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Forums - Politics Discussion - 'Heartbreaking' conditions in US migrant child camp

Mr Puggsly said:

"Actually to seek asylum its has nothing to do if your country is poor or dangerous, instead there needs to be some sort of persecution." You haven't seen the excuses being made by your party. Also, the policy has become just let em' in and never throw them out. This will be a burden on the country. More low skilled poor people among the many we already have. More people to require welfare of some sort.

Immigrants provide labor in centrally important areas of our economy (especially important given our aging population), have higher labor force participation rates, higher rates of starting businesses and higher economic mobility than native born workers. Immigrants are holding up our economy, not holding it back. Providing citizenship to undocumented individuals would allow them to utilize their full potential in bringing economic success to the country, adding jobs, increasing wages and productivity and increasing GDP.



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sundin13 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

"Actually to seek asylum its has nothing to do if your country is poor or dangerous, instead there needs to be some sort of persecution." You haven't seen the excuses being made by your party. Also, the policy has become just let em' in and never throw them out. This will be a burden on the country. More low skilled poor people among the many we already have. More people to require welfare of some sort.

Immigrants provide labor in centrally important areas of our economy (especially important given our aging population), have higher labor force participation rates, higher rates of starting businesses and higher economic mobility than native born workers. Immigrants are holding up our economy, not holding it back. Providing citizenship to undocumented individuals would allow them to utilize their full potential in bringing economic success to the country, adding jobs, increasing wages and productivity and increasing GDP.

If you want higher labor participation then flooding the country with immigrants that may not have a right to work is probably not the best solution (illegal and otherwise). Also, maybe get rid of welfare that encourages people to stay out of the workforce. With some sort of merit based immigration the country could get what it needs as opposed to more low skill labor, some of which will certainly rely on financial assistance.

Just to show how much of a centrist I can be, I actually believe fairly high minimum wages can be a good thing when you have so much low skill labor in the market. But it seems like some people will argue paying people below minimum wage (like illegals) is also a good thing to keep prices down. Which I find bizarre, do we want workers being exploited in this country as long as they aren't citizens?

I think you have me confused with someone that's anti immigrant or something. I see the value immigrants can bring, which is different than an open borders solution.

Anyway, democrats aren't simply concerned with making sure our aging population is taken care of. Tax revenue needs to increase vastly for all their welfare ambitions. Furthermore, white supremacy and climate change is our WWII, its gonna cost trillions to combat that.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

Again, what specific policy caters to illegals.  Its very easy to make up these type of opinion comments but I would really like to see the policy that shows this to be true.

I prefer you show me boarder crime is on the rise.  You keep making this claim but it seems when asked for the stats, well you seem to go somewhere else.  I understand when its pure opinion, stats are a hassle and get in the way.

So what particular policy that has lowered the quality of life that have come from the Dems.  I am more than willing to listen to as I am not a Dem nor do I believe everything from the each party is golden.  What I do like is when someone can bring concrete examples instead of just pure opinion to the table.  Lets take our example as blue cities and people leaving because of failed policy but then again why are the most federal dependent states, meaning the ones who have the most poverty and people on welfare are red states.  The thing is, you can always find some issue with any particular state and any particular policy from both parties.  The difference is that if you only just listen to one side, all you get is partisan rhetoric.

Again, if you do not want a debate then you probably should not share your opinion.  I am more than happy to have my opinion challenge and if I am wrong then I have learned something.  If you want to be the person who drop their opinion and peace out, then you probably should not reply to anyone challenging your opinion, that way you never have to worry about if what you believe is correct. 

So I was talking to a TSA guy, works at a major airport. Black guy, I know he likes Obama. And he was talking to me about how crazy it is at the moment because we (the country) are letting in so many illegals, hundreds at a time. The government pays to fly them (and their family) to wherever they are going. Essentially they will get a court hearing but can live in the countries potentially for years before that happens. Before they had to stay in their country. He said this situation is something Trump did right. I told him this is a good way to win elections in the future though, he was surprised because that made sense to him. He replied, "I didn't even consider the long term plan."

"So what particular policy that has lowered the quality of life that have come from the Dems." The sudden rise in cost of living and it will continue because their policies require it. That we can absolutely credit the current administration for. However, dems in a general are doing a great job lowering quality of life locally.

I just say enough to light a fire. Now again I will wait for your complaints about GOP and praising cheap/exploited labor.

You were asked to name the specific policies you were referring to.
But you reply with an anecdotal story, and made more unsubstantiated claims with no citation/source.

Sudden rise in cost of living?


History of the Cost of Living (investopedia.com)

A sudden rise since 1975, that we can absolutely credit the current administration for.


The US Cost of Living Is Rising -- And Many Americans Can't Afford It | GOBankingRates

You need to specify what policies you are referring to with citation/sources, and demonstrate that they originate from where you claim.

Last edited by Hiku - on 12 July 2021


Okay, lets pretend everything immigration has not changed at all. Illegal and otherwise. Also, crime along the border is the same.

"Actually to seek asylum its has nothing to do if your country is poor or dangerous, instead there needs to be some sort of persecution." You haven't seen the excuses being made by your party. Also, the policy has become just let em' in and never throw them out. This will be a burden on the country. More low skilled poor people among the many we already have. More people to require welfare of some sort.

I'm don't have the best command of the English language either, but the word is "segue." While Segway is that thing security people ride around on. Either way, I wasn't solely blaming foreigners for crime. Mostly the policies by the left that encourages decline in quality of life in general.

Looking solely at a state can be misleading. Instead, look closer at the cities. Hence, a red state can still have blue run cities which accounts for much of the crime. Some blue states also downplay the high number of dead bodies just by looking at murders per capita. The demographics of crime tend to be much the same around the country. I think much of it goes ignored because not putting away the dregs of society is somehow important.

A while back I was having a discussion with someone about crime in Alaska. It has a high murder rate per capita, among the highest in domestic violence in the country, etc. Then I took a closer look at where the crime was happening, demographics and voting trends of those areas. Needless to say, that ended in me being called racist.

Lets not pretend anything, show me where it changed.  Again we dance around you and your opinion where you like to pretend its fact, and I keep asking you to back it up.  I do not need to pretend anything because I am waiting on you to provide the data to your claim.  At this point after dancing around this point enough that its not coming but we can pretend that one day you will make the effort.

Here is how I know you really have no clue about what you are talking about.  Case in point on the asylum part.  You cannot provide one ounce of data to prove your point but instead throw out some garbage about "let them in".  What policy just allow any asylum seeking immigrant to just come into the US.  What are the classification that it takes to be considered.  This is a topic I am quite verse in since my wife came to the US under Asylum so there are a lot of very strict policy she had to do in order to even get a court date.  We have also tried to get other family members here under asylum but the process and wait are years.  Anyway, keep telling me about these Dems policies you for some reason have no clue on or can find because that is pretty much where we keep going with this conversation.

Lol, I probably did spell segway wrong, go figure.  Now that's out of the way, what policy did the left as you continue to claim has brought down the quality of life.

Ok, so you are saying that high crime is only within the blue cities, are you sure you want to go with that opinion or do you want to actually look it up first.  As you stated, you might want to use google.

The word racist get used for everything today so I understand if someone just threw it at you based on your opinion.  The word has lost its meaning in today's climate because its something auto used for just about everything.

Instead, what most people are looking for is the word prejudice.  A Racist is definitely prejudice but someone who is prejudice does not have to be racist.  



Mr Puggsly said:

Just to show how much of a centrist I can be, I actually believe fairly high minimum wages can be a good thing when you have so much low skill labor in the market. But it seems like some people will argue paying people below minimum wage (like illegals) is also a good thing to keep prices down. Which I find bizarre, do we want workers being exploited in this country as long as they aren't citizens?

So who exactly claimed that paying illegals lower than minimum wage was a good thing.  This is where reading comprehension comes into play.  The reason we continue to have this conversation is because one party is very happy to keep the status quo.  Giving the current undocumented people worker permits and IDs was something ventured by the Dems.  Now guess what that would have done, allow those undocumented workers to be taxed and also their wages would then have to meet state minimum.  This population isn't going anywhere soon but only one party is happy with things the way it is.  That party has developed a pretty good game plan putting fear into their base that those nasty undocumented immigrants are stealing their jobs, on welfare and committing all kinds of crime.  Its a tried and true gameplay of keeping their constitute in fear because fear is a powerful drug.



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Machiavellian said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Just to show how much of a centrist I can be, I actually believe fairly high minimum wages can be a good thing when you have so much low skill labor in the market. But it seems like some people will argue paying people below minimum wage (like illegals) is also a good thing to keep prices down. Which I find bizarre, do we want workers being exploited in this country as long as they aren't citizens?

So who exactly claimed that paying illegals lower than minimum wage was a good thing.  This is where reading comprehension comes into play.  The reason we continue to have this conversation is because one party is very happy to keep the status quo.  Giving the current undocumented people worker permits and IDs was something ventured by the Dems.  Now guess what that would have done, allow those undocumented workers to be taxed and also their wages would then have to meet state minimum.  This population isn't going anywhere soon but only one party is happy with things the way it is.  That party has developed a pretty good game plan putting fear into their base that those nasty undocumented immigrants are stealing their jobs, on welfare and committing all kinds of crime.  Its a tried and true gameplay of keeping their constitute in fear because fear is a powerful drug.

"So who exactly claimed that paying illegals lower than minimum wage was a good thing." Anybody who ever said immigrants are great for keeping prices down. Its a common argument.

"The reason we continue to have this conversation is because one party is very happy to keep the status quo." And a certain party is too lax on opening the borders. At best you're in a situation where one side doesn't budge enough and the other is happy to reduce quality of life to stay in power.

"Giving the current undocumented people worker permits and IDs was something ventured by the Dems." At first I thought that might be okay until I realized all the privileges that can also come with. It also encourages behavior we should be discouraging.

"This population isn't going anywhere soon but only one party is happy with things the way it is." Agreed, that's point of open borders.

"That party has developed a pretty good game plan putting fear into their base that those nasty undocumented immigrants are stealing their jobs, on welfare and committing all kinds of crime." Again, adding millions of people to low skill people to the workforce does little for improving quality of life. Which is why big city folk tend to be most vocal about costs of living. Not all people on welfare commit crime, but there seem to be a correlation.

Fear is indeed a powerful drug. Which is why BLM has been so successful. I can't take a walk without white supremacists beating me and throwing bleach on me. In fact, I think all the murders in the hood is actually MAGA people. They shot over 100 in Chicago 4th of July weekend.

I don't get the constant reiterating that I live in fear. We are already seeing the results of left wing ideology and I am enjoying the results. People deserve what they get.

I am getting very bored repeating myself. Any new thoughts?



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Hiku said:

You were asked to name the specific policies you were referring to.
But you reply with an anecdotal story, and made more unsubstantiated claims with no citation/source.

Sudden rise in cost of living?


History of the Cost of Living (investopedia.com)

A sudden rise since 1975, that we can absolutely credit the current administration for.


The US Cost of Living Is Rising -- And Many Americans Can't Afford It | GOBankingRates

You need to specify what policies you are referring to with citation/sources, and demonstrate that they originate from where you claim.

Housing isn't the only thing that has risen in price in recent months. Virtually everything has, its almost like the our money has become worth less. I can't figure out why though...



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Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

So who exactly claimed that paying illegals lower than minimum wage was a good thing.  This is where reading comprehension comes into play.  The reason we continue to have this conversation is because one party is very happy to keep the status quo.  Giving the current undocumented people worker permits and IDs was something ventured by the Dems.  Now guess what that would have done, allow those undocumented workers to be taxed and also their wages would then have to meet state minimum.  This population isn't going anywhere soon but only one party is happy with things the way it is.  That party has developed a pretty good game plan putting fear into their base that those nasty undocumented immigrants are stealing their jobs, on welfare and committing all kinds of crime.  Its a tried and true gameplay of keeping their constitute in fear because fear is a powerful drug.

"So who exactly claimed that paying illegals lower than minimum wage was a good thing." Anybody who ever said immigrants are great for keeping prices down. Its a common argument.

"The reason we continue to have this conversation is because one party is very happy to keep the status quo." And a certain party is too lax on opening the borders. At best you're in a situation where one side doesn't budge enough and the other is happy to reduce quality of life to stay in power.

"Giving the current undocumented people worker permits and IDs was something ventured by the Dems." At first I thought that might be okay until I realized all the privileges that can also come with. It also encourages behavior we should be discouraging.

"This population isn't going anywhere soon but only one party is happy with things the way it is." Agreed, that's point of open borders.

"That party has developed a pretty good game plan putting fear into their base that those nasty undocumented immigrants are stealing their jobs, on welfare and committing all kinds of crime." Again, adding millions of people to low skill people to the workforce does little for improving quality of life. Which is why big city folk tend to be most vocal about costs of living. Not all people on welfare commit crime, but there seem to be a correlation.

Fear is indeed a powerful drug. Which is why BLM has been so successful. I can't take a walk without white supremacists beating me and throwing bleach on me. In fact, I think all the murders in the hood is actually MAGA people. They shot over 100 in Chicago 4th of July weekend.

I don't get the constant reiterating that I live in fear. We are already seeing the results of left wing ideology and I am enjoying the results. People deserve what they get.

I am getting very bored repeating myself. Any new thoughts?

Are you saying BLM members have beat you and thrown bleach on you.  Where exactly did that happen but if so that is pretty bad.  While I know in the conservative media, Antifa and BLM hold a special place in their heart but the Department of Homeland Security has a nice document where they believe the far right hate groups pose a significant threat to the US.  You do know that there is over 6K far right hate groups that commit crimes, murder and acts of terrorism.  So while getting beat or bleach thrown on you is pretty crappy, at least you are alive unlike a lot of people who come in contact with those groups mentioned in the DHS article.

I noticed when people want to talk about black crime or murder, they always go to Chicago.  Its the go to city as if black people only live in that one city in the US.  Its the banner place for conservative media because they can always say, "What about Chicago".  I see you are taking that same tactic.  The funny part is that I find that same group love to talk about black on black crime or murder but when you look at the statistics it shows white people kill more white people just as much if not more.  That's a stat that never gets into the conservative media because well, its not a good narrative.  Do not worry, as long as you have Chicago to talk about you can ignore everything else.

Its not more of you living in fear then you accepting the fear rhetoric of the current GOP party.  Currently this is their platform.  Fear everything because it will tear the US apart.  Fear Homosexuals because they are an affront to your GOD.  Fear immigrants because they take import low income jobs away from you.  They live on welfare that they cannot obtain and murder and commit crime which stats shows that they are the lowest group on both.  The reason why I say you live in fear is because you continue to use the talking points of that party and thus you have conditioned yourself whether you know it or not to believe in those statements without actually doing any real research on the subject.

The boring part is that not once have you even tried to support your opinion.  I actually thought you might have something to discuss or some data we all could look at and analyze but instead you basically just dropped some pure opinion.  You should have done the drop the opinion and then peace out since you really had no interest in defending your claim besides the usual Dems are bad.  You are right, you never really did have anything to bring to the conversation so why don't you just drop your opinion and do the peace out.  



Machiavellian said:
Mr Puggsly said:

"So who exactly claimed that paying illegals lower than minimum wage was a good thing." Anybody who ever said immigrants are great for keeping prices down. Its a common argument.

"The reason we continue to have this conversation is because one party is very happy to keep the status quo." And a certain party is too lax on opening the borders. At best you're in a situation where one side doesn't budge enough and the other is happy to reduce quality of life to stay in power.

"Giving the current undocumented people worker permits and IDs was something ventured by the Dems." At first I thought that might be okay until I realized all the privileges that can also come with. It also encourages behavior we should be discouraging.

"This population isn't going anywhere soon but only one party is happy with things the way it is." Agreed, that's point of open borders.

"That party has developed a pretty good game plan putting fear into their base that those nasty undocumented immigrants are stealing their jobs, on welfare and committing all kinds of crime." Again, adding millions of people to low skill people to the workforce does little for improving quality of life. Which is why big city folk tend to be most vocal about costs of living. Not all people on welfare commit crime, but there seem to be a correlation.

Fear is indeed a powerful drug. Which is why BLM has been so successful. I can't take a walk without white supremacists beating me and throwing bleach on me. In fact, I think all the murders in the hood is actually MAGA people. They shot over 100 in Chicago 4th of July weekend.

I don't get the constant reiterating that I live in fear. We are already seeing the results of left wing ideology and I am enjoying the results. People deserve what they get.

I am getting very bored repeating myself. Any new thoughts?

Are you saying BLM members have beat you and thrown bleach on you.  Where exactly did that happen but if so that is pretty bad.  While I know in the conservative media, Antifa and BLM hold a special place in their heart but the Department of Homeland Security has a nice document where they believe the far right hate groups pose a significant threat to the US.  You do know that there is over 6K far right hate groups that commit crimes, murder and acts of terrorism.  So while getting beat or bleach thrown on you is pretty crappy, at least you are alive unlike a lot of people who come in contact with those groups mentioned in the DHS article.

I noticed when people want to talk about black crime or murder, they always go to Chicago.  Its the go to city as if black people only live in that one city in the US.  Its the banner place for conservative media because they can always say, "What about Chicago".  I see you are taking that same tactic.  The funny part is that I find that same group love to talk about black on black crime or murder but when you look at the statistics it shows white people kill more white people just as much if not more.  That's a stat that never gets into the conservative media because well, its not a good narrative.  Do not worry, as long as you have Chicago to talk about you can ignore everything else.

Its not more of you living in fear then you accepting the fear rhetoric of the current GOP party.  Currently this is their platform.  Fear everything because it will tear the US apart.  Fear Homosexuals because they are an affront to your GOD.  Fear immigrants because they take import low income jobs away from you.  They live on welfare that they cannot obtain and murder and commit crime which stats shows that they are the lowest group on both.  The reason why I say you live in fear is because you continue to use the talking points of that party and thus you have conditioned yourself whether you know it or not to believe in those statements without actually doing any real research on the subject.

The boring part is that not once have you even tried to support your opinion.  I actually thought you might have something to discuss or some data we all could look at and analyze but instead you basically just dropped some pure opinion.  You should have done the drop the opinion and then peace out since you really had no interest in defending your claim besides the usual Dems are bad.  You are right, you never really did have anything to bring to the conversation so why don't you just drop your opinion and do the peace out.  

Wow, over 6000 far right hate groups that commit crimes, murders and acts of terrorism?! That's very scary! I hope people recognize much of the real threats has little to do with hate groups. I think most of them just share memes and disagree with left wing ideologies. I mean stats just don't reflect those groups to be a major issue per se. Pretty sure Juggalos are still a hate group by the way.

The problem with Chicago is the crime in general. It would still be a testament to bad leadership regardless what color was committing the crime. Also, anytime they entertain solutions its always neglecting the real problems and blaming other cities/states. I don't wanna talk too much about overall murder statistics, that would be racist to even look at.

Okay, so I'm not living in fear, but I should instead embrace left wing ideas? The left's ideas right now are fear whitey, everything is literally racist and we need more democrats in power to solve all our problems. I could elaborate but I won't. People are more bothered by LGBT ideologies than actual homosexuals, its actually a parody at this point. Again, the open border solution is not beneficial compared to a merit based solution and work visas. Quality of life will decline with this kind of leadership.

Hey, if I'm boring you... I hope you can find a solution. My responses are for my entertainment.



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Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

Immigrants provide labor in centrally important areas of our economy (especially important given our aging population), have higher labor force participation rates, higher rates of starting businesses and higher economic mobility than native born workers. Immigrants are holding up our economy, not holding it back. Providing citizenship to undocumented individuals would allow them to utilize their full potential in bringing economic success to the country, adding jobs, increasing wages and productivity and increasing GDP.

If you want higher labor participation then flooding the country with immigrants that may not have a right to work is probably not the best solution (illegal and otherwise). Also, maybe get rid of welfare that encourages people to stay out of the workforce. With some sort of merit based immigration the country could get what it needs as opposed to more low skill labor, some of which will certainly rely on financial assistance.

Just to show how much of a centrist I can be, I actually believe fairly high minimum wages can be a good thing when you have so much low skill labor in the market. But it seems like some people will argue paying people below minimum wage (like illegals) is also a good thing to keep prices down. Which I find bizarre, do we want workers being exploited in this country as long as they aren't citizens?

I think you have me confused with someone that's anti immigrant or something. I see the value immigrants can bring, which is different than an open borders solution.

Anyway, democrats aren't simply concerned with making sure our aging population is taken care of. Tax revenue needs to increase vastly for all their welfare ambitions. Furthermore, white supremacy and climate change is our WWII, its gonna cost trillions to combat that.

Population size doesn't decimate labor force participation though. If it did, we would have been fucked decades ago, because population is growing, and fast. Luckily, that didn't happen. Why? Because when people enter the country, they create jobs. What is holding back our current labor participation rate isn't immigrants, it is old people. Our population is aging and leaving the work force, so labor participation is decreasing. This creates negative effects for the economy like difficulty filling some jobs. Immigrants tend to be young and work at high rates, which improves the labor participation rate and helps mitigate the negative effects of an aging population.