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Forums - Politics Discussion - The Israeli-Palestinian Crisis in mainstream media is getting exposure as ethnic cleansing

Stellar_Fungk said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Really hope this is sarcasm.

If somebody legitimately thinks rewarding people based on their skills (capitalism certainly isn't perfect, but it's definitely more meritocratic than any of the alternatives, plus it's arguable that the issues with it are more based on flaws in humanity as a whole, rather than the system itself), allowing people to be free from discrimination and oppression and separating fantasies from government and the law are "threats to the world"... wow!

When corporations are the police and affect human values, when religion is removed and a vacuum gets created for a foreign religion to enter, when the definition of man and woman is removed, when families are divided, you can then bet that a society will fall. West is falling apart.

It's kind of ironic that basically all of the "negatives" you're listing are basically American things. America is also by far the most religious western country. I'd say that's purely coincidental, but still the argument that those negatives are because of a lack of religion is clearly without basis.



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Ka-pi96 said:
Stellar_Fungk said:

When corporations are the police and affect human values, when religion is removed and a vacuum gets created for a foreign religion to enter, when the definition of man and woman is removed, when families are divided, you can then bet that a society will fall. West is falling apart.

It's kind of ironic that basically all of the "negatives" you're listing are basically American things. America is also by far the most religious western country. I'd say that's purely coincidental, but still the argument that those negatives are because of a lack of religion is clearly without basis.

Sweden also. American goverment is not religious. Its not even allied with Christianity. Its allied with something else. I think state and church should be seperate. But state must take care of church and let its values be intact and don’t let agenda’s affect it.



I am a Nintendo fanatic.

Sweden is mini-america.



I am a Nintendo fanatic.

Eagle367 said:
Pemalite said:

This is why the world needs to get rid of religion.

You're barking up the wrong tree. This is why the world needs to get rid of oppressive ethno-fascists.

Pemalite said:

This is why the world needs to get rid of religion.

Corrected sentence:

This is why the world needs to get rid of oppressive ethno-fascists hiding their acts behind some apparently or vaguely religious bullshit



Stellar_Fungk said:
Ka-pi96 said:

It's kind of ironic that basically all of the "negatives" you're listing are basically American things. America is also by far the most religious western country. I'd say that's purely coincidental, but still the argument that those negatives are because of a lack of religion is clearly without basis.

Sweden also. American goverment is not religious. Its not even allied with Christianity. Its allied with something else. I think state and church should be seperate. But state must take care of church and let its values be intact and don’t let agenda’s affect it.

The American government makes school kids swear allegiance to the country, including blatant religious elements, yet isn't "even allied with christianity"? Really?

Plus, what exactly is wrong with Sweden? Firstly, literally the only Swedish company I know of is Ikea and I've never heard of them trying to police anybody or affect human values. Secondly, "when religion is removed and a vacuum gets created for a foreign religion to enter" is basically 100% bullshit. An influx of middle eastern refugees would have resulted in another religion having a larger demographic regardless of how religious the country already was or wasn't. You also seem to be implying that a new religion coming along is a bad thing, which unless you're jewish would be pretty hypocritical considering that predates both christianity and islam. Besides, christianity is already a foreign religion, it definitely isn't Sweden's native religion. It isn't even a European religion (Jerusalem is in Asia) so why is one foreign religion ok but a different one is a "threat to the world"?.

Even if it's specifically an anti-islam thing, what basis do you have for that? Because of extremists and terrorism? Where exactly do those terrorists come from? Pretty much all of them have origins in the middle east/north Africa? Funny that. Islam is in other places too, I've never heard of any islamic terrorists from south east Asia for example before. huh, maybe the terrorism has something to do with the political situation in those areas rather than the religion? There have been a fair few catholic terrorists too, I'm not sure about the statistics but I wouldn't be at all surprised if over the last 60 or so years the majority of catholic terrorists were from either Northern Ireland or the Basque Country. I don't know much about the Basque terrorism, but the Irish terrorism definitely has religious motivations though. Do you think maybe it's due to the political situation in those areas rather than due to catholicism though, given the lack of catholic terrorists elsewhere? huh, maybe it's the same for islamic terrorism after all. Religion is definitely a contributing factor, but it's neither the only one, nor exclusive to islam.

What's with the obsession with keeping families together too? That does much more harm than good. Nope, actually literally just harm. It does no good whatsoever. People should be with who they want to be with and they shouldn't be forced to stay with somebody that's abusing them just because of religion (or any reason for that matter!).



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You guys are boiling down religion into something that does only harm and causes fighting. I get you aren't religious but you choose to ignore the good religion has done. People have committed terrible acts in the name of religion but they have also committed wondrous acts in the name of religion. What this shows is that religion is so far reaching that humans with all their flaws can use it to justify good or evil. If religion didn't exist, they would use another justification. Belonging to or not belonging to a religion doesn't define how good of a human being you are. But good human beings make something beautiful and see beauty in their religion. And bad hi,an beings destroy and see horrible things in religion. Many of the scientists of Islam's golden age didn't just do research based on curiosity, they wanted to please Allah by ;earning about the beautiful universe they believed He created. Muslims fast in Ramadan partially to understand the pain of those who can't eat because they don't have food or money to buy said food. Every able Muslim is obligated to give 2.5% of his accumulated wealth in charity each year. Islam teaches people to especially take care of orphans which is why many of the orphan sponsorship programs around the world are strated by Muslims.

There is both beauty and horror in humanity and both things are expressed in any sort of ideology we believe, whether it be religion, nationality, political ideology, world view, etc. Humans have done terrible horrible things in the name of religion but they have also done beautiful things in the name of religion. Religion shouldn't cease to exist just because of the former.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Pemalite said:

This is why the world needs to get rid of religion.

again, this kind of approach is simply wrong

as I said before, the world's deadliest humanitarian tragedies of all time have been carried out by atheist - 'free thinking' regimes, namely Nazism and Communism, with ~100m deaths each

...and some of the world's greatest humanitarian efforts have been carried out by religious organizations, e.g. the Catholic church being the world's largest non-governmental provider of education and medical services

the world needs to get rid of extremism



don't mind my username, that was more than 10 years ago, I'm a different person now, amazing how people change ^_^

Eagle367 said:
Dulfite said:

Just for context, before I address your above statements, let's look at the history of Israel/Judah/The Jews in a simplified way:

They established their kingdom and were pretty powerful at first around 1,000 B.C. Then the Assyrians came and wiped a them out. Then the Babylonians came, destroyed their holy temple, and killed many Jews and forced many others to move to Babylon for forced assimilation. Multiple rounds of reconquering, re-killing, and forced re-assimilation occurred with the Babylonians and other nearby people groups. Over the coming centuries, the land was conquered and the people continued being repressed by other people groups such as the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Fatimids, Seljuk Turks, Catholic Crusaders, Egyptians, Mamelukes, Islamists, and more. Jump forward to 1517 and lasting until roughly 1917 they were conquered and ruled by the Ottoman Empire. At this point, Israel had been conquered, their population either killed off or forced into moving by at least 13 major people groups. This number does not include smaller groups, repeat offenders (Hello Babylonians!), or ones that weren't officially recorded in history (if there are any). The VAST majority of history for the Jews up to this point in 1917 had been living under another culture's rule in conditions none of us would want to live in. In 1922 the Balfour Declaration was approved by the League of Nations to restore Jews to their natural and historic homeland dating back thousands of years before they were uprooted and persecuted over, and over again by numerous nations. As Hitler's Nazis eventually started the mass persecution of Jews, the Jews began to flee towards their holy land even more. Israel becomes its own free nation in May 1948 after WW II ends. Immediately after getting it's own nation, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon started the war and invaded the region to restore Muslim control. Cease-fire was reached in 1949 with some territory swapping. In 1956 Egypt took complete control over the Suez canal, followed by Israel defeating them in a short conflict aided by British/French forces and capturing the canal. In 1967 Israel retook territory they lost after the Suez Crisis, (and then some) the Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and Golan Heights in a surprise attack in a 6 day conflict. In 1973, during the religious day of Yom Kippur, Egypt and Syria launched air strikes on Israel to try to retake Golan Heights, but after two weeks the fight ended and nothing changed. In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon to eject the Palestine Liberation Organization, which was undermining their authority in Israel. In 1987 Palestinians led an uprising in Gaza and West Bank. Hundreds of people died until the Oslo Peace Accords were struck. In 1997 the Israeli army withdrew from parts of the West Bank. In 2000 Palestinians launched suicide bombs and attacks on Israel. Fighting lasted for years until Israel announced troop withdrawal from the Gaza strip in 2005. In 2006 Israel declared war and fought Hezbollah, a militant group, but this only lasted a couple of months. In 2008, 2012, and 2014 Israel and Hamas (another militant group) had major conflicts. Now to your statements:

1. Israel has been giving up their homes and dealing with forced migration for literally thousands of years. Obviously Israel isn't perfect in how they have handled things, but anyone persecuted THAT much is going to be extremely defensive about whatever territory they have or historically had in the past.

2. I have no opinion on the court cases other than the fact that the entire world has sham court cases happening all the time. That isn't even close to a unique to Israel problem.

3. Regarding this modern conflict, the timeline is as follows, according to what I have found, regarding acts of violence:

May 3rd - Clashes around Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood sparked by Jewish settlers multi-year long attempt to take over Arab homes.

May 7th - More clashes break out as tens of thousands of Muslims decide to pack and pray in the Temple Mount (or Al-Aqsa Mosque as Muslims call it) on the last day of Ramadan. Israeli police claim Palestinians hurled stones, bottles, and fireworks at them, which caused them to respond with rubber coated bullets and tear gas (which are a lot less deadly than stones, bottles, and fireworks). Video footage shows Israeli forces storming the plaza and firing sound grenades inside the building (again, not a lethal arm).

May 8th and 9th - More clashes in East Jerusalem.

May 10th - Hundreds of Palestinians and 32 Israeli police officers are wounded in clashes on Israel's national holiday (Jerusalem Day).

------------------------ (So far, up to this point, no one has been killed by anything at least in the timelines I found online.)

May 10th evening - Hamas launches volley of rockets towards Israel (the first intentionally lethal move). Israel responds with deadly counterstrikes.

May 11th - Hamas fires rockets down on Tel Aviv after Israel destroyed a Gaza city tower that was housing Hamas leadership.

May 15th - Israel target air strike kills 10 members of a specific family. Israel then blows up another building where Hamas leadership is located (Hamas decided to occupy a media building either in the hopes that Israel wouldn't attack them for fear or blowing up reporters or with the hope that they would so Hamas could look like the victim).

May 16th - Israel blew up the home of Hamas' political leader in Gaza.

Hamas has launched over 3,000 rockets (many of which misfired and accidentally landed in Muslim areas and hurt/killed their own people). Most of the rockets coming from Israel have been to simply intercept and destroy Hamas rockets as part of their Iron Dome defense system. If anyone responded disproportionally, it was Hamas, at least so far (May 17th).

I'll stop you right there, there is no proof given by Israel that Hamas was in any of the buildings it destroyed. And sorry but Israel has responded disproportionately as it has killed more than 140 palestenians including 39 children. More palestenians are hurt and injured and more have died, and most of them have nothing to do with Hamas. Israel has destroyed the only clinic that was testing for covid and has destroyed the building that houses many media HQ and even US's Blinken has said that there is no proof there was any Hamas there.

Also remember the ones whose home that land is are the palestenians. The palestenians included Jews, Christians and Muslims and all of them are natives and the sons and daughters of the natives of the land. The Palestenian Jews joined Israel and the rest of the Jews came from all over the world hence not native. Israel is the occupier and has all the power and has the power to stop this violence. Israel attacked worshippers at Al-Aqsa mosque, the worshippers didn't attack anyone first. The protestors were outside and they are separate. The palestenians that are being thrown out of Sheikh Jarrah have lived there for decades. It's not an eviction as it is an expulsion from their own homes. And do you know tear gas is prohibited in war yet somehow is used by police to quell protestors around the world. Did you also know Israel used skunk bombs which emit horrible smells and makes it difficult to breathe. And did you also know that rubber coated steel bullets still hurt like hell and can permanently injure you like cause blindness. And Israeli police attacked protestors first in response to which they threw the rocks. You have it flipped. 

Finally this conflict started in 1948. Ancient history is irrelevant because a lot of wars and displacements have happened and they were wrong but they have been over for hundreds of not thousands of years. At this present moment, it's happening to palestenians, not Israelis and that is the truth. This ain't a conflict nor a war, it's a one sided brutalization by an occupying apartheid regime lead by an ethno-supremacist corrupt leader. What Hamas does is wrong but Hamas has ko power. Israel has ALL the power and it can stop the violence when it wants and it can do basically anything it wants with impunity in the region. Israel could;be went into Gaza and stormed into capture Hamas operatives if it actually wanted to minimize civilian casualty. Israel by international law is committing war crimes that have killed a lot of innocent human beings. If that is not disproportionate, I don't know what is.

1. The information I typed above is almost exclusively information I found online and not my opinion. Some opinions are thrown in, sure, but most of it was typed in an effort to simply find and share information found.

2. I understand more Palestinians have died than Israeli's, but how do we know which side did more of the killing? Hamas had over 300 (and counting) missiles accidentally land in Palestinian districts. Regardless, it is tragic.

3. If President Biden truly thought there was no proof Hamas was in the building, do you really think he would be bucking his own political party by declaring Israel had and continues to have a right to defend itself? Apparently Israel showed the President clear evidence they were in the building. This isn't a Republican/pro-Israel president. This is a president absolutely pushed by the left to hate Israel and yet, somehow, he concluded they were in the right (which is a pretty good indication the evidence was overwhelming). The only other alternative is that President Biden incompetently handled the situation. So either Biden is incompetent or he received overwhelming evidence that Hamas was in the media building using it as a shield. As to which one it is, none of us will probably ever know as that will be classified I assume?

4. Those non-native Palestinian Jews absolutely were natives of the land centuries ago before being forced to migrate due to persecution. And they continued to experience persecution wherever they went and still to this day do. They have not once in thousands of years (since the Babylonian captivity) experienced a time where they had land of their own that they weren't being forced out of or persecuted in. Disregarding what they have been through will only lead to a lack of empathy and understanding. No people group on this planet has been through as many hardships for as long lasting as the Jews have.

5. It is sad that those people are being forced out of their homes for decades. But it is also said Israeli's were forced out of their homes for thousands of years.

6. I don't know the context of how tear gas and rubber bullets were used or when. I only have what the internet tells me, because I wasn't there. All I know is they absolutely used less lethal methods than they could have. I'm not saying what they did was right, I'm just saying it could have been considerably worse if they wanted.

7. Hamas has no power? Hamas has a lot of power. They know the entire world is watching. They also know countries like Iran are just itching to finally have the justification to try to wipe out Israel. Hamas knows if they can start something, then play the victim while Israel does more and more, that they could finally achieve their long term goal.

8. Why would Israel send actual physical troops in to capture/kill Hamas leaders? Militant/terrorists groups are known for blowing themselves up, along with other innocent bystanders, even using detonators attached to children, to get their way. Then they celebrate these murders by calling them martyrs and act like they did nothing wrong. Why would Israel want to jeopardize the lives of not only their soldiers, but of Palestinian civilizations by sending troops in? Yes, Palestinian civilizations died in this and that is tragic, but a lot more would have died had they done a infantry invasion into that building.

9. Those ancient miseries have never been over for the Jews. They know their history. They know for thousands of years all it takes is one strong group and boom, they are displaced or treated like slaves. For thousands of years they have lived like that, and you say "history is irrelevant"? If that is truly your perspective, I'm not sure responding back and forth will be worth it because that is an extremely narrow squinting of the eyes when looking at history.



Dulfite said:
Eagle367 said:

I'll stop you right there, there is no proof given by Israel that Hamas was in any of the buildings it destroyed. And sorry but Israel has responded disproportionately as it has killed more than 140 palestenians including 39 children. More palestenians are hurt and injured and more have died, and most of them have nothing to do with Hamas. Israel has destroyed the only clinic that was testing for covid and has destroyed the building that houses many media HQ and even US's Blinken has said that there is no proof there was any Hamas there.

Also remember the ones whose home that land is are the palestenians. The palestenians included Jews, Christians and Muslims and all of them are natives and the sons and daughters of the natives of the land. The Palestenian Jews joined Israel and the rest of the Jews came from all over the world hence not native. Israel is the occupier and has all the power and has the power to stop this violence. Israel attacked worshippers at Al-Aqsa mosque, the worshippers didn't attack anyone first. The protestors were outside and they are separate. The palestenians that are being thrown out of Sheikh Jarrah have lived there for decades. It's not an eviction as it is an expulsion from their own homes. And do you know tear gas is prohibited in war yet somehow is used by police to quell protestors around the world. Did you also know Israel used skunk bombs which emit horrible smells and makes it difficult to breathe. And did you also know that rubber coated steel bullets still hurt like hell and can permanently injure you like cause blindness. And Israeli police attacked protestors first in response to which they threw the rocks. You have it flipped. 

Finally this conflict started in 1948. Ancient history is irrelevant because a lot of wars and displacements have happened and they were wrong but they have been over for hundreds of not thousands of years. At this present moment, it's happening to palestenians, not Israelis and that is the truth. This ain't a conflict nor a war, it's a one sided brutalization by an occupying apartheid regime lead by an ethno-supremacist corrupt leader. What Hamas does is wrong but Hamas has ko power. Israel has ALL the power and it can stop the violence when it wants and it can do basically anything it wants with impunity in the region. Israel could;be went into Gaza and stormed into capture Hamas operatives if it actually wanted to minimize civilian casualty. Israel by international law is committing war crimes that have killed a lot of innocent human beings. If that is not disproportionate, I don't know what is.

1. The information I typed above is almost exclusively information I found online and not my opinion. Some opinions are thrown in, sure, but most of it was typed in an effort to simply find and share information found.

2. I understand more Palestinians have died than Israeli's, but how do we know which side did more of the killing? Hamas had over 300 (and counting) missiles accidentally land in Palestinian districts. Regardless, it is tragic.

3. If President Biden truly thought there was no proof Hamas was in the building, do you really think he would be bucking his own political party by declaring Israel had and continues to have a right to defend itself? Apparently Israel showed the President clear evidence they were in the building. This isn't a Republican/pro-Israel president. This is a president absolutely pushed by the left to hate Israel and yet, somehow, he concluded they were in the right (which is a pretty good indication the evidence was overwhelming). The only other alternative is that President Biden incompetently handled the situation. So either Biden is incompetent or he received overwhelming evidence that Hamas was in the media building using it as a shield. As to which one it is, none of us will probably ever know as that will be classified I assume?

4. Those non-native Palestinian Jews absolutely were natives of the land centuries ago before being forced to migrate due to persecution. And they continued to experience persecution wherever they went and still to this day do. They have not once in thousands of years (since the Babylonian captivity) experienced a time where they had land of their own that they weren't being forced out of or persecuted in. Disregarding what they have been through will only lead to a lack of empathy and understanding. No people group on this planet has been through as many hardships for as long lasting as the Jews have.

5. It is sad that those people are being forced out of their homes for decades. But it is also said Israeli's were forced out of their homes for thousands of years.

6. I don't know the context of how tear gas and rubber bullets were used or when. I only have what the internet tells me, because I wasn't there. All I know is they absolutely used less lethal methods than they could have. I'm not saying what they did was right, I'm just saying it could have been considerably worse if they wanted.

7. Hamas has no power? Hamas has a lot of power. They know the entire world is watching. They also know countries like Iran are just itching to finally have the justification to try to wipe out Israel. Hamas knows if they can start something, then play the victim while Israel does more and more, that they could finally achieve their long term goal.

8. Why would Israel send actual physical troops in to capture/kill Hamas leaders? Militant/terrorists groups are known for blowing themselves up, along with other innocent bystanders, even using detonators attached to children, to get their way. Then they celebrate these murders by calling them martyrs and act like they did nothing wrong. Why would Israel want to jeopardize the lives of not only their soldiers, but of Palestinian civilizations by sending troops in? Yes, Palestinian civilizations died in this and that is tragic, but a lot more would have died had they done a infantry invasion into that building.

9. Those ancient miseries have never been over for the Jews. They know their history. They know for thousands of years all it takes is one strong group and boom, they are displaced or treated like slaves. For thousands of years they have lived like that, and you say "history is irrelevant"? If that is truly your perspective, I'm not sure responding back and forth will be worth it because that is an extremely narrow squinting of the eyes when looking at history.

Let's make a few things clear. We 100% know Israel has done more of the killing. The people that monitor how many have died also document how they died. Also you can't absolve yourself of blame by saying you found it online. You chose to carry the info forward so you have blame for that. 

I never said history is irrelevant, I said the specific history you are talking about is not relevant to the current issue. The issue of thousands of years is not relevant to the history since 1948. Also you don't seem to grasp the concept of conversions. The non Palestenian Jews has ancestors that converted to Judaism. Hell that is how any religion starts and grows in numbers. Many of their ancestors weren't from the land now called Israel and Palestine. And many of the Palestenian Muslims and Christians had ancestors that were Jewish and those are the natives you are talking about. All the descendants didn't stay Jewish and all of the Jews don't have their origin in ancient Judea. 

Number 8 is just supposition on your part without any relevance to reality. Israel has never tried it so we don't know what Hamas would do. And Israel would do it to prevent civilian causalities. If Israel actually gave a damn about innocents, it would send ground troops.

With regards to 9, The European Jews were suffering what you described before this Israel/Palestine mess the British created. The Europeans should have given the Jews equal rights and a home inside their own nations instead of taking over the homeland of the Palestenians

And yes, Israel has ALL the power. Israel are the occupiers, the oppressors and the de facto rulers of the entire region. They can have peace if they want and they can even destroy Hamas if they want. All they have to do is end the occupation of Palestenian land and the Hamas of today won't have a reason to exist anymore because the reason they fight is to end occupation. 

And yes president Biden will for sure just support Israel. US has done that for decades. 75% of Congress said it would unconditionally support Israel. Biden has called himself a Zionist in the pass. And it's not like US hasn't done or supported straight up oppression in the past. They aren't the good faith actors Americans like to pretend their government is. Biden doesn't support Medicare for all even though most Democrats and republicans hence most Americans support it. So it's not like Biden has never done unpopular stuff. 



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Ka-pi96 said:
SvennoJ said:

North Korea has outlawed religion, just saying. I guess you can call it a peaceful society, strict order.

That's simply not true. They've banned competing religions, that's all.

To quote a former North Korean "To my childish eyes and to those of all my friends, Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il were perfect beings, untarnished by any base human function. I was convinced, as we all were, that neither of them urinated or defecated. Who could imagine such things of gods?"

If that isn't a state religion then what is?

If you include state religion, then the 'American dream' is a religion as well. My kids get to stand for the national anthem every morning as well, even with online learning the day starts with the anthem. North Korea takes it to the extreme. However in the states the American dream is an untouchable subject as well. Plus see what happens when you burn a flag.

Anyway getting rid of religion isn't so simple, in the end, the state shall provide is as much a faith based organisation as religion. Then you have the military where blind trust in the commander in chief is drilled in. It's pretty amazing how many institutions humans create that rather not have you think for yourself.