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Forums - Politics Discussion - The Israeli-Palestinian Crisis in mainstream media is getting exposure as ethnic cleansing

We really need an historian for this, it's just too much reading. The land of Israel has apparently existed for ~3000 years intill they lost it. I also read somewhere that jews has been hunted down and killed for over 5000 years (someone should fact-check this), so jews might view themself as victims. Politicians almost always respond to their voters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel



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LurkerJ said:
SvennoJ said:

Fully agree with all you said, except that religion can't be a beautiful thing. The art, conservation of history and community produced by religion is one of our greatest assets as a species. Yes, it is also rife with conservatism, but that's no different from politics. Which is where religion goes wrong, used for political gains.

Teaching people religion is stupid won't stop conflicts like this. It has nothing to do with religion, religion is simply a tool to keep the conflict going and justify all the crap that's happening. Without religion people will use something else. People tend to want to belong to a group with the genetically build in superiority complex to all other groups. Zionism and Jihad are not born from religion, they're born from those using religion to justify their superiority complex. Unfortunately people don't need religion for ethnic cleansing, apartheid, slavery, war on terror etc.

Btw the best religion is in Bhutan :)
https://theculturetrip.com/asia/bhutan/articles/how-and-why-bhutan-came-to-worship-the-phallus/

I'm not religious myself but find all things produced by religion quite fascinating. Sure, it comes from archaic beliefs in (a) 'higher' power(s) to explain the unknown. Yet most people don't follow the 'teachings' by the letter and know full well they're just stories to describe history and values.


The problem with the state of Palestine is, they keep giving 'the world' reasons not to help. Giving Israel the chance to play the victim and justify all the crap they're doing. A tear down the wall moment is needed, not shoot rockets over the wall.

To start off with, you're one of the best members here so if the rest of my post sounds aggressive, it's just because I am a plain speaker and it's not personal. With that said, I agree you still can brainwash people without the need for religion, and humans will always find ways to surprise us with their stupidity. However, acknowledging that "bad things would still happen anyway" shouldn't be the gateway through which we justify the existence of religion and the monstrosities done in its names. To say that Jihad isn't born from religion is wrong, it's like saying sexism and homophobia and transphobia has nothing to do with Islam when it clearly if the literature encourages such phobias, and you can't have a rationale discussion about these issues with moderate Muslims let alone the more deeply devoted. If you run national surveys in the UK about homosexuality, and before that, we had similar issues with the Christian communities who couldn't be talked to logically about these issues. It's not a coincidence the younger generations are more accepting and rational and less connected to religion at the same time. 

And to bring this back to the topic at hand, listen to the settlers justifying settlements violating international law because god promised them a piece of land. 

Religion is used for political gains because religion is deeply political, it wants to be involved with internal and foreign policies just as much as politicians want it to be involved. Teaching kids that x religion is the truth at the age of 5 can only result in brains that can't be reasoned with on important issues when they grow older. You argue humans' are gonna be evil anyway, and I say, well, if it's bad as it is, you don't catalyse it further with fairytales sold as truths. And don't worry, you'd still get your gorey, sexist, -phobic stories in the form of novels, TV shows and video games. They're all mankind's creation after all, just like religions. 

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” 

As for Palestinian giving the world reasons not to help them, well, it's less about what they do and more about lobbying. Once they have something as big as AIPAC in the USA, maybe Obama would've had the balls to do more than issuing blanket statements about how settlements are problematic 

No worries, my post often come over 'aggressive' while not intended. And true, religion is a great tool to brainwash from a young age. North Korea does it without religion, or I guess the great leader is 'the religion'. It all comes down to tribalism. Religion is simply convenient because all the 'commands' can be deferred to something that stands above humans, and thus out of reach of criticism.

Religion is a human creation, god never promised them a piece of land, the ones who wrote the stories did. Then sold it as god's will. It all comes back to education. Changing history or selective representation works with or without religion. Religion makes it easier.

When I grew up the Palestinians had more good will, but it eroded with ongoing attacks. And indeed, the United Nations is pretty useless with the US veto'ing everything. Both sides cling to history instead of looking to the future. Not sure how to change that, but it's a good sign the conflict is getting more media attention again. For a while it seemed it was completely forgotten.




SvennoJ said:

Religion is a human creation, god never promised them a piece of land, the ones who wrote the stories did. Then sold it as god's will. It all comes back to education. Changing history or selective representation works with or without religion. Religion makes it easier.


I am not informed enough on the topic to have an opinion other than feel sorry for Palestine's humanitarian loss and isolation all this time - but I believe that if you remove the religion factor, nothing will change, both sides will still claim the land as theirs and will be willing to die defending it

tribes and governments used to conquer land long before today's religions, and the world's deadliest tragedies of all time have been carried out by atheist - 'free thinking' regimes... (Nazism and Communism)

as for religion being a 'human creation' that's just your opinion, not a fact in any way... I would say it is God inspired, but humanly interpreted, and that's where it goes terribly wrong, evil intentions sneak in to take advantage of what is meant to be used for purely good purposes, and sadly, Muhammed being a warlord and the Quran writer at the same time makes it very easy :/



don't mind my username, that was more than 10 years ago, I'm a different person now, amazing how people change ^_^

As shitty as it is, no Western country will really bother doing anything about this crisis. Iran could potentially aid the Palestines with China's support, but I doubt either would risc war with the USA. NATO and USA never touched this hornet's nest and probably never will unless foreign countries are willing to invade Israel. Thus this civil war will continue for a very long time, because peace was never an option for either party and I doubt it ever will be.



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

The only way our of the conflict is for the palestinians to accept defeat. You lost, get on with your life with what is left of your land and have your own state so you can finally live in peace. You were screwed up and cheated by a much more powerful nation, supported by much more other powerful nations. It is nice to fight for your rights but it is unwise in a war you cannot win and will lead to only more suffering and the inevitable final result which is Israel fully taking the west bank and Jerusalem. It is like Mexico trying to take California back.

Sad truth is, unless the palestinians accept defeat, they will just live in suffering and misery until they are fully assimilated and their territory taken.
Israel is a major military nation with the full support from the west, they can obliterate Gaza and the west bank anytime they want, they just dont do it because that would paint them, maybe as the bad guys for the whole world for all eternity.

Personally I also think Gaza is a problem that cannot be solved, because it will be part of the Palestinian State but it is separated physically from the West Bank, with Israeli territory in the middle. So the best approach would be to move Gaza's population to the west bank or even better, Israel could concede some of it's territory to the north to the palestinians so they could have an opening to the sea as a compensation for giving Gaza to Israel. The international community could help with the fund to move the population and building the necessary infrastructure. This way the Palestinian State would have an opening to the sea and would have it's territory consolidated.

But it is too complicated and will never happen.



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EnricoPallazzo said:

The only way our of the conflict is for the palestinians to accept defeat. You lost, get on with your life with what is left of your land and have your own state so you can finally live in peace. You were screwed up and cheated by a much more powerful nation, supported by much more other powerful nations. It is nice to fight for your rights but it is unwise in a war you cannot win and will lead to only more suffering and the inevitable final result which is Israel fully taking the west bank and Jerusalem. It is like Mexico trying to take California back.

Sad truth is, unless the palestinians accept defeat, they will just live in suffering and misery until they are fully assimilated and their territory taken.
Israel is a major military nation with the full support from the west, they can obliterate Gaza and the west bank anytime they want, they just dont do it because that would paint them, maybe as the bad guys for the whole world for all eternity.

Personally I also think Gaza is a problem that cannot be solved, because it will be part of the Palestinian State but it is separated physically from the West Bank, with Israeli territory in the middle. So the best approach would be to move Gaza's population to the west bank or even better, Israel could concede some of it's territory to the north to the palestinians so they could have an opening to the sea as a compensation for giving Gaza to Israel. The international community could help with the fund to move the population and building the necessary infrastructure. This way the Palestinian State would have an opening to the sea and would have it's territory consolidated.

But it is too complicated and will never happen.

Yep, except whether they stop or not, they keep getting screwed and lose more land.

This new wave of violence started with Israel trying to evict 4 Palestian families from East Jerusalem (Sheikh Jarrah property dispute), informally annexed by Israel, yet still part of Palestinian territories under international law. Protest ensued, and stuff escalated again.

Fascinating and very sad to see how it is portrayed by different media

https://www.israelhayom.com/2021/05/12/understanding-the-sheikh-jarrah-property-dispute/

https://www.opindia.com/2021/05/sheikh-jarrah-property-dispute-east-jerusalem-israel-al-aqsa-mosque-western-wall-palestine-jordan/

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/sheikh-jarrah-families-50-year-battle-for-homes-668140

Everyone is the victim.



EnricoPallazzo said:

The only way our of the conflict is for the palestinians to accept defeat. You lost, get on with your life with what is left of your land and have your own state so you can finally live in peace. You were screwed up and cheated by a much more powerful nation, supported by much more other powerful nations. It is nice to fight for your rights but it is unwise in a war you cannot win and will lead to only more suffering and the inevitable final result which is Israel fully taking the west bank and Jerusalem. It is like Mexico trying to take California back.

Sad truth is, unless the palestinians accept defeat, they will just live in suffering and misery until they are fully assimilated and their territory taken.
Israel is a major military nation with the full support from the west, they can obliterate Gaza and the west bank anytime they want, they just dont do it because that would paint them, maybe as the bad guys for the whole world for all eternity.

Personally I also think Gaza is a problem that cannot be solved, because it will be part of the Palestinian State but it is separated physically from the West Bank, with Israeli territory in the middle. So the best approach would be to move Gaza's population to the west bank or even better, Israel could concede some of it's territory to the north to the palestinians so they could have an opening to the sea as a compensation for giving Gaza to Israel. The international community could help with the fund to move the population and building the necessary infrastructure. This way the Palestinian State would have an opening to the sea and would have it's territory consolidated.

But it is too complicated and will never happen.

Hello Israel. We accept our ethnic cleansing. Thank you, the Palestinians. 

Imagine being this ignorant. How can you even take the rest of this text serious.



It's amazing seeing Israeli doing backflips to justify their actions, and then in the same breath talk about how progressive they are. Unreal



Trumpstyle said:

We really need an historian for this, it's just too much reading. The land of Israel has apparently existed for ~3000 years intill they lost it. I also read somewhere that jews has been hunted down and killed for over 5000 years (someone should fact-check this), so jews might view themself as victims. Politicians almost always respond to their voters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

Whether Israel existed before is pretty irrelevant to whether they have a claim for the land now. If that logic holds up, we would have to give pretty much all of America to native tribes, which I don't see happening.



OTBWY said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

The only way our of the conflict is for the palestinians to accept defeat. You lost, get on with your life with what is left of your land and have your own state so you can finally live in peace. You were screwed up and cheated by a much more powerful nation, supported by much more other powerful nations. It is nice to fight for your rights but it is unwise in a war you cannot win and will lead to only more suffering and the inevitable final result which is Israel fully taking the west bank and Jerusalem. It is like Mexico trying to take California back.

Sad truth is, unless the palestinians accept defeat, they will just live in suffering and misery until they are fully assimilated and their territory taken.
Israel is a major military nation with the full support from the west, they can obliterate Gaza and the west bank anytime they want, they just dont do it because that would paint them, maybe as the bad guys for the whole world for all eternity.

Personally I also think Gaza is a problem that cannot be solved, because it will be part of the Palestinian State but it is separated physically from the West Bank, with Israeli territory in the middle. So the best approach would be to move Gaza's population to the west bank or even better, Israel could concede some of it's territory to the north to the palestinians so they could have an opening to the sea as a compensation for giving Gaza to Israel. The international community could help with the fund to move the population and building the necessary infrastructure. This way the Palestinian State would have an opening to the sea and would have it's territory consolidated.

But it is too complicated and will never happen.

Hello Israel. We accept our ethnic cleansing. Thank you, the Palestinians. 

Imagine being this ignorant. How can you even take the rest of this text serious.

Imagine being this ignorant like you that probably didnt even read what I wrote and focused only in the first sentence.

Its a lost cause. Keep on fighting and with time there will be no territory for them, not even east Jerusalem and they will be forced to leave or die. Maybe, with luck, Israel will let them live in Gaza because Jerusalem and the West bank WILL be taken by Israel and there is nothing they can do about it. They were fucked up and the whole world dont care because everybody is afraid of speaking against jews and because they dominate western media and the narrative.

So take what you've got, which is less that the past time there was a discussion for a palestinian state, which is less than the previous one before it. Soon there will be nothing to be negociated. Or keep fighting and dying.

Their territory WILL be taken and they WILL be forced to leave at some point. Or they can accept their fate and create their own state.