By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - The Israeli-Palestinian Crisis in mainstream media is getting exposure as ethnic cleansing

KratosLives said:
Zarkho said:

Israel has implemented ethnic cleansing in Palestina for decades. Only now is getting expossed to the general public. It has done so both by killing and, more frecuently, by expelling palestinians from their homes and clearing palestinian lands in order to create jewish settlements. The violence we witness today started precisely when Israel forces tried to expel palestinian families from their homes in Jerusalen and use that land to create jewish settlements (As it has been doing for years now... Only that this time palestinians fought back fiercely). Zionists invaded and occupied Palestine in 1948, used terrorism to expel the colonial power there (the british), killed and displaced millions of palestinians, took their properties and homes and stablished the State of Israel. They did so backed by the resources of multimillionaires like the Rotchild and the Rockefeller families. And by the US, which needed a powerful ally in the area in order to secure its geopolitical and material interests. The palestinians have since suffered the stealth of their land and their country and the humilliation of being pointed as the "bad guy" while being the victims. Israel asphixiates the palestinian economy both by blocking Gaza and Cisjordania and by directly destroying the means of life of the palestinians (I.E., allowing israely settlers to cut thousands of olive trees wich provide palestinian families their only way of income). It's clearly an ethnic cleasing geared towards phisical elimination of palestinians from their land (and by phisical I mean no necesarily killing them, but making them dissapear from the land by terror, displazement, harassment, etc., in order to allow Israel to dominate the whole land that was once known as Palestine).

Can someopne please explain how it started? I know there was a court case dispute over settlement, but it escalated quickly. Next thing I hear is that jewish soldiers storming a mosque with tear gas and such, during their mass. If so , why did they do this?

This article gives a good explanation of the background

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/sheikh-jarrah-families-50-year-battle-for-homes-668140

In a nutshell: a property dispute, with the Nahalat Shimon company, which wants to develop the area for Jewish housing. His three-generation family and the three other homeowners are part of a larger group of 28 families, all of whom could be disposed.

How it got to this part

Prior to the 1948 war for Israel’s independence, the land was owned by Jews, and the particular plots on which the four houses sit belonged to two Jewish organizations and those rights have since been transferred to the Nahalat Shimon company.
Iskafi said his parents were part of 28 families in the neighborhood who took part in a model international project sponsored by Jordan and the United Nations Relief and Works Agency by which they gave up their refugee status in exchange for ownership of small stone homes in the neighborhood. UNRWA took their refugee card and “we didn’t receive food, health or education” benefits, Iskafi said, adding that it was a choice fraught with difficulties. “But we did it.”
Unbeknownst to the families, however, the Jordanians never registered the property. 

Five years after Israel captured the eastern part of the city in the 1967 war, unified it and applied sovereignty to it, the two Jewish organizations that owned the land sought to reclaim it. Israeli law does not allow the Palestinians to reclaim their initial pre-1948 property, and so the battle for a home has centered here on these structures.


Around the Network
EnricoPallazzo said:
Pemalite said:

This is why the world needs to get rid of religion.

Just... No. 

If you think the world will be a better place and we won't have wars you are kidding yourself. I would say it would be even worse.

Also the dispute there has nothing to do with religion, it is a territory dispute that just happens to be of two different nations with different religions. Just look at all the other territory disputes in the world.

Will we have wars? Of course. We have stupid wars all the time.
Australia had a war against Emu's (A flightless bird) and lost.

But would we have "bullshit" excuses like "The Bible said this land is ours, so it's ours?" - Absolutely not.

The issue with Religion is that it completely shuts people off and makes them believe they are right using a faith-based (I.E. Blind belief) system that they do not question.
At-least with religion obliterated people won't be able to hide behind it or use religion to justify their actions, thus they will be able to be scrutinized far more heavily.

Plus it's a known fact that the three Abrahamic religions that are based on the Bible/Torah and Quran are inherently distasteful in their "teachings" which promote things like slavery, abuse, bigotry, death and condemnation to various extents, which absolutely doesn't help the indoctrinated think rationally and logically.

Either way... At the end of the day, I have no time for religion or it's shenanigans... Heck I find it insulting when someone tells me it was "God" that helped me save a life rather than years of experience, training, investment and hard work... No. All the credit goes to some fictitious deity they believe in, instead.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

Just... No. 

If you think the world will be a better place and we won't have wars you are kidding yourself. I would say it would be even worse.

Also the dispute there has nothing to do with religion, it is a territory dispute that just happens to be of two different nations with different religions. Just look at all the other territory disputes in the world.

Will we have wars? Of course. We have stupid wars all the time.
Australia had a war against Emu's (A flightless bird) and lost.

But would we have "bullshit" excuses like "The Bible said this land is ours, so it's ours?" - Absolutely not.

The issue with Religion is that it completely shuts people off and makes them believe they are right using a faith-based (I.E. Blind belief) system that they do not question.
At-least with religion obliterated people won't be able to hide behind it or use religion to justify their actions, thus they will be able to be scrutinized far more heavily.

Plus it's a known fact that the three Abrahamic religions that are based on the Bible/Torah and Quran are inherently distasteful in their "teachings" which promote things like slavery, abuse, bigotry, death and condemnation to various extents, which absolutely doesn't help the indoctrinated think rationally and logically.

Either way... At the end of the day, I have no time for religion or it's shenanigans... Heck I find it insulting when someone tells me it was "God" that helped me save a life rather than years of experience, training, investment and hard work... No. All the credit goes to some fictitious deity they believe in, instead.

People will find new ways of having wars. There is a good chance we might have civil wars in the future based on people's politics view and even separation wars within a country. In Africa and other places people kill each other not based on their religion but based on their tribes. Just look at the first and second world wars, or all the famine caused by crazy political initiatives. People will substitute religion for something else. As for people who thank God instead of you I just feel sad, for them and for you, you can be sure they are thankful it's just that people are used to thank God for everything good that happens to them, it's not that they do not appreciate what you do. But as you said, enough of religion shenanigans.



Eagle367 said:
KratosLives said:

Can someopne please explain how it started? I know there was a court case dispute over settlement, but it escalated quickly. Next thing I hear is that jewish soldiers storming a mosque with tear gas and such, during their mass. If so , why did they do this?

The answer to why is simple. Israel is oppressive and doesn't like when palestenians protest removal from their homes. The court cases are a sham since settlers always win these cases. Settlers just decided this was their home now and took over. Palestenians protested and Israel didn't like that so they brutalized protestors and worshippers. Hamas gave them a warning and deadline to stop and Israel didn't. Hamas fires the rockers. Israel answered disproportionately, as always and this is how we got here.

Just for context, before I address your above statements, let's look at the history of Israel/Judah/The Jews in a simplified way:

They established their kingdom and were pretty powerful at first around 1,000 B.C. Then the Assyrians came and wiped a them out. Then the Babylonians came, destroyed their holy temple, and killed many Jews and forced many others to move to Babylon for forced assimilation. Multiple rounds of reconquering, re-killing, and forced re-assimilation occurred with the Babylonians and other nearby people groups. Over the coming centuries, the land was conquered and the people continued being repressed by other people groups such as the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Fatimids, Seljuk Turks, Catholic Crusaders, Egyptians, Mamelukes, Islamists, and more. Jump forward to 1517 and lasting until roughly 1917 they were conquered and ruled by the Ottoman Empire. At this point, Israel had been conquered, their population either killed off or forced into moving by at least 13 major people groups. This number does not include smaller groups, repeat offenders (Hello Babylonians!), or ones that weren't officially recorded in history (if there are any). The VAST majority of history for the Jews up to this point in 1917 had been living under another culture's rule in conditions none of us would want to live in. In 1922 the Balfour Declaration was approved by the League of Nations to restore Jews to their natural and historic homeland dating back thousands of years before they were uprooted and persecuted over, and over again by numerous nations. As Hitler's Nazis eventually started the mass persecution of Jews, the Jews began to flee towards their holy land even more. Israel becomes its own free nation in May 1948 after WW II ends. Immediately after getting it's own nation, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon started the war and invaded the region to restore Muslim control. Cease-fire was reached in 1949 with some territory swapping. In 1956 Egypt took complete control over the Suez canal, followed by Israel defeating them in a short conflict aided by British/French forces and capturing the canal. In 1967 Israel retook territory they lost after the Suez Crisis, (and then some) the Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and Golan Heights in a surprise attack in a 6 day conflict. In 1973, during the religious day of Yom Kippur, Egypt and Syria launched air strikes on Israel to try to retake Golan Heights, but after two weeks the fight ended and nothing changed. In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon to eject the Palestine Liberation Organization, which was undermining their authority in Israel. In 1987 Palestinians led an uprising in Gaza and West Bank. Hundreds of people died until the Oslo Peace Accords were struck. In 1997 the Israeli army withdrew from parts of the West Bank. In 2000 Palestinians launched suicide bombs and attacks on Israel. Fighting lasted for years until Israel announced troop withdrawal from the Gaza strip in 2005. In 2006 Israel declared war and fought Hezbollah, a militant group, but this only lasted a couple of months. In 2008, 2012, and 2014 Israel and Hamas (another militant group) had major conflicts. Now to your statements:

1. Israel has been giving up their homes and dealing with forced migration for literally thousands of years. Obviously Israel isn't perfect in how they have handled things, but anyone persecuted THAT much is going to be extremely defensive about whatever territory they have or historically had in the past.

2. I have no opinion on the court cases other than the fact that the entire world has sham court cases happening all the time. That isn't even close to a unique to Israel problem.

3. Regarding this modern conflict, the timeline is as follows, according to what I have found, regarding acts of violence:

May 3rd - Clashes around Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood sparked by Jewish settlers multi-year long attempt to take over Arab homes.

May 7th - More clashes break out as tens of thousands of Muslims decide to pack and pray in the Temple Mount (or Al-Aqsa Mosque as Muslims call it) on the last day of Ramadan. Israeli police claim Palestinians hurled stones, bottles, and fireworks at them, which caused them to respond with rubber coated bullets and tear gas (which are a lot less deadly than stones, bottles, and fireworks). Video footage shows Israeli forces storming the plaza and firing sound grenades inside the building (again, not a lethal arm).

May 8th and 9th - More clashes in East Jerusalem.

May 10th - Hundreds of Palestinians and 32 Israeli police officers are wounded in clashes on Israel's national holiday (Jerusalem Day).

------------------------ (So far, up to this point, no one has been killed by anything at least in the timelines I found online.)

May 10th evening - Hamas launches volley of rockets towards Israel (the first intentionally lethal move). Israel responds with deadly counterstrikes.

May 11th - Hamas fires rockets down on Tel Aviv after Israel destroyed a Gaza city tower that was housing Hamas leadership.

May 15th - Israel target air strike kills 10 members of a specific family. Israel then blows up another building where Hamas leadership is located (Hamas decided to occupy a media building either in the hopes that Israel wouldn't attack them for fear or blowing up reporters or with the hope that they would so Hamas could look like the victim).

May 16th - Israel blew up the home of Hamas' political leader in Gaza.

Hamas has launched over 3,000 rockets (many of which misfired and accidentally landed in Muslim areas and hurt/killed their own people). Most of the rockets coming from Israel have been to simply intercept and destroy Hamas rockets as part of their Iron Dome defense system. If anyone responded disproportionally, it was Hamas, at least so far (May 17th).



You forgot the actual origin:

3,000 to 2,500 B.C. — The city on the hills separating the fertile Mediterranean coastline of present-day Israel from the arid deserts of Arabia was first settled by pagan tribes in what was later known as the land of Canaan. The Bible says the last Canaanites to rule the city were the Jebusites.

1,000 B.C. — According to archaeological evidence, King David conquered the city. He was warned that "even the blind and the lame can ward you off," the Bible says. He named his conquest The City of David and made it the capital of his new realm.

Conquer and be conquered that's history. Look at the history of Afghanistan for example.


This is what the NY Times wrote btw

Twenty-seven days before the first rocket was fired from Gaza this week, a squad of Israeli police officers entered the Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, brushed the Palestinian attendants aside and strode across its vast limestone courtyard. Then they cut the cables to the loudspeakers that broadcast prayers to the faithful from four medieval minarets.

It was the night of April 13, the first day of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. It was also Memorial Day in Israel, which honors those who died fighting for the country. The Israeli president was delivering a speech at the Western Wall, a sacred Jewish site that lies below the mosque, and Israeli officials were concerned that the prayers would drown it out.

The incident was confirmed by six mosque officials, three of whom witnessed it; the Israeli police declined to comment. In the outside world, it barely registered.

Your version:

Israeli police claim Palestinians hurled stones, bottles, and fireworks at them, which caused them to respond with rubber coated bullets and tear gas (which are a lot less deadly than stones, bottles, and fireworks). Video footage shows Israeli forces storming the plaza and firing sound grenades inside the building (again, not a lethal arm)

That's pretty biased.

It was the trigger, just as much as George Floyd was a trigger
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/15/world/middleeast/israel-palestinian-gaza-war.html

Rubber bullets can kill just as well, there is no such thing as non lethal weapons.



Around the Network
Eagle367 said:
Pemalite said:

This is why the world needs to get rid of religion.

You're barking up the wrong tree. This is why the world needs to get rid of oppressive ethno-fascists.

You're close. But there is one step closer.

We need to rid the world of all inclinations of hatred and tyranny. To do that, we must start where we have the most control: our own free thoughts. Not at the direction of anybody, but by our own reason, we must fight evil thoughts in order to reflect a better world. Wanting to rid the world of anybody perpetuates a cycle of intolerance and hatred. We must push ourselves further and resist the temptation to hate people, as hate begets hate. If you rid the world of someone to create another world, the extent of freedom is lost along the process due to tyranny. The purest way to fight evil is to remember that controlling others only leads to more hatred and more control, and more loss of human freedom of thought. By creating a perfect world, you obtain a world of intolerance. But to be an example and influence is in truth the only noble way to go.

Allow me to explain.

The reason peoples have sought to decimate other peoples is through enmity and insecurity, to get rid of any trace of an enemy from the planet. Their thoughts, which those committing genocide want to eliminate, are a threat to their existence, or so they think. They believe that by eliminating the genes, the character that created the ennemy will disappear. If you go to the deepest level, there is little other reason to conceive genocide, other than the purest form of hatred or psychosis, but for a whole people to be psychotic it's too unlikely.

To want to rid the world of an idea is exactly the purpose of genocide and leads to more control and tyranny. Evil is a connected system.



SvennoJ said:

You forgot the actual origin:

3,000 to 2,500 B.C. — The city on the hills separating the fertile Mediterranean coastline of present-day Israel from the arid deserts of Arabia was first settled by pagan tribes in what was later known as the land of Canaan. The Bible says the last Canaanites to rule the city were the Jebusites.

1,000 B.C. — According to archaeological evidence, King David conquered the city. He was warned that "even the blind and the lame can ward you off," the Bible says. He named his conquest The City of David and made it the capital of his new realm.

Conquer and be conquered that's history. Look at the history of Afghanistan for example.


This is what the NY Times wrote btw

Twenty-seven days before the first rocket was fired from Gaza this week, a squad of Israeli police officers entered the Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, brushed the Palestinian attendants aside and strode across its vast limestone courtyard. Then they cut the cables to the loudspeakers that broadcast prayers to the faithful from four medieval minarets.

It was the night of April 13, the first day of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. It was also Memorial Day in Israel, which honors those who died fighting for the country. The Israeli president was delivering a speech at the Western Wall, a sacred Jewish site that lies below the mosque, and Israeli officials were concerned that the prayers would drown it out.

The incident was confirmed by six mosque officials, three of whom witnessed it; the Israeli police declined to comment. In the outside world, it barely registered.

Your version:

Israeli police claim Palestinians hurled stones, bottles, and fireworks at them, which caused them to respond with rubber coated bullets and tear gas (which are a lot less deadly than stones, bottles, and fireworks). Video footage shows Israeli forces storming the plaza and firing sound grenades inside the building (again, not a lethal arm)

That's pretty biased.

It was the trigger, just as much as George Floyd was a trigger
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/15/world/middleeast/israel-palestinian-gaza-war.html

Rubber bullets can kill just as well, there is no such thing as non lethal weapons.

1) Wasn't my version, it's what I read from internet. I wasn't there so I don't have a version to tell.

2) Were there any reported deaths from the rubber bullets? They are a lot less likely to kill or harm than regular bullets. It isn't even close.

3) I don't doubt them doing it was a trigger, but launching thousands of missiles at Israel (and many of them hitting their own people) isn't an appropriate response.



EnricoPallazzo said:

Exactly. Stop the violence and they keep losing land. Keep the violence and they lose land. There is nothing they can do, Israel is too powerful and rich. So the only exit I see is surrender and keep what you have, despite all humiliation. But to be honest I think Israel wouldnt even allow a palestine state anymore. This ship has sailed. Too many settlements in west bank, they will never leave.

But what happens once Muslims living in democratic countries become large enough they start to influence foreign policies? That is going to happen after all, may be not soon, but not late either. While Palestinian have been betrayed by everyone, Muslims as whole will never let this go, and once they get to power or become a large enough majority that politicians in the west start pandering to them to get their votes? Anyone's guess what that future is going to look like. 

Looking at the strongest European countries; Germany's Muslim population stands at 7%, France at 8% and this only continues to rise rapidly. Accordingly, a solution in which Israel gives major concessions to Palestinians is better for everyone especially Israel... or maybe nothing Israel will do is gonna matter in the eyes of a futuristic Islamic west.

Pemalite said:

Will we have wars? Of course. We have stupid wars all the time.
Australia had a war against Emu's (A flightless bird) and lost.

But would we have "bullshit" excuses like "The Bible said this land is ours, so it's ours?" - Absolutely not.

The issue with Religion is that it completely shuts people off and makes them believe they are right using a faith-based (I.E. Blind belief) system that they do not question.
At-least with religion obliterated people won't be able to hide behind it or use religion to justify their actions, thus they will be able to be scrutinized far more heavily.

A world without religions is not going to be a peaceful world, but it's going to be a much more peaceful one than that's riddled with religions. If I start tweeting Abrahamic religions teachings on twitter without the religion umbrella, I'd get banned, rightfully so because I would be enticing hatred and violence against majorities and minorities alike. Tweet similar tweet using direct quotes from the Bible and Quran... and you get a pass? stupid.

Last edited by LurkerJ - on 17 May 2021

Dulfite said:
SvennoJ said:

You forgot the actual origin:

3,000 to 2,500 B.C. — The city on the hills separating the fertile Mediterranean coastline of present-day Israel from the arid deserts of Arabia was first settled by pagan tribes in what was later known as the land of Canaan. The Bible says the last Canaanites to rule the city were the Jebusites.

1,000 B.C. — According to archaeological evidence, King David conquered the city. He was warned that "even the blind and the lame can ward you off," the Bible says. He named his conquest The City of David and made it the capital of his new realm.

Conquer and be conquered that's history. Look at the history of Afghanistan for example.


This is what the NY Times wrote btw

Twenty-seven days before the first rocket was fired from Gaza this week, a squad of Israeli police officers entered the Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, brushed the Palestinian attendants aside and strode across its vast limestone courtyard. Then they cut the cables to the loudspeakers that broadcast prayers to the faithful from four medieval minarets.

It was the night of April 13, the first day of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. It was also Memorial Day in Israel, which honors those who died fighting for the country. The Israeli president was delivering a speech at the Western Wall, a sacred Jewish site that lies below the mosque, and Israeli officials were concerned that the prayers would drown it out.

The incident was confirmed by six mosque officials, three of whom witnessed it; the Israeli police declined to comment. In the outside world, it barely registered.

Your version:

Israeli police claim Palestinians hurled stones, bottles, and fireworks at them, which caused them to respond with rubber coated bullets and tear gas (which are a lot less deadly than stones, bottles, and fireworks). Video footage shows Israeli forces storming the plaza and firing sound grenades inside the building (again, not a lethal arm)

That's pretty biased.

It was the trigger, just as much as George Floyd was a trigger
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/15/world/middleeast/israel-palestinian-gaza-war.html

Rubber bullets can kill just as well, there is no such thing as non lethal weapons.

1) Wasn't my version, it's what I read from internet. I wasn't there so I don't have a version to tell.

2) Were there any reported deaths from the rubber bullets? They are a lot less likely to kill or harm than regular bullets. It isn't even close.

3) I don't doubt them doing it was a trigger, but launching thousands of missiles at Israel (and many of them hitting their own people) isn't an appropriate response.

1) Ah, Ok, I didn't see a source, my bad.

2) Not that I know of in this instance, there's also permanent injury risk

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/at-close-range-police-fire-rubber-bullets-that-can-maim-or-kill-protesters
A study published in 2017 in the BMJ found that 3% of people hit by rubber bullets died of the injury. Fifteen percent of the 1,984 people studied were permanently injured by the rubber bullets, also known as “kinetic impact projectiles.”

3) It sure is not. Give fanatics a reason to be idiots and they will gladly grasp the opportunity.

The sad thing is, the world doesn't pay attention until things blow up. Only after the rockets and retaliatory air strikes we get to hear what led up to it. Same as George Floyd had to die on camera before people gave a damn.



LurkerJ said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

Exactly. Stop the violence and they keep losing land. Keep the violence and they lose land. There is nothing they can do, Israel is too powerful and rich. So the only exit I see is surrender and keep what you have, despite all humiliation. But to be honest I think Israel wouldnt even allow a palestine state anymore. This ship has sailed. Too many settlements in west bank, they will never leave.

But what happens once Muslims living in democratic countries become large enough they start to influence foreign policies? That is going to happen after all, may be not soon, but not late either. While Palestinian have been betrayed by everyone, Muslims as whole will never let this go, and once they get to power or become a large enough majority that politicians in the west start pandering to them to get their votes? Anyone's guess what that future is going to look like. 

Looking at the strongest European countries; Germany's Muslim population stands at 7%, France at 8% and this only continues to rise rapidly. Accordingly, a solution in which Israel gives major concessions to Palestinians is better for everyone especially Israel... or maybe nothing Israel will do is gonna matter in the eyes of a futuristic Islamic west.

Pemalite said:

Will we have wars? Of course. We have stupid wars all the time.
Australia had a war against Emu's (A flightless bird) and lost.

But would we have "bullshit" excuses like "The Bible said this land is ours, so it's ours?" - Absolutely not.

The issue with Religion is that it completely shuts people off and makes them believe they are right using a faith-based (I.E. Blind belief) system that they do not question.
At-least with religion obliterated people won't be able to hide behind it or use religion to justify their actions, thus they will be able to be scrutinized far more heavily.

A world without religions is not going to be a peaceful world, but it's going to be a much more peaceful one than that's riddled with religions. If I start tweeting Abrahamic religions teachings on twitter without the religion umbrella, I'd get banned, rightfully so because I would be enticing hatred and violence against majorities and minorities alike. Tweet similar tweet using direct quotes from the Bible and Quran... and you get a pass? stupid.

North Korea has outlawed religion, just saying. I guess you can call it a peaceful society, strict order.

Germany is among the least religious countries and sprouted nazism.

The Netherlands where I was born invented apartheid and slavery, not out of religion, out of greed.

See what @padib said, then read this again "But what happens once Muslims living in democratic countries become large enough they start to influence foreign policies? That is going to happen after all, may be not soon, but not late either. " That's the start.