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Forums - Politics Discussion - 'Heartbreaking' conditions in US migrant child camp

Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

"What crime stats shows otherwise." I look at the stats of crimes for the country. You can even see the number of murders for individual states or cities. Chicago has the most murders and that's why its a favorite example and its controlled by dems. Just to clarify, the biggest pile of murdered bodies.

"I have no clue about San Fran, what about it." The dems control it and it has turned into shit. If you don't know any specifics, that's okay. People that oppose the left tend to be aware of which major cities are falling apart and who is in power.

"The problem is you never actually listed anything.  You stated about bad policy but cannot produce one policy." I did a quick search and found this... https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/03/22/key-facts-about-u-s-immigration-policies-and-bidens-proposed-changes/

"we go into it more indebt." For the record, indebt is not a word. "In debt" is but not relevant. What you mean is, "in depth."

 "If that is too much reading I understand, its way easier to just form an opinion from headlines then really understanding a particular issue." You should educate judges, not me.

"What exactly is the LGBT and BLM have in common." Pinkos.

Sundin did a pretty good job of answering you on the crime stat and the immigration which I might add I am still wondering if we will ever get anything concrete from you on the policy that you believe is bringing chaos to the boarder.

What part of San Fran is shit and what policy from the Dems contribute to it.  Why would I know any specifics since you did not give any.  I do not live in San Fran so why would I care.  Enlighten me on the data that supports your opinion.  Nothing is easier then throwing out some opinion with absolutely nothing more to it then "Its controlled by Dems".  As I always find when you ask people on specifics well they seem to never have any. Its the reason why I feel the majority of the time context just seems to escape you.  All you need is that a Dem controls something and that's it but you cannot provide anything else which show a lack of even cursory attempt to look at the issues.

Thank your for correcting my spelling of inDebt, now that we got that out of the way, did you actually read the articles or did you just do what I knew you would do and ignore it.

I actually do not need to educate the judges because the issue I linked about no judge overruled it.  Maybe you need to actually look at the issue first before responding.  Is it really that hard to go deeper into an issue besides the cursory aspect you seem to show.  Most of your opinions seem to be just that cursory. If a headline says something, you probably never actually read it as long as it appear to support your opinion.

So let me ask this question, do you fear socialism.



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sundin13 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

"What crime stats shows otherwise." I look at the stats of crimes for the country. You can even see the number of murders for individual states or cities. Chicago has the most murders and that's why its a favorite example and its controlled by dems. Just to clarify, the biggest pile of murdered bodies.

"I have no clue about San Fran, what about it." The dems control it and it has turned into shit. If you don't know any specifics, that's okay. People that oppose the left tend to be aware of which major cities are falling apart and who is in power.

"The problem is you never actually listed anything.  You stated about bad policy but cannot produce one policy." I did a quick search and found this... https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/03/22/key-facts-about-u-s-immigration-policies-and-bidens-proposed-changes/

"we go into it more indebt." For the record, indebt is not a word. "In debt" is but not relevant. What you mean is, "in depth."

 "If that is too much reading I understand, its way easier to just form an opinion from headlines then really understanding a particular issue." You should educate judges, not me.

"What exactly is the LGBT and BLM have in common." Pinkos.

First of all, when the DHS talks about the biggest threat to this country, they are talking about Domestic Terror threats. You can't really apply this to overall crime trends, because they aren't talking about the same thing. As you stated Pugs, domestic terror make up a fairly small part of the overall crime picture, so it doesn't really make sense to blame any group (eg. Neo Nazis or BLM or Antifa) for the recent increase in crime.

But it is also important to note that the recent increase in crime is just that: Recent. The overall trend of violent crime rates has shown that they have been decreasing since around 1991. If you want to blame all of the country's issues on increased liberalism, it seems kind of arbitrary to say "Okay, so the increase in the last year is because of Democratic policy, but the decline over the past three decades isn't". 

If you go into more depth on this recent increase, it becomes even harder to point to Democratic policies as the impetus. There was roughly a 26% increase in homicides between 2019 and 2020 in Republican cities, and no correlation between the number of BLM protests and the increase in the homicide rate, so your hypothesis doesn't seem to be supported by data.

As for your claims regarding immigration, you can't just point to Biden's platform, you have to explain why it is bad and provide evidence of the issues that you believe the specific policies cause. 

In regard to your first paragraph. I don't believe right wing groups are a serious threat, not sure if you agree. In fact, I don't believe they can be because our government would come down on them very harshly if they behaved like BLM or Antifa. I also believe the media would love if right wing groups were a bigger threat, they would love that narrative to really be true.

I'm gonna be frank, crime has risen around the country. RISING CRIME IS NOT JUST A BLUE CITY/STATE ISSUE... HOWEVER, there is a disparity around the country given how its being responded too. The cities that opted to demoralize police or reduce their efforts are seeing a bigger impact. Hence, its accurate to say crime rising is a recent problem. But its clearly affect blue cities more significantly, I mean we saw where major riots occurred for example. To the contrary, people attempting riot in my city didn't have much luck.

"you can't just point to Biden's platform." Actually, I can do that and we see the results.



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Machiavellian said:
Mr Puggsly said:

"What crime stats shows otherwise." I look at the stats of crimes for the country. You can even see the number of murders for individual states or cities. Chicago has the most murders and that's why its a favorite example and its controlled by dems. Just to clarify, the biggest pile of murdered bodies.

"I have no clue about San Fran, what about it." The dems control it and it has turned into shit. If you don't know any specifics, that's okay. People that oppose the left tend to be aware of which major cities are falling apart and who is in power.

"The problem is you never actually listed anything.  You stated about bad policy but cannot produce one policy." I did a quick search and found this... https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/03/22/key-facts-about-u-s-immigration-policies-and-bidens-proposed-changes/

"we go into it more indebt." For the record, indebt is not a word. "In debt" is but not relevant. What you mean is, "in depth."

 "If that is too much reading I understand, its way easier to just form an opinion from headlines then really understanding a particular issue." You should educate judges, not me.

"What exactly is the LGBT and BLM have in common." Pinkos.

Sundin did a pretty good job of answering you on the crime stat and the immigration which I might add I am still wondering if we will ever get anything concrete from you on the policy that you believe is bringing chaos to the boarder.

What part of San Fran is shit and what policy from the Dems contribute to it.  Why would I know any specifics since you did not give any.  I do not live in San Fran so why would I care.  Enlighten me on the data that supports your opinion.  Nothing is easier then throwing out some opinion with absolutely nothing more to it then "Its controlled by Dems".  As I always find when you ask people on specifics well they seem to never have any. Its the reason why I feel the majority of the time context just seems to escape you.  All you need is that a Dem controls something and that's it but you cannot provide anything else which show a lack of even cursory attempt to look at the issues.

Thank your for correcting my spelling of inDebt, now that we got that out of the way, did you actually read the articles or did you just do what I knew you would do and ignore it.

I actually do not need to educate the judges because the issue I linked about no judge overruled it.  Maybe you need to actually look at the issue first before responding.  Is it really that hard to go deeper into an issue besides the cursory aspect you seem to show.  Most of your opinions seem to be just that cursory. If a headline says something, you probably never actually read it as long as it appear to support your opinion.

So let me ask this question, do you fear socialism.

This is you in a nutshell. "Please ignore the results of the Biden administration, just show me policy!" I think you're smart enough to know you're being intellectually dishonest. You're shilling hard, bro.

I think you misunderstood some points... and I'm not gonna elaborate.

No, I didn't read the links. Are they even relevant? I'm focused more on results of the current administration. Do your links prove the current administration has no influence on the current results? I doubt it. I'm not even sure we are talking about the same thing. Maybe you're trying to pull a straw man but I refuse to get dragged there.

Do I fear socialism? Does it matter? My main focus is the current administration is lowering quality of life for the average person. More importantly, I want people to continue suffering for having faith in such corrupt leadership.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

Sundin did a pretty good job of answering you on the crime stat and the immigration which I might add I am still wondering if we will ever get anything concrete from you on the policy that you believe is bringing chaos to the boarder.

What part of San Fran is shit and what policy from the Dems contribute to it.  Why would I know any specifics since you did not give any.  I do not live in San Fran so why would I care.  Enlighten me on the data that supports your opinion.  Nothing is easier then throwing out some opinion with absolutely nothing more to it then "Its controlled by Dems".  As I always find when you ask people on specifics well they seem to never have any. Its the reason why I feel the majority of the time context just seems to escape you.  All you need is that a Dem controls something and that's it but you cannot provide anything else which show a lack of even cursory attempt to look at the issues.

Thank your for correcting my spelling of inDebt, now that we got that out of the way, did you actually read the articles or did you just do what I knew you would do and ignore it.

I actually do not need to educate the judges because the issue I linked about no judge overruled it.  Maybe you need to actually look at the issue first before responding.  Is it really that hard to go deeper into an issue besides the cursory aspect you seem to show.  Most of your opinions seem to be just that cursory. If a headline says something, you probably never actually read it as long as it appear to support your opinion.

So let me ask this question, do you fear socialism.

This is you in a nutshell. "Please ignore the results of the Biden administration, just show me policy!" I think you're smart enough to know you're being intellectually dishonest. You're shilling hard, bro.

I think you misunderstood some points... and I'm not gonna elaborate.

No, I didn't read the links. Are they even relevant? I'm focused more on results of the current administration. Do your links prove the current administration has no influence on the current results? I doubt it. I'm not even sure we are talking about the same thing. Maybe you're trying to pull a straw man but I refuse to get dragged there.

Do I fear socialism? Does it matter? My main focus is the current administration is lowering quality of life for the average person. More importantly, I want people to continue suffering for having faith in such corrupt leadership.

Its hard to ignore something when the person making claims have not given anything.  Its not I who is saying the Biden administration immigration policy is causing chaos at the boarder its you.  How can I ignore something when I cannot get one policy from you that is causing the issue.  If you have nothing just admit it and move on.  You keep waffling on this point but seem to lack the ability to bring the goods.  I actually was willing to listen to which policy you are talking about but we cannot seem to get that important piece from you.

Its good you are not going to elaborate, I really did not think you were ready since we cannot get anything real on the immigration point.

Trust me, I already knew you would not read anything, it was a given.  Its the reason why most people form opinions without ever understanding the subject.  Why waste time understanding a subject when you can just form a bias opinion without context.  The links I provided was in context to the effort of the administration addressing an issue with minority farmers.  It was directed towards your statement about Biden policy favoring minorities.  I chose that one topic because there are a few but who needs to go over all of them.  Even then you could not muster the basic ability to read up on the issue but instead are more willing to hold on to your opinion never to have it challenged in fear you may be ignorant of the subject.

Man you sound like a Dem.  I believe they were saying the same thing during the Trump administration. Anyway, here we are again with another broad statement but with nothing behind it.  How exactly is the current administration dropping the quality of life you hold so dear.  Personally, I have not experienced any change between my quality of life between Obama, Trump or Biden but then again, I might not be in the same bracket as you.  So what is the change that has dropped your quality of life I am guessing from Trump to Biden.



Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

First of all, when the DHS talks about the biggest threat to this country, they are talking about Domestic Terror threats. You can't really apply this to overall crime trends, because they aren't talking about the same thing. As you stated Pugs, domestic terror make up a fairly small part of the overall crime picture, so it doesn't really make sense to blame any group (eg. Neo Nazis or BLM or Antifa) for the recent increase in crime.

But it is also important to note that the recent increase in crime is just that: Recent. The overall trend of violent crime rates has shown that they have been decreasing since around 1991. If you want to blame all of the country's issues on increased liberalism, it seems kind of arbitrary to say "Okay, so the increase in the last year is because of Democratic policy, but the decline over the past three decades isn't". 

If you go into more depth on this recent increase, it becomes even harder to point to Democratic policies as the impetus. There was roughly a 26% increase in homicides between 2019 and 2020 in Republican cities, and no correlation between the number of BLM protests and the increase in the homicide rate, so your hypothesis doesn't seem to be supported by data.

As for your claims regarding immigration, you can't just point to Biden's platform, you have to explain why it is bad and provide evidence of the issues that you believe the specific policies cause. 

In regard to your first paragraph. I don't believe right wing groups are a serious threat, not sure if you agree. In fact, I don't believe they can be because our government would come down on them very harshly if they behaved like BLM or Antifa. I also believe the media would love if right wing groups were a bigger threat, they would love that narrative to really be true.

I'm gonna be frank, crime has risen around the country. RISING CRIME IS NOT JUST A BLUE CITY/STATE ISSUE... HOWEVER, there is a disparity around the country given how its being responded too. The cities that opted to demoralize police or reduce their efforts are seeing a bigger impact. Hence, its accurate to say crime rising is a recent problem. But its clearly affect blue cities more significantly, I mean we saw where major riots occurred for example. To the contrary, people attempting riot in my city didn't have much luck.

"you can't just point to Biden's platform." Actually, I can do that and we see the results.

I would agree that when speaking about the overall scope of crime in the United States, far right groups wouldn't make much of a dent, but that doesn't mean they aren't of concern. Several mass shooting events in the last few years have been motivated by far right views such as the El Paso Walmart shooting and the Pittsburgh Synagogue shooting, so it is certainly a threat worth addressing. I'm not going to address the nonsense in the rest of this first paragraph. 

As for the second paragraph, you haven't really backed this up with much evidence. As previously stated, analyses of BLM protests show that there is not a correlation between such protests and increases in violent crime, so this generally serves as a fairly poor hypothesis to explain the increase in crime. Further, I would just like to add that when the police murder people, causing people to lose faith in them, the blame for this should rest on the police and it is up to them to regain trust by listening to the communities they serve. 

And for the last paragraph, correlation doesn't equal causation. Do better.



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Machiavellian said:
Mr Puggsly said:

This is you in a nutshell. "Please ignore the results of the Biden administration, just show me policy!" I think you're smart enough to know you're being intellectually dishonest. You're shilling hard, bro.

I think you misunderstood some points... and I'm not gonna elaborate.

No, I didn't read the links. Are they even relevant? I'm focused more on results of the current administration. Do your links prove the current administration has no influence on the current results? I doubt it. I'm not even sure we are talking about the same thing. Maybe you're trying to pull a straw man but I refuse to get dragged there.

Do I fear socialism? Does it matter? My main focus is the current administration is lowering quality of life for the average person. More importantly, I want people to continue suffering for having faith in such corrupt leadership.

Its hard to ignore something when the person making claims have not given anything.  Its not I who is saying the Biden administration immigration policy is causing chaos at the boarder its you.  How can I ignore something when I cannot get one policy from you that is causing the issue.  If you have nothing just admit it and move on.  You keep waffling on this point but seem to lack the ability to bring the goods.  I actually was willing to listen to which policy you are talking about but we cannot seem to get that important piece from you.

Its good you are not going to elaborate, I really did not think you were ready since we cannot get anything real on the immigration point.

Trust me, I already knew you would not read anything, it was a given.  Its the reason why most people form opinions without ever understanding the subject.  Why waste time understanding a subject when you can just form a bias opinion without context.  The links I provided was in context to the effort of the administration addressing an issue with minority farmers.  It was directed towards your statement about Biden policy favoring minorities.  I chose that one topic because there are a few but who needs to go over all of them.  Even then you could not muster the basic ability to read up on the issue but instead are more willing to hold on to your opinion never to have it challenged in fear you may be ignorant of the subject.

Man you sound like a Dem.  I believe they were saying the same thing during the Trump administration. Anyway, here we are again with another broad statement but with nothing behind it.  How exactly is the current administration dropping the quality of life you hold so dear.  Personally, I have not experienced any change between my quality of life between Obama, Trump or Biden but then again, I might not be in the same bracket as you.  So what is the change that has dropped your quality of life I am guessing from Trump to Biden.

"Its hard to ignore something when the person making claims have not given anything." The results my friend, the results.

"Trust me, I already knew you would not read anything, it was a given.  Its the reason why most people form opinions without ever understanding the subject." Opinion? No, look at the results of the administration.

"Man you sound like a Dem." Good, then I must be a centrist.

"Personally, I have not experienced any change between my quality of life between Obama, Trump or Biden but then again, I might not be in the same bracket as you." Cost of living has gone up for virtually everybody. Am I feeling the hurt from it? Not really. I have used the volatility to make a few bucks in the stock market as well. Essentially I feel like a prophet, I said what's gonna happen and I've been right about a lot. But even though I've been right about a lot, lefties tend to say I'm wrong even with the current results or just say I am racist.

I genuinely would be fine if the country keeps going in the direction its going and more people suffer. Its well deserved.

Last edited by Mr Puggsly - on 22 July 2021

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sundin13 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

In regard to your first paragraph. I don't believe right wing groups are a serious threat, not sure if you agree. In fact, I don't believe they can be because our government would come down on them very harshly if they behaved like BLM or Antifa. I also believe the media would love if right wing groups were a bigger threat, they would love that narrative to really be true.

I'm gonna be frank, crime has risen around the country. RISING CRIME IS NOT JUST A BLUE CITY/STATE ISSUE... HOWEVER, there is a disparity around the country given how its being responded too. The cities that opted to demoralize police or reduce their efforts are seeing a bigger impact. Hence, its accurate to say crime rising is a recent problem. But its clearly affect blue cities more significantly, I mean we saw where major riots occurred for example. To the contrary, people attempting riot in my city didn't have much luck.

"you can't just point to Biden's platform." Actually, I can do that and we see the results.

I would agree that when speaking about the overall scope of crime in the United States, far right groups wouldn't make much of a dent, but that doesn't mean they aren't of concern. Several mass shooting events in the last few years have been motivated by far right views such as the El Paso Walmart shooting and the Pittsburgh Synagogue shooting, so it is certainly a threat worth addressing. I'm not going to address the nonsense in the rest of this first paragraph. 

As for the second paragraph, you haven't really backed this up with much evidence. As previously stated, analyses of BLM protests show that there is not a correlation between such protests and increases in violent crime, so this generally serves as a fairly poor hypothesis to explain the increase in crime. Further, I would just like to add that when the police murder people, causing people to lose faith in them, the blame for this should rest on the police and it is up to them to regain trust by listening to the communities they serve. 

And for the last paragraph, correlation doesn't equal causation. Do better.

"I would agree that when speaking about the overall scope of crime in the United States, far right groups wouldn't make much of a dent, but that doesn't mean they aren't of concern." Individuals with extreme views committing violence comes from all sides. Many mass shootings are also gang related. The media love the right wing stuff for a narrative. Either way, I think we agree overall violent crime has little to do with extremist people/groups. Extremist groups committing crime do need to be dealt with, but the primary reasons people don't feel safe has little to do with them.

I think you're confused by my second paragraph. The primary point was blue cities are seeing a bigger increase in crime due to them essentially demoralizing police without having any other solution to deal with crime. And I'm glad that's happening, people that assume the worst of police but not criminals deserve what they get. Although, gun sales have gone up significantly because people do recognize criminals need to die.

My perspective is the police are people that deal with the worst of our communities. If people want less police and more guns to kill criminals, I kinda like that. We are like the Wild West again.



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Mr Puggsly said:

I think you're confused by my second paragraph. The primary point was blue cities are seeing a bigger increase in crime due to them essentially demoralizing police without having any other solution to deal with crime. And I'm glad that's happening, people that assume the worst of police but not criminals deserve what they get. Although, gun sales have gone up significantly because people do recognize criminals need to die.

My perspective is the police are people that deal with the worst of our communities. If people want less police and more guns to kill criminals, I kinda like that. We are like the Wild West again.

So, what role do you think the police have in regards to community perceptions of police after an officer involved shooting? 

I believe that what we saw over the last year is a response to police misconduct. Police may not like that response, but I am of the belief that it is then their responsibility to re-earn the trust that they lost. As of now, it seems that they are not willing to do this. As such, I place the majority of the blame for the tensions between community members and police on the police for failing in their duty and for then failing to regain that trust, not on the community members who criticize them for their misconduct. 



sundin13 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I think you're confused by my second paragraph. The primary point was blue cities are seeing a bigger increase in crime due to them essentially demoralizing police without having any other solution to deal with crime. And I'm glad that's happening, people that assume the worst of police but not criminals deserve what they get. Although, gun sales have gone up significantly because people do recognize criminals need to die.

My perspective is the police are people that deal with the worst of our communities. If people want less police and more guns to kill criminals, I kinda like that. We are like the Wild West again.

So, what role do you think the police have in regards to community perceptions of police after an officer involved shooting? 

I believe that what we saw over the last year is a response to police misconduct. Police may not like that response, but I am of the belief that it is then their responsibility to re-earn the trust that they lost. As of now, it seems that they are not willing to do this. As such, I place the majority of the blame for the tensions between community members and police on the police for failing in their duty and for then failing to regain that trust, not on the community members who criticize them for their misconduct. 

Re-earn trust among the left? People that have often complained and tend to make excuses for criminal behavior. I personally look at the incidents or what cities require police to do.

I'm clearly not looking for a big debate. In short, cities will get what they deserve. If you don't trust or want to rely on police, then enjoy the rising crime. We've actually seen a population decline in certain cities and states partly for this reason. I mean why tolerate high costs of living when it also means you have to deal with havoc in the streets? The best reason to live in expensive areas is to avoid the poor and/or criminals.

If cities want to demoralize police, I would suggest have plan. Not just giving criminals more freedom. In some cities, more police officers have been wanting to retire than the cities allowed.

It seems like NYC is actually going to pick a mayor simply for his focus on crime, that shows there still may be some sanity in that city. He even admitted mass shootings are a problem with handguns in colored communities. Not often a democrat will admit that.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

Its hard to ignore something when the person making claims have not given anything.  Its not I who is saying the Biden administration immigration policy is causing chaos at the boarder its you.  How can I ignore something when I cannot get one policy from you that is causing the issue.  If you have nothing just admit it and move on.  You keep waffling on this point but seem to lack the ability to bring the goods.  I actually was willing to listen to which policy you are talking about but we cannot seem to get that important piece from you.

Its good you are not going to elaborate, I really did not think you were ready since we cannot get anything real on the immigration point.

Trust me, I already knew you would not read anything, it was a given.  Its the reason why most people form opinions without ever understanding the subject.  Why waste time understanding a subject when you can just form a bias opinion without context.  The links I provided was in context to the effort of the administration addressing an issue with minority farmers.  It was directed towards your statement about Biden policy favoring minorities.  I chose that one topic because there are a few but who needs to go over all of them.  Even then you could not muster the basic ability to read up on the issue but instead are more willing to hold on to your opinion never to have it challenged in fear you may be ignorant of the subject.

Man you sound like a Dem.  I believe they were saying the same thing during the Trump administration. Anyway, here we are again with another broad statement but with nothing behind it.  How exactly is the current administration dropping the quality of life you hold so dear.  Personally, I have not experienced any change between my quality of life between Obama, Trump or Biden but then again, I might not be in the same bracket as you.  So what is the change that has dropped your quality of life I am guessing from Trump to Biden.

"Its hard to ignore something when the person making claims have not given anything." The results my friend, the results.

"Trust me, I already knew you would not read anything, it was a given.  Its the reason why most people form opinions without ever understanding the subject." Opinion? No, look at the results of the administration.

"Man you sound like a Dem." Good, then I must be a centrist.

"Personally, I have not experienced any change between my quality of life between Obama, Trump or Biden but then again, I might not be in the same bracket as you." Cost of living has gone up for virtually everybody. Am I feeling the hurt from it? Not really. I have used the volatility to make a few bucks in the stock market as well. Essentially I feel like a prophet, I said what's gonna happen and I've been right about a lot. But even though I've been right about a lot, lefties tend to say I'm wrong even with the current results or just say I am racist.

I genuinely would be fine if the country keeps going in the direction its going and more people suffer. Its well deserved.

Ahhh, another cope out.  Results.  So you tell us the current results are policy and administration changes but then you cannot provide either administration or policy change.  My friend that is some very poor logic.  Oh well, I believe we have established that you have nothing.  Maybe you should go back and read that document I posted on the seasonal migrant issue but then again you and I know you will not.  As long as the results can be manipulated to suit your opinion why waste time validating it.

Like I said, different topic but please try to keep up with your claims.  I guess you forget them from one moment to the next.

So what you are saying then the cost of living which pretty much always goes up wasn't as impactful as you seem to make it out to be.  Not sure what race has to do with anything but I am wondering exactly what is this huge cost of living you keep talking about.  Is it store goods and services, gas prices non food items, energy.  I mean I pay my bills and shop on a constant basis, not really sure exactly what you are saying or what particular policy has caused whatever you are talking about.  Actually I am not even sure you know what you are talking about since most of your statements are so general, you basically can pull anything out of thin air and make claims.