same issue any other nation has.  51K is a drop in the bucket for the amount of traffic that come in and out of the US within one day, hell, I would say in 2 hours.  Also, from what I have read, Australia has a huge drug problem based on population.  As stated, Australia is not the US and trying to make it seem as if they are the same is an overstatement of the size in population between the two and the amount of traffic of populated cities within the 2 nations.  Its not apples to apples.



Pemalite said:
sundin13 said:

In order to "stop people", you would need to close the borders which would be disastrous policy. Even the Republicans wouldn't be so stupid. As previously stated, the majority of contraband enters the country not by people sneaking across the border, but by people entering legally at ports of entry. A fence isn't going to help you with that. What would help, is improving the technology available at ports of entry to be better able to detect hidden contraband. 

Except, Australia has successfully stopped drug, weapon, people trafficking for the most part... Now the main ways to traffick drugs into our nation is via boats and planes through legal means, which we screen rather heavily thanks to border force.

Prior to that we had 51,000 people illegally come to our shores during the previous government term, they brought with them guns, drugs, disease, pests and other issues with them.
Thousands died at sea trying to get here... And I do Marine Rescue. - So I am directly involved in assisting these individuals when they fall into our response area... And I can assure you, their safety was at risk. It's not just our safety. It's everyone's.

That doesn't mean we don't want those people here... Far from it. We want them to follow our rules and regulations so we can screen-out extremism and criminals... And we have a framework for that.

Secure borders absolutely works.

sundin13 said:

As for your comment about how every nation needs secure borders for the safety of the citizens, immigrants, both documented and undocumented, commit less violent crime that natural born citizens. If we want to act in the interest of safety, it would perhaps be best to deport the Americans and let the immigrants have the country. While there is certainly some criminality which crosses the border (as mentioned above), a fence is a pretty piss poor way of combatting it (as mentioned above). 

It is absolutely about safety and control.

How many people have illegally crossed the USA border without any regards for COVID? Hundreds of thousands I imagine.
It's not -just- about crime rate.  - Being safe and secure is a much larger umbrella than your deduction to a binary issue.

Except Australia is a fucking island, my guy. What are you trying to prove? No shit it's borders are more secure than America's. It's only real neighbors are fish. 

My point stands that the focus of Republicans is misguided and would not address the most pressing issues. And if you want to address issues like the dangers of an uninsured, undocumented population, a lot of proposed Democrat reforms would help with this, such as Universal Healthcare, improving the asylum system and aiding in improving conditions in Central American countries. "

The fact is, Democrats are presenting real solutions to a lot of immigration related issues, while Republicans are yelling "BIG WALL! BIG WALL!", taking the most braindead approach to immigration and spending a ton of money to miss nearly the entire fucking problem.