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Forums - Politics Discussion - 'Heartbreaking' conditions in US migrant child camp

Machiavellian said:
Mr Puggsly said:

"Its hard to ignore something when the person making claims have not given anything." The results my friend, the results.

"Trust me, I already knew you would not read anything, it was a given.  Its the reason why most people form opinions without ever understanding the subject." Opinion? No, look at the results of the administration.

"Man you sound like a Dem." Good, then I must be a centrist.

"Personally, I have not experienced any change between my quality of life between Obama, Trump or Biden but then again, I might not be in the same bracket as you." Cost of living has gone up for virtually everybody. Am I feeling the hurt from it? Not really. I have used the volatility to make a few bucks in the stock market as well. Essentially I feel like a prophet, I said what's gonna happen and I've been right about a lot. But even though I've been right about a lot, lefties tend to say I'm wrong even with the current results or just say I am racist.

I genuinely would be fine if the country keeps going in the direction its going and more people suffer. Its well deserved.

Ahhh, another cope out.  Results.  So you tell us the current results are policy and administration changes but then you cannot provide either administration or policy change.  My friend that is some very poor logic.  Oh well, I believe we have established that you have nothing.  Maybe you should go back and read that document I posted on the seasonal migrant issue but then again you and I know you will not.  As long as the results can be manipulated to suit your opinion why waste time validating it.

Like I said, different topic but please try to keep up with your claims.  I guess you forget them from one moment to the next.

So what you are saying then the cost of living which pretty much always goes up wasn't as impactful as you seem to make it out to be.  Not sure what race has to do with anything but I am wondering exactly what is this huge cost of living you keep talking about.  Is it store goods and services, gas prices non food items, energy.  I mean I pay my bills and shop on a constant basis, not really sure exactly what you are saying or what particular policy has caused whatever you are talking about.  Actually I am not even sure you know what you are talking about since most of your statements are so general, you basically can pull anything out of thin air and make claims.

"Ahhh, another cope out. Results." Its "cop out," not "cope out." And yes, results matter.

"So you tell us the current results are policy and administration changes but then you cannot provide either administration or policy change." You are too smart, I know you're well aware of policy changes. Especially the ones that have encouraged people to come to the US and has families flying all over the country waiting for their court hearing that are years away.

"So what you are saying then the cost of living which pretty much always goes up wasn't as impactful as you seem to make it out to be." I never complained about my personal living situation, per se. However, I do pay attention to the state of the country. I said quality of life on average is going down for various reasons, people just getting by are obviously gonna get hurt worse with the increased costs of living. The policies of the current administration are responsible. Big spending bills and tax increases will also increase costs of living further.

"Is it store goods and services, gas prices non food items, energy." Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Did a quick search for this... http://a.msn.com/00/en-us/AAM9CMY?ocid=st

There is also volatility given expectations of what the administrations might do or wants to do. That impacts prices.



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Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

So, what role do you think the police have in regards to community perceptions of police after an officer involved shooting? 

I believe that what we saw over the last year is a response to police misconduct. Police may not like that response, but I am of the belief that it is then their responsibility to re-earn the trust that they lost. As of now, it seems that they are not willing to do this. As such, I place the majority of the blame for the tensions between community members and police on the police for failing in their duty and for then failing to regain that trust, not on the community members who criticize them for their misconduct. 

Re-earn trust among the left? People that have often complained and tend to make excuses for criminal behavior. I personally look at the incidents or what cities require police to do.

I'm clearly not looking for a big debate. In short, cities will get what they deserve. If you don't trust or want to rely on police, then enjoy the rising crime. We've actually seen a population decline in certain cities and states partly for this reason. I mean why tolerate high costs of living when it also means you have to deal with havoc in the streets? The best reason to live in expensive areas is to avoid the poor and/or criminals.

If cities want to demoralize police, I would suggest have plan. Not just giving criminals more freedom. In some cities, more police officers have been wanting to retire than the cities allowed.

It seems like NYC is actually going to pick a mayor simply for his focus on crime, that shows there still may be some sanity in that city. He even admitted mass shootings are a problem with handguns in colored communities. Not often a democrat will admit that.

For someone clearly not looking for a big debate, you sure do a lot of debating. I'm not sure what part of your lengthy history is supposed to convince me of that point haha

But anyways, do you not see that the paradigm you are establishing is fucked? What you are saying is that if the police abuse trust, you need to trust them more or else crime will increase. That is fucked. It isn't the responsibility of the citizenry to trust the government, it is the responsibility of the government to earn the trust of the citizenry. A drop in trust of public institutions is something that the institutions must respond to by enacting reform. We don't solve this problem by just trusting harder. That is dumb. 

Further, you keep blaming this type of thing on "cities" or "policies", but the lack of trust largely comes from Police Misconduct, and individuals reacting to police misconduct. 



sundin13 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Re-earn trust among the left? People that have often complained and tend to make excuses for criminal behavior. I personally look at the incidents or what cities require police to do.

I'm clearly not looking for a big debate. In short, cities will get what they deserve. If you don't trust or want to rely on police, then enjoy the rising crime. We've actually seen a population decline in certain cities and states partly for this reason. I mean why tolerate high costs of living when it also means you have to deal with havoc in the streets? The best reason to live in expensive areas is to avoid the poor and/or criminals.

If cities want to demoralize police, I would suggest have plan. Not just giving criminals more freedom. In some cities, more police officers have been wanting to retire than the cities allowed.

It seems like NYC is actually going to pick a mayor simply for his focus on crime, that shows there still may be some sanity in that city. He even admitted mass shootings are a problem with handguns in colored communities. Not often a democrat will admit that.

For someone clearly not looking for a big debate, you sure do a lot of debating. I'm not sure what part of your lengthy history is supposed to convince me of that point haha

But anyways, do you not see that the paradigm you are establishing is fucked? What you are saying is that if the police abuse trust, you need to trust them more or else crime will increase. That is fucked. It isn't the responsibility of the citizenry to trust the government, it is the responsibility of the government to earn the trust of the citizenry. A drop in trust of public institutions is something that the institutions must respond to by enacting reform. We don't solve this problem by just trusting harder. That is dumb. 

Further, you keep blaming this type of thing on "cities" or "policies", but the 478

Yeah, I'm incredibly interesting so people tend to talk to me even when I give simple responses.

Police certainly wouldn't be unique at abusing power. If cities or a certain party has lost faith in them, that's fine I guess. I would simply suggest having another solution to deal with crime before essentially neutering your police. Take from that what you will.

You're preaching to the choir about government trust. That's why I don't vote democrat.

"lack of trust largely comes from Police Misconduct, and individuals reacting to police misconduct." You know a vast majority of police interactions don't end in some sort of misconduct. If some bad interactions is all it takes for a city to want less policing, well I guess we know the results. It often leads to higher crime. Hence, people losing faith in police seems to benefit criminal behavior more.

For the record, I think cameras on police officers are great. It allows us to see when they screw up/abuse power AND we also see the dregs of society they deal with. More important, I love the cameras so we can see police kill scum in POV.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

Ahhh, another cope out.  Results.  So you tell us the current results are policy and administration changes but then you cannot provide either administration or policy change.  My friend that is some very poor logic.  Oh well, I believe we have established that you have nothing.  Maybe you should go back and read that document I posted on the seasonal migrant issue but then again you and I know you will not.  As long as the results can be manipulated to suit your opinion why waste time validating it.

Like I said, different topic but please try to keep up with your claims.  I guess you forget them from one moment to the next.

So what you are saying then the cost of living which pretty much always goes up wasn't as impactful as you seem to make it out to be.  Not sure what race has to do with anything but I am wondering exactly what is this huge cost of living you keep talking about.  Is it store goods and services, gas prices non food items, energy.  I mean I pay my bills and shop on a constant basis, not really sure exactly what you are saying or what particular policy has caused whatever you are talking about.  Actually I am not even sure you know what you are talking about since most of your statements are so general, you basically can pull anything out of thin air and make claims.

"Ahhh, another cope out. Results." Its "cop out," not "cope out." And yes, results matter.

"So you tell us the current results are policy and administration changes but then you cannot provide either administration or policy change." You are too smart, I know you're well aware of policy changes. Especially the ones that have encouraged people to come to the US and has families flying all over the country waiting for their court hearing that are years away.

"So what you are saying then the cost of living which pretty much always goes up wasn't as impactful as you seem to make it out to be." I never complained about my personal living situation, per se. However, I do pay attention to the state of the country. I said quality of life on average is going down for various reasons, people just getting by are obviously gonna get hurt worse with the increased costs of living. The policies of the current administration are responsible. Big spending bills and tax increases will also increase costs of living further.

"Is it store goods and services, gas prices non food items, energy." Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Did a quick search for this... http://a.msn.com/00/en-us/AAM9CMY?ocid=st

There is also volatility given expectations of what the administrations might do or wants to do. That impacts prices.

Actually I have no clue which policy or administration change you keep talking about because you for some reason cannot either find it or it doesn't exist. Can you be specific on which policy change that encouraged people to come to the US that was not already incentivized based on their condition already.  What is so new now that was different 7 months ago.  Where is the open boarders policy you keep claiming about or the policy that says all immigrants will be able to stay in the US or just anything.

SO how is tax increases on the rich going to hurt the average person.  I believe I heard this before, It was when Obama took office and the GOP started that whole fear campaign on the Bush taxes going away and all that happiness.  

Finally you present something we can talk about.  So the article you posted shows increase in goods and services but one thing is left out of that article is why.  So I am guessing that since things has gone up based on the stats, its in direct correlation with the Biden Administration and policy or could there be some other factors.  

This article gives an explanation, I wonder if you will read it?? https://www.businessinsider.com/everything-that-could-get-more-expensive-in-2021-inflation-2021-3



Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

For someone clearly not looking for a big debate, you sure do a lot of debating. I'm not sure what part of your lengthy history is supposed to convince me of that point haha

But anyways, do you not see that the paradigm you are establishing is fucked? What you are saying is that if the police abuse trust, you need to trust them more or else crime will increase. That is fucked. It isn't the responsibility of the citizenry to trust the government, it is the responsibility of the government to earn the trust of the citizenry. A drop in trust of public institutions is something that the institutions must respond to by enacting reform. We don't solve this problem by just trusting harder. That is dumb. 

Further, you keep blaming this type of thing on "cities" or "policies", but the 478

Police certainly wouldn't be unique at abusing power. If cities or a certain party has lost faith in them, that's fine I guess. I would simply suggest having another solution to deal with crime before essentially neutering your police. Take from that what you will.

You're preaching to the choir about government trust. That's why I don't vote democrat.

"lack of trust largely comes from Police Misconduct, and individuals reacting to police misconduct." You know a vast majority of police interactions don't end in some sort of misconduct. If some bad interactions is all it takes for a city to want less policing, well I guess we know the results. It often leads to higher crime. Hence, people losing faith in police seems to benefit criminal behavior more.

You say that I'm "preaching to the choir", yet you seem to be advocating blind trust in state sanctioned violence...

Anyways, the issue isn't just some police officers committing misconduct. The way that the police system is set up through the current police union system creates a power imbalance between the police and the communities they serve. Communities have virtually no recourse to respond to police misconduct, both because the police typically investigate and protect their own, and because unions shield officers from consequences in all but the most severe instances of misconduct. 

The primary way to maintain trust in a system is through accountability. Most people understand that in every system there will be some degree of abuse, they simply expect the abuse to be met with accountability. Instead, what we repeatedly see is that the police are more interested in protecting other police than they are in accountability. We need to even this power imbalance between the police and the communities they serve in order to restore trust in these institutions, and in large part, what we are seeing from police is a backlash to any hint of accountability. 

The police have tremendous power to both fix their policing system, to repair trust in policing and to respond to community concerns, but they don't want to. This isn't evidence that the communities have gone mad, it is evidence that the police don't want to fix their system because they see it as beneficial to themselves. The police are more interested in protecting themselves from accountability than they are in serving their communities, and if that is the case, then it is hard to justify further expenditures for policing until they recognize their role in fixing it. 



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Machiavellian said:
Mr Puggsly said:

"Ahhh, another cope out. Results." Its "cop out," not "cope out." And yes, results matter.

"So you tell us the current results are policy and administration changes but then you cannot provide either administration or policy change." You are too smart, I know you're well aware of policy changes. Especially the ones that have encouraged people to come to the US and has families flying all over the country waiting for their court hearing that are years away.

"So what you are saying then the cost of living which pretty much always goes up wasn't as impactful as you seem to make it out to be." I never complained about my personal living situation, per se. However, I do pay attention to the state of the country. I said quality of life on average is going down for various reasons, people just getting by are obviously gonna get hurt worse with the increased costs of living. The policies of the current administration are responsible. Big spending bills and tax increases will also increase costs of living further.

"Is it store goods and services, gas prices non food items, energy." Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Did a quick search for this... http://a.msn.com/00/en-us/AAM9CMY?ocid=st

There is also volatility given expectations of what the administrations might do or wants to do. That impacts prices.

Actually I have no clue which policy or administration change you keep talking about because you for some reason cannot either find it or it doesn't exist. Can you be specific on which policy change that encouraged people to come to the US that was not already incentivized based on their condition already.  What is so new now that was different 7 months ago.  Where is the open boarders policy you keep claiming about or the policy that says all immigrants will be able to stay in the US or just anything.

SO how is tax increases on the rich going to hurt the average person.  I believe I heard this before, It was when Obama took office and the GOP started that whole fear campaign on the Bush taxes going away and all that happiness.  

Finally you present something we can talk about.  So the article you posted shows increase in goods and services but one thing is left out of that article is why.  So I am guessing that since things has gone up based on the stats, its in direct correlation with the Biden Administration and policy or could there be some other factors.  

This article gives an explanation, I wonder if you will read it?? https://www.businessinsider.com/everything-that-could-get-more-expensive-in-2021-inflation-2021-3

There has been no effort to encourage immigrants to come. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/03/22/key-facts-about-u-s-immigration-policies-and-bidens-proposed-changes/

You really believe taxes will only increase on the rich? I guess we can wait and see, but its evident that's not needed to increase the costs of living.

I think we agree inflation and the administration impacts prices as well. Naturally the money just has less value.



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sundin13 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Police certainly wouldn't be unique at abusing power. If cities or a certain party has lost faith in them, that's fine I guess. I would simply suggest having another solution to deal with crime before essentially neutering your police. Take from that what you will.

You're preaching to the choir about government trust. That's why I don't vote democrat.

"lack of trust largely comes from Police Misconduct, and individuals reacting to police misconduct." You know a vast majority of police interactions don't end in some sort of misconduct. If some bad interactions is all it takes for a city to want less policing, well I guess we know the results. It often leads to higher crime. Hence, people losing faith in police seems to benefit criminal behavior more.

You say that I'm "preaching to the choir", yet you seem to be advocating blind trust in state sanctioned violence...

Anyways, the issue isn't just some police officers committing misconduct. The way that the police system is set up through the current police union system creates a power imbalance between the police and the communities they serve. Communities have virtually no recourse to respond to police misconduct, both because the police typically investigate and protect their own, and because unions shield officers from consequences in all but the most severe instances of misconduct. 

The primary way to maintain trust in a system is through accountability. Most people understand that in every system there will be some degree of abuse, they simply expect the abuse to be met with accountability. Instead, what we repeatedly see is that the police are more interested in protecting other police than they are in accountability. We need to even this power imbalance between the police and the communities they serve in order to restore trust in these institutions, and in large part, what we are seeing from police is a backlash to any hint of accountability. 

The police have tremendous power to both fix their policing system, to repair trust in policing and to respond to community concerns, but they don't want to. This isn't evidence that the communities have gone mad, it is evidence that the police don't want to fix their system because they see it as beneficial to themselves. The police are more interested in protecting themselves from accountability than they are in serving their communities, and if that is the case, then it is hard to justify further expenditures for policing until they recognize their role in fixing it. 

"you seem to be advocating blind trust in state sanctioned violence..." Am I? If so I wouldn't want the cameras.

"unions shield officers from consequences in all but the most severe instances of misconduct." I would hope cameras help prevent this.

I didn't say I blindly side with police. I just notice when cities try to come up with solutions they sometimes make crime worse, especially if its a left leaning city where excuses are made for criminal behavior.

Ultimately, the cities with the biggest crime problems get what they deserve.



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Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

You say that I'm "preaching to the choir", yet you seem to be advocating blind trust in state sanctioned violence...

Anyways, the issue isn't just some police officers committing misconduct. The way that the police system is set up through the current police union system creates a power imbalance between the police and the communities they serve. Communities have virtually no recourse to respond to police misconduct, both because the police typically investigate and protect their own, and because unions shield officers from consequences in all but the most severe instances of misconduct. 

The primary way to maintain trust in a system is through accountability. Most people understand that in every system there will be some degree of abuse, they simply expect the abuse to be met with accountability. Instead, what we repeatedly see is that the police are more interested in protecting other police than they are in accountability. We need to even this power imbalance between the police and the communities they serve in order to restore trust in these institutions, and in large part, what we are seeing from police is a backlash to any hint of accountability. 

The police have tremendous power to both fix their policing system, to repair trust in policing and to respond to community concerns, but they don't want to. This isn't evidence that the communities have gone mad, it is evidence that the police don't want to fix their system because they see it as beneficial to themselves. The police are more interested in protecting themselves from accountability than they are in serving their communities, and if that is the case, then it is hard to justify further expenditures for policing until they recognize their role in fixing it. 

"you seem to be advocating blind trust in state sanctioned violence..." Am I? If so I wouldn't want the cameras.

"unions shield officers from consequences in all but the most severe instances of misconduct." I would hope cameras help prevent this.

I didn't say I blindly side with police. I just notice when cities try to come up with solutions they sometimes make crime worse, especially if its a left leaning city where excuses are made for criminal behavior.

Ultimately, the cities with the biggest crime problems get what they deserve.

Someone who trusts those who commit misdeeds in plain view is even more foolish that someone who trusts those who commits misdeeds in secret. You are encouraging trust, but I simply ask for the police to show that they deserve it. Until then, it is not the cities who deserve their problems, it is the police who deserve theirs.



sundin13 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

"you seem to be advocating blind trust in state sanctioned violence..." Am I? If so I wouldn't want the cameras.

"unions shield officers from consequences in all but the most severe instances of misconduct." I would hope cameras help prevent this.

I didn't say I blindly side with police. I just notice when cities try to come up with solutions they sometimes make crime worse, especially if its a left leaning city where excuses are made for criminal behavior.

Ultimately, the cities with the biggest crime problems get what they deserve.

Someone who trusts those who commit misdeeds in plain view is even more foolish that someone who trusts those who commits misdeeds in secret. You are encouraging trust, but I simply ask for the police to show that they deserve it. Until then, it is not the cities who deserve their problems, it is the police who deserve theirs.

"Someone who trusts those who commit misdeeds in plain view is even more foolish that someone who trusts those who commits misdeeds in secret." You treat incidents as misdeeds by all police.

"You are encouraging trust, but I simply ask for the police to show that they deserve it." My support of the cameras show I am skeptical.

"Until then, it is not the cities who deserve their problems, it is the police who deserve theirs." Again, its the people that suffer more. Police officers will just do less. We are already seeing examples. I repeat, if you wanna neuter the police I suggest having some other crime fighting solutions first. However, I like gun sales are up because people feel less safe.



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sundin13 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

"you seem to be advocating blind trust in state sanctioned violence..." Am I? If so I wouldn't want the cameras.

"unions shield officers from consequences in all but the most severe instances of misconduct." I would hope cameras help prevent this.

I didn't say I blindly side with police. I just notice when cities try to come up with solutions they sometimes make crime worse, especially if its a left leaning city where excuses are made for criminal behavior.

Ultimately, the cities with the biggest crime problems get what they deserve.

Someone who trusts those who commit misdeeds in plain view is even more foolish that someone who trusts those who commits misdeeds in secret. You are encouraging trust, but I simply ask for the police to show that they deserve it. Until then, it is not the cities who deserve their problems, it is the police who deserve theirs.

What a bigoted view on the police.  Swap out the word Hispanic for police in that sentence and see how palatable it is:

You are encouraging trust, but I simply ask for the Hispanics to show that they deserve it. Until then, it is not the cities who deserve their problems, it is the Hispanics who deserve theirs.