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Forums - Politics Discussion - 'Heartbreaking' conditions in US migrant child camp

Pemalite said:
sundin13 said:

I can't speak to Australia, but I've seen little evidence of any significant benefit to be gained by the type of border measures implemented by the American Right. There is significant value in improving our points of entry, because this is where the majority of contraband crosses the border, but the right doesn't really focus on this issue. 

If you stop people... You also tend to stop the trafficking of other illegal items/substances.

Every nation needs secure borders... It is about being safe for the countries citizens at the end of the day.

Actually it really does not work that way.  Yes, you stop the people that just walk over but criminal organization have no problems getting into the US, they never have because as long as the system is controlled by people, money will make a way.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

Let me ask you this question, how many undocumented workers do you know.  I can tell you I know plenty and if the US really wanted to find them and deport them its a whole lot easier than you think.  The thing is, the US doesn't want to find and get rid of them because the US is built on cheap labor.  Its the reason why the GOP fought to not give them a path to citizenship because if that was the case they would actually have to pay minimum wage, healthcare and other benefits they can ignore.

The thing is, getting actual Americans to do those unskilled jobs is like trying to part the sea without GOD.  Most of the employers I know who rely on those seasonal undocumented workers cannot get any American to work those jobs and if they do, they are so unreliable its not even worth it.

You are not goin going to ever see the GOP do any type of merit base immigration for that labor force based on market/economy needs because they need that labor force getting paid below minimum wage and without the extra cost required for an employee.  The reason I put this mostly on the GOP is because that very item was presented to congress and guess who shot it down.  SO do the left use undocumented labor, you bet they do because its not a left or right issue when it comes to using and abusing cheap labor.  But its the GOP who would love for it to just remain that way and instead put that nice fear into your heart.  At least the Left wanted to get them to actually start to pay taxes and contribute but the GOP as always like things to remain the way they are, its that what its called to be a conservative.

In the end you live in this world where you are played like a puppet.  You believe the garbage feed to you and the fear instilled into your bones based on political BS but in the actual real world, that unskilled labor force is what continue to make things easier for you to live your life.  

As someone living in Phoenix AZ, probably more than you think.

I don't disagree people want cheap labor. I just think its funny people bitching about businesses exploiting people also seem to fight for cheap labor.

The left argue people don't take low skill jobs due to the pay. Is more cheap labor flooding in going to encourage those jobs to pay more? I doubt it. But I think its going to help create a society more dependent on welfare.

You keep saying GOP as if GOP is the only problem. In regard to taxes, the left doesn't just want the rich to pay more taxes. Its all a lie, the cost of living has gone up on everybody because their policies. We can't support their welfare system just by taxing the rich.

You tell me I am just living in fear. Meanwhile due to the left's policies crime is skyrocketing, cost of living is way up, big businesses seem to be getting richer and more powerful even in blue states. Then you have virtually open borders which is causing a series of problems that even the left doesn't deny. At what point can we admit I am not just living in fear, but instead pointing out reality. I am not afraid, I enjoy seeing people getting the suffering they deserve.

I don't just say this on the internet by the way. When I see mayhem regularly happening in blue cities/states, I get comfort knowing they chose that.

lol, cheap labor has been flooding into the US longer than you have been on this earth.  You act as if this was something that happen only during Trump or Biden term but this been happening for decades.  This notion that you can get welfare when you are undocumented is the dumbest thing the conservatives have fostered.  I know for a fact, you cannot get any government services if you are undocumented.  That's another dumb as lie used to keep you in fear.

What you are missing is that the US thrives on cheap labor because the US citizens thrive on cheap goods and services.  The same people who complain about China, Mexico and India taking jobs are the same people who purchase goods and services made from those countries because they are cheaper.

I stated the GOP because when it was put to Congress to give them a path to citizenship, to allow them to get workers permit to cross the boarder and work within the US, it was the do nothing party which is the GOP that shot it down.  So you tell me why, did they shoot down such a plan.  You would be surprise that many actually do not want to stay in the US, they would be happy to just work and use that money to help their family.

Crime skyrocking, show me what was the policy that cause crime to skyrocket and cost of living to go up.  Big business getting richer but this is the left doing, hmmm can you also show me the policy that helped that happen.  Why not open the boarder, give people who want to work, work permits, you would be surprised that most actually do not want to stay in the US, they just want to work, make some money and send it back to their family get them to actually contribute to paying city, state and federal taxes or we can continue to just let things stay as they do.  This game has been played for so long.  



Pemalite said:
sundin13 said:

I can't speak to Australia, but I've seen little evidence of any significant benefit to be gained by the type of border measures implemented by the American Right. There is significant value in improving our points of entry, because this is where the majority of contraband crosses the border, but the right doesn't really focus on this issue. 

If you stop people... You also tend to stop the trafficking of other illegal items/substances.

Every nation needs secure borders... It is about being safe for the countries citizens at the end of the day.

You know its even difficult to find statistics about what crime is committed by illegals or how many are incarcerated. This is done on purpose to keep people ignorant.

If people don't want secure borders or safety in general you begin to question what their movies actually are. Because rising crime and higher cost of living doesn't seem to be a concern. All things that affect the poor more.



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Machiavellian said:
Pemalite said:

If you stop people... You also tend to stop the trafficking of other illegal items/substances.

Every nation needs secure borders... It is about being safe for the countries citizens at the end of the day.

Actually it really does not work that way.  Yes, you stop the people that just walk over but criminal organization have no problems getting into the US, they never have because as long as the system is controlled by people, money will make a way.

You are ignoring the vast increase in a relatively short period of time. Almost like there was a big increase with the change of the president...



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Machiavellian said:
Mr Puggsly said:

As someone living in Phoenix AZ, probably more than you think.

I don't disagree people want cheap labor. I just think its funny people bitching about businesses exploiting people also seem to fight for cheap labor.

The left argue people don't take low skill jobs due to the pay. Is more cheap labor flooding in going to encourage those jobs to pay more? I doubt it. But I think its going to help create a society more dependent on welfare.

You keep saying GOP as if GOP is the only problem. In regard to taxes, the left doesn't just want the rich to pay more taxes. Its all a lie, the cost of living has gone up on everybody because their policies. We can't support their welfare system just by taxing the rich.

You tell me I am just living in fear. Meanwhile due to the left's policies crime is skyrocketing, cost of living is way up, big businesses seem to be getting richer and more powerful even in blue states. Then you have virtually open borders which is causing a series of problems that even the left doesn't deny. At what point can we admit I am not just living in fear, but instead pointing out reality. I am not afraid, I enjoy seeing people getting the suffering they deserve.

I don't just say this on the internet by the way. When I see mayhem regularly happening in blue cities/states, I get comfort knowing they chose that.

lol, cheap labor has been flooding into the US longer than you have been on this earth.  You act as if this was something that happen only during Trump or Biden term but this been happening for decades.  This notion that you can get welfare when you are undocumented is the dumbest thing the conservatives have fostered.  I know for a fact, you cannot get any government services if you are undocumented.  That's another dumb as lie used to keep you in fear.

What you are missing is that the US thrives on cheap labor because the US citizens thrive on cheap goods and services.  The same people who complain about China, Mexico and India taking jobs are the same people who purchase goods and services made from those countries because they are cheaper.

I stated the GOP because when it was put to Congress to give them a path to citizenship, to allow them to get workers permit to cross the boarder and work within the US, it was the do nothing party which is the GOP that shot it down.  So you tell me why, did they shoot down such a plan.  You would be surprise that many actually do not want to stay in the US, they would be happy to just work and use that money to help their family.

Crime skyrocking, show me what was the policy that cause crime to skyrocket and cost of living to go up.  Big business getting richer but this is the left doing, hmmm can you also show me the policy that helped that happen.  Why not open the boarder, give people who want to work, work permits, you would be surprised that most actually do not want to stay in the US, they just want to work, make some money and send it back to their family get them to actually contribute to paying city, state and federal taxes or we can continue to just let things stay as they do.  This game has been played for so long.  

I am pointing out there is much anger about the exploitation of workers these days. My advice, don't give employers more power with cheap labor. If you don't think illegals are getting government welfare in some form, you don't pay much attention to what's happening. Even dealing and caring for them is a burden.

I agree we take advantage of cheap labor overseas mostly. But do we benefit an abundance of cheap labor in this country? Depends on your perspective. But the poor are objectively great for votes and always looking for free stuff dems promise. Meanwhile dems are also playing a significant role in the cost of living going up which hurts the poor, its kinda hilarious to watch.

You can oppose how GOP has handled immigration and also feel what the dems are currently doing is destructive and lowers quality of life in the US. You aren't obligated to pick a side as good, but one is objectively worse for the country.

The crime issue is more of a local thing and a bigger problem in blue areas. So you would have to look at their awful policies. My concern isn't just the big companies getting richer, its also what they're doing with their power. But since they shill for dems, people are ignoring what they do. Open borders does not equal let people come in who want to work. You actually have a more libertarian perspective than what dems are doing.



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River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

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Machiavellian said:
Pemalite said:

If you stop people... You also tend to stop the trafficking of other illegal items/substances.

Every nation needs secure borders... It is about being safe for the countries citizens at the end of the day.

Actually it really does not work that way.  Yes, you stop the people that just walk over but criminal organization have no problems getting into the US, they never have because as long as the system is controlled by people, money will make a way.

It actually does work that.

Drugs and other illegal items don't simply walk themselves over a border, they require people... On both sides.

Will you ever completely stop either? Absolutely not. But you can reduce it to a point where it's an inconsequential issue.

If Australia still has illegal people crossing dangerous oceans in rickity old, un-seaworthy boats... And there is a death toll to it.
Then the USA sharing a land border with it's southern neighbor will have an infinitely bigger task securing that border.

Mr Puggsly said:
Pemalite said:

If you stop people... You also tend to stop the trafficking of other illegal items/substances.

Every nation needs secure borders... It is about being safe for the countries citizens at the end of the day.

You know its even difficult to find statistics about what crime is committed by illegals or how many are incarcerated. This is done on purpose to keep people ignorant.

If people don't want secure borders or safety in general you begin to question what their movies actually are. Because rising crime and higher cost of living doesn't seem to be a concern. All things that affect the poor more.

Not really.
I work with police and border force often as I do fire and rescue, so I have a "little" inside knowledge.

Basically the statistics are formulated based around real-world incidents and reports... And is not statistically extrapolated in order to "assume" anything on a larger scale.
So those who succeed in illegal border crossing and drug smuggling will not be included in the statistics. Just can't.
Crossing the border and ending up caught by a different agency (Or maybe even a different branch of the same agency, depending how coherently the agencies work in the USA) may not be reflected in the statistics either.

There tends to be a paper trail for everything.

Plus as people we shouldn't be making up conspiracies either, that is something that the people seem to be doing more often these days thanks to big personalities like Trump.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Machiavellian said:

Actually it really does not work that way.  Yes, you stop the people that just walk over but criminal organization have no problems getting into the US, they never have because as long as the system is controlled by people, money will make a way.

It actually does work that.

Drugs and other illegal items don't simply walk themselves over a border, they require people... On both sides.

Will you ever completely stop either? Absolutely not. But you can reduce it to a point where it's an inconsequential issue.

If Australia still has illegal people crossing dangerous oceans in rickity old, un-seaworthy boats... And there is a death toll to it.
Then the USA sharing a land border with it's southern neighbor will have an infinitely bigger task securing that border.

What exactly make you think that drug cartels just walk their merchandise over the boarder.  No, they drive and ship it over just like they always have.  You really believe some mule is bringing over the boarder and smuggling illegally all the drugs  to the US on the back of some illegal immigrant.  That type of illegal drugs is a drop of sand compared to what gets sent here legally.  Lets not kid ourselves in believing that the amount of illegal immigrants coming illegally by building a tunnel or climbing a ladder is the main entry point of drugs in the US.  Drugs cartel have not relied on that method for decades.



Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

lol, cheap labor has been flooding into the US longer than you have been on this earth.  You act as if this was something that happen only during Trump or Biden term but this been happening for decades.  This notion that you can get welfare when you are undocumented is the dumbest thing the conservatives have fostered.  I know for a fact, you cannot get any government services if you are undocumented.  That's another dumb as lie used to keep you in fear.

What you are missing is that the US thrives on cheap labor because the US citizens thrive on cheap goods and services.  The same people who complain about China, Mexico and India taking jobs are the same people who purchase goods and services made from those countries because they are cheaper.

I stated the GOP because when it was put to Congress to give them a path to citizenship, to allow them to get workers permit to cross the boarder and work within the US, it was the do nothing party which is the GOP that shot it down.  So you tell me why, did they shoot down such a plan.  You would be surprise that many actually do not want to stay in the US, they would be happy to just work and use that money to help their family.

Crime skyrocking, show me what was the policy that cause crime to skyrocket and cost of living to go up.  Big business getting richer but this is the left doing, hmmm can you also show me the policy that helped that happen.  Why not open the boarder, give people who want to work, work permits, you would be surprised that most actually do not want to stay in the US, they just want to work, make some money and send it back to their family get them to actually contribute to paying city, state and federal taxes or we can continue to just let things stay as they do.  This game has been played for so long.  

I am pointing out there is much anger about the exploitation of workers these days. My advice, don't give employers more power with cheap labor. If you don't think illegals are getting government welfare in some form, you don't pay much attention to what's happening. Even dealing and caring for them is a burden.

I agree we take advantage of cheap labor overseas mostly. But do we benefit an abundance of cheap labor in this country? Depends on your perspective. But the poor are objectively great for votes and always looking for free stuff dems promise. Meanwhile dems are also playing a significant role in the cost of living going up which hurts the poor, its kinda hilarious to watch.

You can oppose how GOP has handled immigration and also feel what the dems are currently doing is destructive and lowers quality of life in the US. You aren't obligated to pick a side as good, but one is objectively worse for the country.

The crime issue is more of a local thing and a bigger problem in blue areas. So you would have to look at their awful policies. My concern isn't just the big companies getting richer, its also what they're doing with their power. But since they shill for dems, people are ignoring what they do. Open borders does not equal let people come in who want to work. You actually have a more libertarian perspective than what dems are doing.

The problem is that its already late in the game for not giving employers power to hire cheap labor because this is not something that manifested itself over the course of a few years but has become institutionalized within the US for decades.  Its not different then sending out manufacturing to other nations due to cost.  Politically it sound all good and give people something to fear and hate but buying habits would need to change significantly before any of those jobs make themselves back to the US because the US depends on cheap products as they do with cheap labor.

You show me what stat shows an undocumented person receiving any government benefit.  I am not making this statement on some guess, I know for a fact that you cannot get anything.  You cannot get any type of food stamps or welfare subsidies because I know many undocumented people.  How exactly are they going to receive these benefits with no SS, worker permit or any form of government or state ID.  Even state wise its hard to get anything and unless marry someone who is an American, then you can get your children benefits but the undocumented work No.

Who said anything about which side is good.  I stated that what you mentioned was rejected by the GOP.  When giving the choice to bring some change to the system, they instead are more than happy to keep it the way it is even knowing they are feeding their constitutes BS.  The current GOP is the party of fear because it works.  They continue to feed BS and slight of hand magic tricks.  They fully know about the unskilled labor and undocumented workers but its their agenda to vilify the group while reaping the rewards.

You say that undocumented workers are worse for the country is that your stance because if it is, then its pretty much you living in a bubble.  Keep believing in that fairytale just like people continue to believe that those manufacturing jobs will be coming back to the US.  Its always good theater.

As for the crime point, I will address that one later as I probably should stay on topic as these post can get long.



Machiavellian said:
Pemalite said:

It actually does work that.

Drugs and other illegal items don't simply walk themselves over a border, they require people... On both sides.

Will you ever completely stop either? Absolutely not. But you can reduce it to a point where it's an inconsequential issue.

If Australia still has illegal people crossing dangerous oceans in rickity old, un-seaworthy boats... And there is a death toll to it.
Then the USA sharing a land border with it's southern neighbor will have an infinitely bigger task securing that border.

What exactly make you think that drug cartels just walk their merchandise over the boarder.  No, they drive and ship it over just like they always have.  You really believe some mule is bringing over the boarder and smuggling illegally all the drugs  to the US on the back of some illegal immigrant.  That type of illegal drugs is a drop of sand compared to what gets sent here legally.  Lets not kid ourselves in believing that the amount of illegal immigrants coming illegally by building a tunnel or climbing a ladder is the main entry point of drugs in the US.  Drugs cartel have not relied on that method for decades.

-which requires people-

Drug cartels rely on -every- single possible entry point to get volume across.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
sundin13 said:

I can't speak to Australia, but I've seen little evidence of any significant benefit to be gained by the type of border measures implemented by the American Right. There is significant value in improving our points of entry, because this is where the majority of contraband crosses the border, but the right doesn't really focus on this issue. 

If you stop people... You also tend to stop the trafficking of other illegal items/substances.

Every nation needs secure borders... It is about being safe for the countries citizens at the end of the day.

In order to "stop people", you would need to close the borders which would be disastrous policy. Even the Republicans wouldn't be so stupid. As previously stated, the majority of contraband enters the country not by people sneaking across the border, but by people entering legally at ports of entry. A fence isn't going to help you with that. What would help, is improving the technology available at ports of entry to be better able to detect hidden contraband. 

As for your comment about how every nation needs secure borders for the safety of the citizens, immigrants, both documented and undocumented, commit less violent crime that natural born citizens. If we want to act in the interest of safety, it would perhaps be best to deport the Americans and let the immigrants have the country. While there is certainly some criminality which crosses the border (as mentioned above), a fence is a pretty piss poor way of combatting it (as mentioned above).