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Forums - Politics Discussion - 'Heartbreaking' conditions in US migrant child camp

KLXVER said:

Well at least British and Australian news are telling us what really happens in America. The American mainstream media is too busy playing bodyguard for the Biden administration. Im sure theyll find a way to blame Trump for this one too.

Pretty sure *every* single American administration has had "concentration camps" that directed migrants into shitty conditions. - I know Trump did.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/border-facilities/593239/

KLXVER said:

Well at least British and Australian news are telling us what really happens in America. The American mainstream media is too busy playing bodyguard for the Biden administration. Im sure theyll find a way to blame Trump for this one too.

Australian and British news tends to be dominated by Murdoch's propaganda... In-fact, there is a massive push for a royal commission to showcase the corruption Murdoch pushes at every turn... It's gotten to the point where Rupert Murdoch has our leaders on the phone and apply "pressure" to get his own way.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/kevin-rudd-s-petition-calling-for-a-royal-commission-into-the-murdoch-media-has-been-tabled-in-parliament

It's blatantly toxic.

What is even more scary is people overseas thinking our Media is showing any kind of "truth". - It's actually not... It's showing an agenda you simply agree with.
It's the confirmation bias logical fallacy.

rapsuperstar31 said:

I didn't watch the video but Is it getting worse under Biden? Obviously something needs to be done here.

Bidens border policy is definitely less hard-line than Trumps.

One thing the left in Australia worked out over a decade and a half ago is that the right-wing hard-border controls actually work, so on that issue the right and left here are in agreement in bipartisan support... But still seems to be divisive issue in the USA.
The USA will work it out at some point.

Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

As I asked earlier, who exactly are you looking out for with this solution?

The people that are burdened. Taking in low skill people with families is also an inevitable burden on welfare. Especially when its millions of people coming in.

Ya know, there are valid reasons why border cities/states are most bothered by this influx.

Not sure how they could be a burden on US welfare when the US welfare system is a joke anyway.

If-anything the unskilled, cheap, plentiful work-force has been extremely beneficial to the American economy hasn't it?
Cheaper workers are good for business tends to be the conservative argument. (When as an Australian I know for a fact that isn't true.)



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sundin13 said:

What solution to this issue do we propose?

While it's more long-term than short-term, invest into central/south-American countries so they can build better infrastructure, develop more and better jobs and as a result, have much less reasons to go to the US in the first place.

The whole crisis is also mostly home-made: Since the implementation of the Monroe doctrine (where the US forbid any foreign intervention onto the American continents, no matter what) the relation between the US and their southern cousins has been almost completely all take and no give. The US were making demands for many decades yet those countries got almost nothing in return from the US. As a result their development fell behind and dropped down further and further. So now those impoverished people are looking for a better life, and the US are the easiest to go to for them.



Pemalite said:
rapsuperstar31 said:

I didn't watch the video but Is it getting worse under Biden? Obviously something needs to be done here.

Bidens border policy is definitely less hard-line than Trumps.

One thing the left in Australia worked out over a decade and a half ago is that the right-wing hard-border controls actually work, so on that issue the right and left here are in agreement in bipartisan support... But still seems to be divisive issue in the USA.
The USA will work it out at some point.

I can't speak to Australia, but I've seen little evidence of any significant benefit to be gained by the type of border measures implemented by the American Right. There is significant value in improving our points of entry, because this is where the majority of contraband crosses the border, but the right doesn't really focus on this issue. 



Mr Puggsly said:

Cheap labor isn't inherently a benefit. Businesses gladly avoid paying more when the pool grows. Especially low skill labor. The left argues against low wages and helps create it.

Cheap labor isn't just a GOP thing. Even the woke opt for pay less if they can.

I prefer the term low skill versus unskilled. But again, the left argues for higher wages. If you increase the pool with more low skill labor then there is little reason to pay more. It becomes easier to find people. Also, a big reason citizens aren't taking jobs is because the unemployment benefits are great. Open borders and a welfare state are not compatible by the way.

Yes, I love cruelty. It gets me really hard. Millions of people are coming, they are not all in danger of being murdered. Some of our ghetto cities are more dangerous than some of the southern countries. Especially when you consider much of the murder in the US is concentrated in small areas.

Its not just drop kids off and they go to a relative. Some, potentially many are bringing the whole family. Kids even get lost in the system because its not really kept track of. Again, its millions of people coming in. You're incredibly naive about what is happening. Trying to spin it as an issue of skin color is incredibly stupid as well.

Many argue for merit based or letting people in by what the market/economy needs. I fail to see the benefit of letting in a ton of people who will clearly need welfare. Gee, I wonder why cost of living is rising so quickly while pay is stagnant. Welfare is the solution for everything.

I'll end on this. Murder, rape and other violent crime in this country is actually way up... especially in blue areas. I'd care more if I didn't think people in this country actually deserve to suffer for electing crazy people that just care about their party staying in power. People should suffer until they come to their senses and elect better leadership. Even more moderate democrats would be a good start.

Let me ask you this question, how many undocumented workers do you know.  I can tell you I know plenty and if the US really wanted to find them and deport them its a whole lot easier than you think.  The thing is, the US doesn't want to find and get rid of them because the US is built on cheap labor.  Its the reason why the GOP fought to not give them a path to citizenship because if that was the case they would actually have to pay minimum wage, healthcare and other benefits they can ignore.

The thing is, getting actual Americans to do those unskilled jobs is like trying to part the sea without GOD.  Most of the employers I know who rely on those seasonal undocumented workers cannot get any American to work those jobs and if they do, they are so unreliable its not even worth it.

You are not goin going to ever see the GOP do any type of merit base immigration for that labor force based on market/economy needs because they need that labor force getting paid below minimum wage and without the extra cost required for an employee.  The reason I put this mostly on the GOP is because that very item was presented to congress and guess who shot it down.  SO do the left use undocumented labor, you bet they do because its not a left or right issue when it comes to using and abusing cheap labor.  But its the GOP who would love for it to just remain the way it is and instead put that nice fear into your heart.  At least the Left wanted to get them to actually start to pay taxes and contribute but the GOP as always like things to remain the way they are.  

In the end, you live in this world where you are played like a puppet.  You believe the garbage feed to you and the fear instilled into your bones based on political BS but in the actual real world, that unskilled labor force is what continue to make things easier for you to live your life.  

Last edited by Machiavellian - on 28 June 2021

Mr Puggsly said:

The situation is improving?

Its a disaster and Kamala hasn't done anything. She refuses to even visit the border because it would be bad optics. The media is paying less attention because they're protecting the people in power, period.

Biden and Trump are not equal. There has been a massive influx since Biden got in because he invited them. He encouraged them. Many more also sneak in than get captured and no effort if any is made to find out who is here. I'm pretty sure the US is the only country that seems to be okay with so many undocumented people roaming around.

I personally never cared about the cruelty, my stance was always kick them out and discourage them. What's happening in the detention centers is ineffable hypocrisy. The left treated them as modern day concentration camps, now its something we should ignore out of respect. There is also a complete lack of transparency because it would make the administration look bad. The Trump administration was ironically much more transparent and they certainly didn't have the media defending them.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/16/politics/joe-biden-migrant-children-border-immigration/index.html

"I can say quite clearly: Don't come"

You call that an invitation?



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Vinther1991 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

The situation is improving?

Its a disaster and Kamala hasn't done anything. She refuses to even visit the border because it would be bad optics. The media is paying less attention because they're protecting the people in power, period.

Biden and Trump are not equal. There has been a massive influx since Biden got in because he invited them. He encouraged them. Many more also sneak in than get captured and no effort if any is made to find out who is here. I'm pretty sure the US is the only country that seems to be okay with so many undocumented people roaming around.

I personally never cared about the cruelty, my stance was always kick them out and discourage them. What's happening in the detention centers is ineffable hypocrisy. The left treated them as modern day concentration camps, now its something we should ignore out of respect. There is also a complete lack of transparency because it would make the administration look bad. The Trump administration was ironically much more transparent and they certainly didn't have the media defending them.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/16/politics/joe-biden-migrant-children-border-immigration/index.html

"I can say quite clearly: Don't come"

You call that an invitation?

Lip service and policies are two different things. I wish people could understand that.



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Machiavellian said:

Let me ask you this question, how many undocumented workers do you know.  I can tell you I know plenty and if the US really wanted to find them and deport them its a whole lot easier than you think.  The thing is, the US doesn't want to find and get rid of them because the US is built on cheap labor.  Its the reason why the GOP fought to not give them a path to citizenship because if that was the case they would actually have to pay minimum wage, healthcare and other benefits they can ignore.

The thing is, getting actual Americans to do those unskilled jobs is like trying to part the sea without GOD.  Most of the employers I know who rely on those seasonal undocumented workers cannot get any American to work those jobs and if they do, they are so unreliable its not even worth it.

You are not goin going to ever see the GOP do any type of merit base immigration for that labor force based on market/economy needs because they need that labor force getting paid below minimum wage and without the extra cost required for an employee.  The reason I put this mostly on the GOP is because that very item was presented to congress and guess who shot it down.  SO do the left use undocumented labor, you bet they do because its not a left or right issue when it comes to using and abusing cheap labor.  But its the GOP who would love for it to just remain that way and instead put that nice fear into your heart.  At least the Left wanted to get them to actually start to pay taxes and contribute but the GOP as always like things to remain the way they are, its that what its called to be a conservative.

In the end you live in this world where you are played like a puppet.  You believe the garbage feed to you and the fear instilled into your bones based on political BS but in the actual real world, that unskilled labor force is what continue to make things easier for you to live your life.  

As someone living in Phoenix AZ, probably more than you think.

I don't disagree people want cheap labor. I just think its funny people bitching about businesses exploiting people also seem to fight for cheap labor.

The left argue people don't take low skill jobs due to the pay. Is more cheap labor flooding in going to encourage those jobs to pay more? I doubt it. But I think its going to help create a society more dependent on welfare.

You keep saying GOP as if GOP is the only problem. In regard to taxes, the left doesn't just want the rich to pay more taxes. Its all a lie, the cost of living has gone up on everybody because their policies. We can't support their welfare system just by taxing the rich.

You tell me I am just living in fear. Meanwhile due to the left's policies crime is skyrocketing, cost of living is way up, big businesses seem to be getting richer and more powerful even in blue states. Then you have virtually open borders which is causing a series of problems that even the left doesn't deny. At what point can we admit I am not just living in fear, but instead pointing out reality. I am not afraid, I enjoy seeing people getting the suffering they deserve.

I don't just say this on the internet by the way. When I see mayhem regularly happening in blue cities/states, I get comfort knowing they chose that.



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sundin13 said:
Pemalite said:

Bidens border policy is definitely less hard-line than Trumps.

One thing the left in Australia worked out over a decade and a half ago is that the right-wing hard-border controls actually work, so on that issue the right and left here are in agreement in bipartisan support... But still seems to be divisive issue in the USA.
The USA will work it out at some point.

I can't speak to Australia, but I've seen little evidence of any significant benefit to be gained by the type of border measures implemented by the American Right. There is significant value in improving our points of entry, because this is where the majority of contraband crosses the border, but the right doesn't really focus on this issue. 

If you stop people... You also tend to stop the trafficking of other illegal items/substances.

Every nation needs secure borders... It is about being safe for the countries citizens at the end of the day.



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Pemalite said:
rapsuperstar31 said:

I didn't watch the video but Is it getting worse under Biden? Obviously something needs to be done here.

Bidens border policy is definitely less hard-line than Trumps.

One thing the left in Australia worked out over a decade and a half ago is that the right-wing hard-border controls actually work, so on that issue the right and left here are in agreement in bipartisan support... But still seems to be divisive issue in the USA.
The USA will work it out at some point.

Preach. But the conversation around immigration is too toxic there for most rational arguments to penetrate, Trump's rhetoric didn't help at all. Worse yet, the toxicity overflew and spilled over the rest of the west. Luckily for the UK, the rest of Europe aren't slightly "beige"er than us so the "racism" argument shouldn't retain water... but it still does sometimes somehow. 

In any case, I feel like the USA should engulf all of these immigrants without complaining because of how the USA foreign policies have destabilised more countries than I could count on both hands, both parties are similarly guilty as well. 

Last edited by LurkerJ - on 28 June 2021

Mr Puggsly said:
Vinther1991 said:

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/16/politics/joe-biden-migrant-children-border-immigration/index.html

"I can say quite clearly: Don't come"

You call that an invitation?

Lip service and policies are two different things. I wish people could understand that.

But you seem to fall for it just as easy as the next person.  Go figure  What actual policy has Biden put into place that is more welcoming to immigrants on our southern boarder today then during the Trump administration.

Last edited by Machiavellian - on 28 June 2021