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Forums - Politics Discussion - 'Heartbreaking' conditions in US migrant child camp

Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

Someone who trusts those who commit misdeeds in plain view is even more foolish that someone who trusts those who commits misdeeds in secret. You are encouraging trust, but I simply ask for the police to show that they deserve it. Until then, it is not the cities who deserve their problems, it is the police who deserve theirs.

"Someone who trusts those who commit misdeeds in plain view is even more foolish that someone who trusts those who commits misdeeds in secret." You treat incidents as misdeeds by all police.

"You are encouraging trust, but I simply ask for the police to show that they deserve it." My support of the cameras show I am skeptical.

"Until then, it is not the cities who deserve their problems, it is the police who deserve theirs." Again, its the people that suffer more. Police officers will just do less. We are already seeing examples. I repeat, if you wanna neuter the police I suggest having some other crime fighting solutions first. However, I like gun sales are up because people feel less safe.

I treat incidents that aren't appropriately handled, because cops protect cops, as misdeeds by the Policing system. No action is simply an individual action without proper accountability.

As for the consequences of this mistrust in police, I agree that it may cause some negative repercussions, but again, I put the blame for this on the Policing system. They must act to earn the trust of the people they serve by accepting accountability, not stand against it and complain about how they aren't just handed more money and power. I can't support a governmental system that holds the people hostage by threatening inaction as a response to accountability, and if you are truly suspicious of government power, I can't imagine that such a thing would go over well with you either, yet you seem to regard this abuse as a natural consequence and not as the abuse of power it is.



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The_Yoda said:
sundin13 said:

Someone who trusts those who commit misdeeds in plain view is even more foolish that someone who trusts those who commits misdeeds in secret. You are encouraging trust, but I simply ask for the police to show that they deserve it. Until then, it is not the cities who deserve their problems, it is the police who deserve theirs.

What a bigoted view on the police.  Swap out the word Hispanic for police in that sentence and see how palatable it is:

You are encouraging trust, but I simply ask for the Hispanics to show that they deserve it. Until then, it is not the cities who deserve their problems, it is the Hispanics who deserve theirs.

A popular left leaning idea is anything bad done by individual police officers has to be owned by all law enforcement.

The simple response someone would make to your argument is nobody chooses to be Hispanic, but people do choose to be police officers. However, the left attacks people for being white and their "privilege" that comes with it.



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sundin13 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

"Someone who trusts those who commit misdeeds in plain view is even more foolish that someone who trusts those who commits misdeeds in secret." You treat incidents as misdeeds by all police.

"You are encouraging trust, but I simply ask for the police to show that they deserve it." My support of the cameras show I am skeptical.

"Until then, it is not the cities who deserve their problems, it is the police who deserve theirs." Again, its the people that suffer more. Police officers will just do less. We are already seeing examples. I repeat, if you wanna neuter the police I suggest having some other crime fighting solutions first. However, I like gun sales are up because people feel less safe.

I treat incidents that aren't appropriately handled, because cops protect cops, as misdeeds by the Policing system. No action is simply an individual action without proper accountability.

As for the consequences of this mistrust in police, I agree that it may cause some negative repercussions, but again, I put the blame for this on the Policing system. They must act to earn the trust of the people they serve by accepting accountability, not stand against it and complain about how they aren't just handed more money and power. I can't support a governmental system that holds the people hostage by threatening inaction as a response to accountability, and if you are truly suspicious of government power, I can't imagine that such a thing would go over well with you either, yet you seem to regard this abuse as a natural consequence and not as the abuse of power it is.

I really think it depends on the situation. Cops aren't always defending cops.

"I can't support a governmental system that holds the people hostage by threatening inaction as a response to accountability" I'm glad you said this because its actually the cities that generally reduce role of law enforcement. Essentially criminals are given more freedom in left leaning cities and the police get to do less.

I feel you've got a anti police agenda going. While I consider myself somewhere in the middle. But I think we both agree, the anti police movement has hurt communities more than actual police officers.



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Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

I treat incidents that aren't appropriately handled, because cops protect cops, as misdeeds by the Policing system. No action is simply an individual action without proper accountability.

As for the consequences of this mistrust in police, I agree that it may cause some negative repercussions, but again, I put the blame for this on the Policing system. They must act to earn the trust of the people they serve by accepting accountability, not stand against it and complain about how they aren't just handed more money and power. I can't support a governmental system that holds the people hostage by threatening inaction as a response to accountability, and if you are truly suspicious of government power, I can't imagine that such a thing would go over well with you either, yet you seem to regard this abuse as a natural consequence and not as the abuse of power it is.

I really think it depends on the situation. Cops aren't always defending cops.

"I can't support a governmental system that holds the people hostage by threatening inaction as a response to accountability" I'm glad you said this because its actually the cities that generally reduce role of law enforcement. Essentially criminals are given more freedom in left leaning cities and the police get to do less.

I feel you've got a anti police agenda going. While I consider myself somewhere in the middle. But I think we both agree, the anti police movement has hurt communities more than actual police officers.

Cops protecting cops is the general rule, be it through their silence in the face of misconduct (ie Blue wall of silence), or a reliance on collective power to avoid accountability (ie Police Unions). As the unions represent the collective will of the workers (officers), when the Union acts to aid an officer in avoiding accountability it can be said that this action was done through the power of the whole force (or at least the majority). The police have the power to change this. The fact they haven't shows they don't want to.



Mr Puggsly said:
Hiku said:

You were asked to name the specific policies you were referring to.
But you reply with an anecdotal story, and made more unsubstantiated claims with no citation/source.

Sudden rise in cost of living?


History of the Cost of Living (investopedia.com)

A sudden rise since 1975, that we can absolutely credit the current administration for.


The US Cost of Living Is Rising -- And Many Americans Can't Afford It | GOBankingRates

You need to specify what policies you are referring to with citation/sources, and demonstrate that they originate from where you claim.

Housing isn't the only thing that has risen in price in recent months. Virtually everything has, its almost like the our money has become worth less. I can't figure out why though...

I gave you a link to a study on the History of the Cost of Living. Not just housing.
The graph was for consumer price index. Which has been on a sharp incline since the 1970's.

You were asked to provide sources for the policies you were talking about, and demonstrate that they originate from where you claim.
It's been more than a week, and you didn't do that.

No one should have to drag the sources out of you across multiple posts.
And this isn't the first time you've refused to explain your position when pressed on it. 

Next time, you need to be willing to provide sources to back up your claims. That's part of having an honest conversation.
If you don't, you'll find that you won't be able to post in those threads any more. Like this one.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

Ahhh, another cope out.  Results.  So you tell us the current results are policy and administration changes but then you cannot provide either administration or policy change.  My friend that is some very poor logic.  Oh well, I believe we have established that you have nothing.  Maybe you should go back and read that document I posted on the seasonal migrant issue but then again you and I know you will not.  As long as the results can be manipulated to suit your opinion why waste time validating it.

Like I said, different topic but please try to keep up with your claims.  I guess you forget them from one moment to the next.

So what you are saying then the cost of living which pretty much always goes up wasn't as impactful as you seem to make it out to be.  Not sure what race has to do with anything but I am wondering exactly what is this huge cost of living you keep talking about.  Is it store goods and services, gas prices non food items, energy.  I mean I pay my bills and shop on a constant basis, not really sure exactly what you are saying or what particular policy has caused whatever you are talking about.  Actually I am not even sure you know what you are talking about since most of your statements are so general, you basically can pull anything out of thin air and make claims.

"Ahhh, another cope out. Results." Its "cop out," not "cope out." And yes, results matter.

"So you tell us the current results are policy and administration changes but then you cannot provide either administration or policy change." You are too smart, I know you're well aware of policy changes. Especially the ones that have encouraged people to come to the US and has families flying all over the country waiting for their court hearing that are years away.

"So what you are saying then the cost of living which pretty much always goes up wasn't as impactful as you seem to make it out to be." I never complained about my personal living situation, per se. However, I do pay attention to the state of the country. I said quality of life on average is going down for various reasons, people just getting by are obviously gonna get hurt worse with the increased costs of living. The policies of the current administration are responsible. Big spending bills and tax increases will also increase costs of living further.

"Is it store goods and services, gas prices non food items, energy." Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Did a quick search for this... http://a.msn.com/00/en-us/AAM9CMY?ocid=st

There is also volatility given expectations of what the administrations might do or wants to do. That impacts prices.

You are pretty good with correcting simple spelling mistakes but not on the logic front.  You talk about Results but what you have not done is link any particular policy to the results or administration change to the results.  Also what results are you talking about, is it minor left at the boarder, illegal immigration what.  Any specifics would be great.  Any policy or administration changes would be awesome to show correlation between the results you speak and the changes that caused it.  Just saying look at the results is basically just a cop out.  Give some context to your opinion it would be helpful to understand where you coming from.

What does being smart has to do with you providing the missing data.  Why would anyone need to guess what you are saying when you can just say it.  I have continued to tell you I have no clue what policy you are talking about and it seems you also have no clue what you are talking about.  Also why would I do your work for you.  I am not the one making the claim, I see no reason to hunt to prove your claim. You seem to be very smart, I am sure you have research your claim so why not share it with the rest of us or are you the person who just drop an opinion then hope someone else can prove it for you.

Did you read the link, there is a lot of things contributing to the increase in goods and services.  You are making a claim that its purly policy and the current administration at the federal level and ignoring just about everything else.  You have not proven what has the greater impact, shortages of goods. Increase in prices based on market conditions, labor and resources.  You have not tied it with anything or provided any link for the cause to the results.  The article I link does exactly that.  Maybe this is a topic you are really not ready to discuss.



My Parents are immigrants from Honduras , We need more positives.

Last edited by dx11332sega - on 26 July 2021

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Mr Puggsly said:
The_Yoda said:

What a bigoted view on the police.  Swap out the word Hispanic for police in that sentence and see how palatable it is:

You are encouraging trust, but I simply ask for the Hispanics to show that they deserve it. Until then, it is not the cities who deserve their problems, it is the Hispanics who deserve theirs.

A popular left leaning idea is anything bad done by individual police officers has to be owned by all law enforcement.

The simple response someone would make to your argument is nobody chooses to be Hispanic, but people do choose to be police officers. However, the left attacks people for being white and their "privilege" that comes with it.

I assumed I would see that argument.  While it does hold some water the point can be made that police officers don't get a choice in who other police officers are.  A town cop in Ohio has no power to affect who is a State Trooper in California but yet the trust in his office is also eroded by a bigoted view. Being a bigot in it's simplest form has nothing to do with race ( although it of course can when race has to do with the GROUP that is on the receiving end of the prejudice).