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Forums - Politics Discussion - The Israeli-Palestinian Crisis in mainstream media is getting exposure as ethnic cleansing

Dulfite said:
Eagle367 said:

The answer to why is simple. Israel is oppressive and doesn't like when palestenians protest removal from their homes. The court cases are a sham since settlers always win these cases. Settlers just decided this was their home now and took over. Palestenians protested and Israel didn't like that so they brutalized protestors and worshippers. Hamas gave them a warning and deadline to stop and Israel didn't. Hamas fires the rockers. Israel answered disproportionately, as always and this is how we got here.

Just for context, before I address your above statements, let's look at the history of Israel/Judah/The Jews in a simplified way:

They established their kingdom and were pretty powerful at first around 1,000 B.C. Then the Assyrians came and wiped a them out. Then the Babylonians came, destroyed their holy temple, and killed many Jews and forced many others to move to Babylon for forced assimilation. Multiple rounds of reconquering, re-killing, and forced re-assimilation occurred with the Babylonians and other nearby people groups. Over the coming centuries, the land was conquered and the people continued being repressed by other people groups such as the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Fatimids, Seljuk Turks, Catholic Crusaders, Egyptians, Mamelukes, Islamists, and more. Jump forward to 1517 and lasting until roughly 1917 they were conquered and ruled by the Ottoman Empire. At this point, Israel had been conquered, their population either killed off or forced into moving by at least 13 major people groups. This number does not include smaller groups, repeat offenders (Hello Babylonians!), or ones that weren't officially recorded in history (if there are any). The VAST majority of history for the Jews up to this point in 1917 had been living under another culture's rule in conditions none of us would want to live in. In 1922 the Balfour Declaration was approved by the League of Nations to restore Jews to their natural and historic homeland dating back thousands of years before they were uprooted and persecuted over, and over again by numerous nations. As Hitler's Nazis eventually started the mass persecution of Jews, the Jews began to flee towards their holy land even more. Israel becomes its own free nation in May 1948 after WW II ends. Immediately after getting it's own nation, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon started the war and invaded the region to restore Muslim control. Cease-fire was reached in 1949 with some territory swapping. In 1956 Egypt took complete control over the Suez canal, followed by Israel defeating them in a short conflict aided by British/French forces and capturing the canal. In 1967 Israel retook territory they lost after the Suez Crisis, (and then some) the Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and Golan Heights in a surprise attack in a 6 day conflict. In 1973, during the religious day of Yom Kippur, Egypt and Syria launched air strikes on Israel to try to retake Golan Heights, but after two weeks the fight ended and nothing changed. In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon to eject the Palestine Liberation Organization, which was undermining their authority in Israel. In 1987 Palestinians led an uprising in Gaza and West Bank. Hundreds of people died until the Oslo Peace Accords were struck. In 1997 the Israeli army withdrew from parts of the West Bank. In 2000 Palestinians launched suicide bombs and attacks on Israel. Fighting lasted for years until Israel announced troop withdrawal from the Gaza strip in 2005. In 2006 Israel declared war and fought Hezbollah, a militant group, but this only lasted a couple of months. In 2008, 2012, and 2014 Israel and Hamas (another militant group) had major conflicts. Now to your statements:

1. Israel has been giving up their homes and dealing with forced migration for literally thousands of years. Obviously Israel isn't perfect in how they have handled things, but anyone persecuted THAT much is going to be extremely defensive about whatever territory they have or historically had in the past.

2. I have no opinion on the court cases other than the fact that the entire world has sham court cases happening all the time. That isn't even close to a unique to Israel problem.

3. Regarding this modern conflict, the timeline is as follows, according to what I have found, regarding acts of violence:

May 3rd - Clashes around Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood sparked by Jewish settlers multi-year long attempt to take over Arab homes.

May 7th - More clashes break out as tens of thousands of Muslims decide to pack and pray in the Temple Mount (or Al-Aqsa Mosque as Muslims call it) on the last day of Ramadan. Israeli police claim Palestinians hurled stones, bottles, and fireworks at them, which caused them to respond with rubber coated bullets and tear gas (which are a lot less deadly than stones, bottles, and fireworks). Video footage shows Israeli forces storming the plaza and firing sound grenades inside the building (again, not a lethal arm).

May 8th and 9th - More clashes in East Jerusalem.

May 10th - Hundreds of Palestinians and 32 Israeli police officers are wounded in clashes on Israel's national holiday (Jerusalem Day).

------------------------ (So far, up to this point, no one has been killed by anything at least in the timelines I found online.)

May 10th evening - Hamas launches volley of rockets towards Israel (the first intentionally lethal move). Israel responds with deadly counterstrikes.

May 11th - Hamas fires rockets down on Tel Aviv after Israel destroyed a Gaza city tower that was housing Hamas leadership.

May 15th - Israel target air strike kills 10 members of a specific family. Israel then blows up another building where Hamas leadership is located (Hamas decided to occupy a media building either in the hopes that Israel wouldn't attack them for fear or blowing up reporters or with the hope that they would so Hamas could look like the victim).

May 16th - Israel blew up the home of Hamas' political leader in Gaza.

Hamas has launched over 3,000 rockets (many of which misfired and accidentally landed in Muslim areas and hurt/killed their own people). Most of the rockets coming from Israel have been to simply intercept and destroy Hamas rockets as part of their Iron Dome defense system. If anyone responded disproportionally, it was Hamas, at least so far (May 17th).

I'll stop you right there, there is no proof given by Israel that Hamas was in any of the buildings it destroyed. And sorry but Israel has responded disproportionately as it has killed more than 140 palestenians including 39 children. More palestenians are hurt and injured and more have died, and most of them have nothing to do with Hamas. Israel has destroyed the only clinic that was testing for covid and has destroyed the building that houses many media HQ and even US's Blinken has said that there is no proof there was any Hamas there.

Also remember the ones whose home that land is are the palestenians. The palestenians included Jews, Christians and Muslims and all of them are natives and the sons and daughters of the natives of the land. The Palestenian Jews joined Israel and the rest of the Jews came from all over the world hence not native. Israel is the occupier and has all the power and has the power to stop this violence. Israel attacked worshippers at Al-Aqsa mosque, the worshippers didn't attack anyone first. The protestors were outside and they are separate. The palestenians that are being thrown out of Sheikh Jarrah have lived there for decades. It's not an eviction as it is an expulsion from their own homes. And do you know tear gas is prohibited in war yet somehow is used by police to quell protestors around the world. Did you also know Israel used skunk bombs which emit horrible smells and makes it difficult to breathe. And did you also know that rubber coated steel bullets still hurt like hell and can permanently injure you like cause blindness. And Israeli police attacked protestors first in response to which they threw the rocks. You have it flipped. 

Finally this conflict started in 1948. Ancient history is irrelevant because a lot of wars and displacements have happened and they were wrong but they have been over for hundreds of not thousands of years. At this present moment, it's happening to palestenians, not Israelis and that is the truth. This ain't a conflict nor a war, it's a one sided brutalization by an occupying apartheid regime lead by an ethno-supremacist corrupt leader. What Hamas does is wrong but Hamas has ko power. Israel has ALL the power and it can stop the violence when it wants and it can do basically anything it wants with impunity in the region. Israel could;be went into Gaza and stormed into capture Hamas operatives if it actually wanted to minimize civilian casualty. Israel by international law is committing war crimes that have killed a lot of innocent human beings. If that is not disproportionate, I don't know what is.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

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You guys can talk about religion all you want but this issue is not one religion. It's not judaism or Islam. It's a simple case of settler occupiers and the occupied. The natives suffering and the settlers living it large in the land of the natives



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Ka-pi96 said:
Rab said:

any other country would be soundly condemned by the US long ago

Gotta call bullshit on this. Where's the US condemnation of China's genocide of the Uyghurs? The Saudi genocide in Yemen? Or the Cameroonian genocide in Southern Cameroons/Ambazonia?

There have probably been plenty of others the US neglected that I don't know about too.

The biden administration was on record quite recently about the China's action towards the Uighurs. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2021/04/11/biden-secretary-of-state-condemns-chinas-acts-of-genocide-against-muslim-uyghurs/?sh=7a8a662150ca

I don't think what Saudi Arabia is doing in Yemen amounts to genocide. The Cameroon situation I can't say I'm familiar with.



LurkerJ said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

Exactly. Stop the violence and they keep losing land. Keep the violence and they lose land. There is nothing they can do, Israel is too powerful and rich. So the only exit I see is surrender and keep what you have, despite all humiliation. But to be honest I think Israel wouldnt even allow a palestine state anymore. This ship has sailed. Too many settlements in west bank, they will never leave.

But what happens once Muslims living in democratic countries become large enough they start to influence foreign policies? That is going to happen after all, may be not soon, but not late either. While Palestinian have been betrayed by everyone, Muslims as whole will never let this go, and once they get to power or become a large enough majority that politicians in the west start pandering to them to get their votes? Anyone's guess what that future is going to look like. 

Looking at the strongest European countries; Germany's Muslim population stands at 7%, France at 8% and this only continues to rise rapidly. Accordingly, a solution in which Israel gives major concessions to Palestinians is better for everyone especially Israel... or maybe nothing Israel will do is gonna matter in the eyes of a futuristic Islamic west.

Pemalite said:

Will we have wars? Of course. We have stupid wars all the time.
Australia had a war against Emu's (A flightless bird) and lost.

But would we have "bullshit" excuses like "The Bible said this land is ours, so it's ours?" - Absolutely not.

The issue with Religion is that it completely shuts people off and makes them believe they are right using a faith-based (I.E. Blind belief) system that they do not question.
At-least with religion obliterated people won't be able to hide behind it or use religion to justify their actions, thus they will be able to be scrutinized far more heavily.

A world without religions is not going to be a peaceful world, but it's going to be a much more peaceful one than that's riddled with religions. If I start tweeting Abrahamic religions teachings on twitter without the religion umbrella, I'd get banned, rightfully so because I would be enticing hatred and violence against majorities and minorities alike. Tweet similar tweet using direct quotes from the Bible and Quran... and you get a pass? stupid.

The greatest threat to west, nay the whole world is not Islam. This is a sentiment pushed by counter jihadist (an off shoot of zionism). The greatest threat is capitalism, progressivie liberalism and secularism. Islam in West is a symptom of these Three i mentioned. 



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Ka-pi96 said:
Stellar_Fungk said:

The greatest threat to west, nay the whole world is not Islam. This is a sentiment pushed by counter jihadist (an off shoot of zionism). The greatest threat is capitalism, progressivie liberalism and secularism. Islam in West is a symptom of these Three i mentioned. 

Really hope this is sarcasm.

If somebody legitimately thinks rewarding people based on their skills (capitalism certainly isn't perfect, but it's definitely more meritocratic than any of the alternatives, plus it's arguable that the issues with it are more based on flaws in humanity as a whole, rather than the system itself), allowing people to be free from discrimination and oppression and separating fantasies from government and the law are "threats to the world"... wow!

When corporations are the police and affect human values, when religion is removed and a vacuum gets created for a foreign religion to enter, when the definition of man and woman is changed, when families are divided, you can then bet that a society will fall. West is falling apart. And it deserved it. When lesson is learned, then Europe can rise again, without EU, with full sovereignity for each nation.

Last edited by Stellar_Fungk - on 18 May 2021

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Ka-pi96 said:
Stellar_Fungk said:

When corporations are the police and affect human values, when religion is removed and a vacuum gets created for a foreign religion to enter, when the definition of man and woman is removed, when families are divided, you can then bet that a society will fall. West is falling apart.

It's kind of ironic that basically all of the "negatives" you're listing are basically American things. America is also by far the most religious western country. I'd say that's purely coincidental, but still the argument that those negatives are because of a lack of religion is clearly without basis.

Sweden also. American goverment is not religious. Its not even allied with Christianity. Its allied with something else. I think state and church should be seperate. But state must take care of church and let its values be intact and don’t let agenda’s affect it.



I am a Nintendo fanatic.

Sweden is mini-america.



I am a Nintendo fanatic.

Eagle367 said:
Pemalite said:

This is why the world needs to get rid of religion.

You're barking up the wrong tree. This is why the world needs to get rid of oppressive ethno-fascists.

Pemalite said:

This is why the world needs to get rid of religion.

Corrected sentence:

This is why the world needs to get rid of oppressive ethno-fascists hiding their acts behind some apparently or vaguely religious bullshit



You guys are boiling down religion into something that does only harm and causes fighting. I get you aren't religious but you choose to ignore the good religion has done. People have committed terrible acts in the name of religion but they have also committed wondrous acts in the name of religion. What this shows is that religion is so far reaching that humans with all their flaws can use it to justify good or evil. If religion didn't exist, they would use another justification. Belonging to or not belonging to a religion doesn't define how good of a human being you are. But good human beings make something beautiful and see beauty in their religion. And bad hi,an beings destroy and see horrible things in religion. Many of the scientists of Islam's golden age didn't just do research based on curiosity, they wanted to please Allah by ;earning about the beautiful universe they believed He created. Muslims fast in Ramadan partially to understand the pain of those who can't eat because they don't have food or money to buy said food. Every able Muslim is obligated to give 2.5% of his accumulated wealth in charity each year. Islam teaches people to especially take care of orphans which is why many of the orphan sponsorship programs around the world are strated by Muslims.

There is both beauty and horror in humanity and both things are expressed in any sort of ideology we believe, whether it be religion, nationality, political ideology, world view, etc. Humans have done terrible horrible things in the name of religion but they have also done beautiful things in the name of religion. Religion shouldn't cease to exist just because of the former.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Pemalite said:

This is why the world needs to get rid of religion.

again, this kind of approach is simply wrong

as I said before, the world's deadliest humanitarian tragedies of all time have been carried out by atheist - 'free thinking' regimes, namely Nazism and Communism, with ~100m deaths each

...and some of the world's greatest humanitarian efforts have been carried out by religious organizations, e.g. the Catholic church being the world's largest non-governmental provider of education and medical services

the world needs to get rid of extremism



don't mind my username, that was more than 10 years ago, I'm a different person now, amazing how people change ^_^