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Forums - Politics Discussion - The Israeli-Palestinian Crisis in mainstream media is getting exposure as ethnic cleansing

Rab said:
JWeinCom said:

No, eradication is absolutely about straight up killing. As is genocide. 

Eradication (noun)- the complete destruction of something.

Genocide- (noun)- the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

Both definitions are from the Oxford English Dictionary. If by eradication and genocide you mean displacement, then the word you should have used is probably displacement. 

Open dialogue is important, but the best way to start that is probably by accurately describing the issue.

As to the main point... If Israel's goal is to eliminate Palestinians from within their borders, they have been doing a very poor job of it since 1948 as the Arab population of Jerusalem has been rising. It is not a very slow expulsion of Israel's Arab population. At this rate it would literally take infinity years for that to happen.

To eradicate or see the destruction of something is not simply killing humans, it could be lively hoods, culture, you name it to drive them from a place 

Genocide can fall into these five categories:

  1. Killing members of the group
  2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
  3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
  4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
  5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other-mass-atrocities/what-is-genocide 

Your missing the point of the thread, hopefully not deliberately  

If you want to derail this by nit picking, Ill move on

Driving a group to another place is not eradication. Again, we have a word for that, which is displacement. Eradication is physical destruction. If you want to say eradication of culture, that's sort of metaphorical, but it can be used that way. But that's not what you're saying. You're saying Israel is trying to eradicate them, the Palestinians, which is simply not true.

The definition of genocide is incomplete, even if we take their definition. You missed the introduction.

"Genocide is defined as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group." That part is pretty key because otherwise any murder can be called genocide.

And again, it simply does not seem that Israel's actions are intended to destroy Palestinians as a group. I also don't see which of those categories this falls into. If killing or physically harming any number of the group is genocide, that's a charge that could be made against either side. The conditions in Palestine may be unwarranted and harmful, but they are not severe enough to "bring about their physical destruction". No actions have been taken either to prevent births or forcibly transfer children.

I would say whether or not genocide is occurring is not a nitpick. There's a pretty big difference. If the point of the thread is discussing Israel's actions, then an accurate description of what those actions are is pretty important. It's also directly relevant to how the US media is covering it. You are claiming that the coverage is biased, but if your perception of the situation is not accurate, then that can also be part of the problem. This should not be covered as genocide, ethnic cleansing, or one of the worst human rights atrocities the world has ever seen, because it is not any of those things. 



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Rab said:

The Palestinians were once the dominated ethnic group in the area 100+ years ago, they are now in the minority, decades of a systematic attempt at eradicating them is only now decades later being talked about in mainstream media, as a US 'friend' the Israelis have been protected from any consequence by both the Est Reps and Est Dems (Now Biden) in part using the talking points of 'false equivalency', any other country would be soundly condemned by the US long ago

  

Note: Edited for accuracy, the population % of various groups I posted originally were inaccurate, I apologise for any confusion 

It has a term: Ethnic cleansing. Imagine the response if a bunch of Israeli Jews were put in 2 small open air prisons (called Jewish Territories) and had a frightening malnutrition rate and extreme poverty. We would know what to call it without question. And it would be condemned by the supposed west as well. They stay silent however, cause the Israeli lobby and extreme dominionist Christian forces in the west have been successful in controlling the narrative and allowing governments to let Israel get away with genocide. 



Rab said:

The Palestinians were once the dominated ethnic group in the area 100+ years ago, they are now in the minority, decades of a systematic attempt at eradicating them

In 1914, there were about 525,000 Muslims living in the Palestine region. Even after the establishment of Israel, over 3 million Jews moved into the country. However could the Israeli population have gotten so large? /s

It's not as if the Palestinian population is declining either. The West Bank and Gaza shot up from about 1 million residents in 1970 to 4.1 million in 2010. Even if you include the 500k to 600k Israeli settlers in the West Bank at the time, the Palestinian population is one of the fastest growing populations in the world.

I do not like Israel. I normally do not talk about politics on VGChartz, but I need to make my opinion clear for what I'm going to say in this post: Israel is a semi-theocratic shithole whose government regularly abuses the people they rule over. They are to be condemned, and sanctioned as is appropriate. However, labeling what they do as genocidal is frankly disrespectful to victims of genocide across the world.

I think it's also disingenuous for people to ignore the fact that many of Israel's neighbors (both Palestinians and others) would do far worse to the Israeli population than what is currently being done to the Palestinians. Or do you really think those people calling for the "destruction of Israel" and to "drive Israel into the sea" plan on doing so in a way that leaves them unharmed?

It's not even as if Israel's track record is purely tyrannical! Back in 2005, they forced all of the Israeli settlers to pull out of the Gaza Strip. That isn't the same as giving independence, but that's still a big step towards improving the welfare of Palestinians living in the area. Guess how long it took Hamas to fire rockets into Israel. That's right, a few hours! Gee, I wonder why Israel is so mistrustful of Palestinians, given that Hamas won the legislative elections a few months later.

TLDR - Fuck Israel, and also Fuck anyone who think that they are the main villains in this story.



Love and tolerate.

Salnax said:

It's not even as if Israel's track record is purely tyrannical! Back in 2005, they forced all of the Israeli settlers to pull out of the Gaza Strip. That isn't the same as giving independence, but that's still a big step towards improving the welfare of Palestinians living in the area. Guess how long it took Hamas to fire rockets into Israel. That's right, a few hours! Gee, I wonder why Israel is so mistrustful of Palestinians, given that Hamas won the legislative elections a few months later.

TLDR - Fuck Israel, and also Fuck anyone who think that they are the main villains in this story.

How does mistrust in Palestinians justify Israel settlements expansion in the west bank? Literally stealing lands in broad day light. Did Israel want cookies for pulling settlers out Gaza and expand further into the west bank?

I think Islam is a big great threat to any society it infiltrates and taking a look at Islamic society is good evidence, but Israel has been the villain and their actions are way worse than any chants you hear from their neighbours. 




https://secure.avaaz.org/campaign/en/no_more_palestine/

Last edited by dark_gh0st_b0y - on 13 May 2021

don't mind my username, that was more than 10 years ago, I'm a different person now, amazing how people change ^_^

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The entire purpose of Islamic Jihad and Hamas is to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. That is the only reason those organizations exist. They deliberately fire thousands of rockets at civilians with the explicit goal of killing as many innocent people as possible, and the only reason the death toll in Israel isn't in the thousands is because they have a missile defense system that shoots down 90% of the rockets and built many bomb shelters for people to run to when rockets inevitably get through. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are so focused on killing that they don't care that hundreds of their own rockets landed in Gaza and killed dozens of their own people. But sure, being stronger automatically makes Israel the bad guy. By this logic the US was the bad guy in World War 2 and Japan the innocent victim since the US was always the stronger of the 2.



Propaganda on both sides have gone so far there are no more objective views on this matter, Both sides are taught from early childhood to distrust if not downright hate the other side. Yet when people put politics aside, they can live perfectly fine with each other, We need more of this https://www.reuters.com/article/idCAKCN1ML26P?edition-redirect=ca instead of the endless provocations from both side.

Islam is a beautiful religion, just like all the others, nothing to fear but the usual suspects abusing religion for political gains. Of course you never hear the positives mentioned, like https://en.mehrnews.com/news/157299/Remembering-Iranian-poet-Parvin-Etesami quite ahead of her time. All change starts with education, yet as long as those in power wish to remain the status quo and control the school curriculum, nothing will change.

I have no horse in this race, but flew over the area while exploring the world in FS2020. It's an open air prison for sure, with many holes underneath.
https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-the-beechcraft-bonanza/266981/141
Very interesting to see how it all relates to each other, but does not present any solutions. WW2 continues on, no end in sight.



tagging



Both sides are pretty shitty but the Israelis should know better than to piss off the other side even more by creating more settlements on their land. It's obvious that moves like these will only cause more Palestinians to radicalize or at the very least make them more supportive towards extremist groups. Completely unnecessary.



h2ohno said:

The entire purpose of Islamic Jihad and Hamas is to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. That is the only reason those organizations exist. They deliberately fire thousands of rockets at civilians with the explicit goal of killing as many innocent people as possible, and the only reason the death toll in Israel isn't in the thousands is because they have a missile defense system that shoots down 90% of the rockets and built many bomb shelters for people to run to when rockets inevitably get through. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are so focused on killing that they don't care that hundreds of their own rockets landed in Gaza and killed dozens of their own people. But sure, being stronger automatically makes Israel the bad guy. By this logic the US was the bad guy in World War 2 and Japan the innocent victim since the US was always the stronger of the 2.

First of all, both parties can simultaneously be in the wrong. Israel has done a lot which should be condemned. The same can be said for Hamas. 

Second, the use of force by the United States in Japan is very much not the easy slam dunk metaphor you think it is. There is a lot to criticize in the US' actions during WW2. 

Things rarely boil down to "Good vs Evil" and we need to stop treating complicated international disputes like children's stories.