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Forums - Nintendo - Other Wii U developers respond to the anonymous dev article thrashing the console

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sborwege on 13 January 2014

I don't know why we keep saying anonymous... We all know it was an EA employee, since they were so buddy buddy with Nintendo at E3 in 2012 we know they had an early Development kit.






 

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Anfebious on 13 January 2014

I wonder you know, if the anonymous story was pre-launch why did it take so long to be posted?

What was the reason of posting such an old statment nowadays considering that the development tools have improved?

It seems to me that this confirms the anonymous source to be less credible. Why post this statement now?



"I've Underestimated the Horse Power from Mario Kart 8, I'll Never Doubt the WiiU's Engine Again"

HintHRO on 13 January 2014

No logic and reason allowed here. Go home OP.



burninmylight on 13 January 2014
pokoko said:
This is an interesting thread. People seem really, really upset at the developer in the Eurogame article.

However, after reading that article, then reading these tweets, I'm a bit puzzled about what they are supposed to prove, other than that development kits improved over time (which they should).

First, the article said that Nintendo was very late with their network code, which was one of his primary complaints. We know this is true. The Twitter supporters didn't seem to contradict this, nor do they seem to be big in online gaming themselves.

Second, it was crystal clear that he was talking about the pre-launch environment. Saying, "he's wrong because it's better now," means nothing except that things have gotten better (which they should). The guy saying "we weren't there at launch" pretty much takes himself out of the discussion.

It's fine to disagree with the article but the material in the OP doesn't really disprove much at all.

Also, as far as someone writing that as an anonymous source, that should be perfectly obvious. He criticized one of the major players in the industry where he makes his career. In addition to that, it sounds like he works for a major developer/publisher, which likely discourages "insider" talk. Heck, a coworker of mine got written up recently for a work-related Facebook post. There is no mystery about why such a post would be anonymous.

I didn't post those stories in an attempt to disprove anything. I posted them as a reaction to the original story that broke. I actually agree with nearly everything you've typed. However, I am of the firm belief that any anonymous source must be taken with a truckload of salt. Anyone not willing to put his or her credibility on the line to back a choice of words can get away with saying just about anything recklessly, and is allowed to bring personal biases into the discussion that are difficult to attribute.



ninetailschris on 13 January 2014
SubiyaCryolite said:
ninetailschris said:
SubiyaCryolite said:
Renegade has released one game on Wii U. Mutant Muds, it has cutting edge graphics, is clearly pushing the system and must be powered by fairly complex code. I mean, just look at it. *sarcasm*


I feel like if I respond this I can respond to similar post.

 

I don't know if you ever took a course in computer programming or computer information. I'm currently taking a course in cyber security and computer programing is my field.

When you tell some "your making weak software that won't push the system." You don't realize how dumb that is as an argument. You do not know that, we you get the system with the manuals by the indualivual parts by the hardware manufacturer? You get the development tools to see what exactly the system can do by checking the system settings and testing it with software that isn't an actual game engine. The fact that he said he couldn't even put "hello world" which doesn't push the CPU in anyway, was testament that it was fake. C++ coding which is the standarded for all video game programming and just putting in following for hello world.

#include

  

int main() 

{
std::cout << "Hello World!n";
system("PAUSE");
return 0;
}

Isn't a problem if the system itself boots up and goes into development mode. Unless there dev kit just didn't work it's almost impossible for it to not work. Your ignorant of the facts of c++ and general programing, isn't supported by the fact of how big the team is. 


I'm a software developer working on a National EHR. I think I have a fair idea of how complex it is to create/port one type of app to a different platform or two. I also made a simple 2D game during my free time in college and I'm making a 2.5D game right now on a custom made OpenGl 3 engine. I ported my first game to android in practically a week. I wouldnt event want to port this newer one over. 

Hello World in 3D programming starts with a triangle or basic quad. Games however aren't made of that alone. You have to port over your meshes, textures, shaders and matrices. You have to determine optimum resolutions and estimate the upper limit of what you can do instancing and particle wise etc. Trying to do that without proper documentation on a proprietary graphics API must be nightmare. Its more or less shooting in the dark, and those compilation times wont help during that iterative process. Its much worse on a custom engine versus Unity or UE3.

Try doing a hello world with a basic mesh in OpenGL 3 without proper documentation and let's see how well that goes for you.

Do the same for a 2D game using something like SDL and sprites tell me which is a better benchmark for ease of use and difficulty.


OpenGL to a season veteran on any current system is possible to do hello world. I had to do project a couple of weeks ago were we had do a basic number game and didn't require any of system power to complete. I agree that if images and other stuff like physics get involved it can be problem. But them saying getting "hello world" is a simple prompt and if the developments kits are available it shouldn't be a problem. If it starts up it literally should work unless defective.

I should point out some developers even pointed out it was never that bad. Indy or not making simple "hello world" doesn't take tech expert. OpenGL 3 doesn't explain the "hello world" I could do that almost any system without reading any documentation. The "hello world" example is basic text with the words "hello world" and nothing else. It's a basic test to see if everything running properly on OpenGL, Visual Basic/Professional, Java, etc. Literally the only way it wouldn't work if the kit doesn't boot up to the development tool.



"Excuse me sir, I see you have a weapon. Why don't you put it down and let's settle this like gentlemen"  ~ max

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SubiyaCryolite on 13 January 2014
ninetailschris said:
SubiyaCryolite said:
ninetailschris said:
SubiyaCryolite said:
Renegade has released one game on Wii U. Mutant Muds, it has cutting edge graphics, is clearly pushing the system and must be powered by fairly complex code. I mean, just look at it. *sarcasm*


I feel like if I respond this I can respond to similar post.

 

I don't know if you ever took a course in computer programming or computer information. I'm currently taking a course in cyber security and computer programing is my field.

When you tell some "your making weak software that won't push the system." You don't realize how dumb that is as an argument. You do not know that, we you get the system with the manuals by the indualivual parts by the hardware manufacturer? You get the development tools to see what exactly the system can do by checking the system settings and testing it with software that isn't an actual game engine. The fact that he said he couldn't even put "hello world" which doesn't push the CPU in anyway, was testament that it was fake. C++ coding which is the standarded for all video game programming and just putting in following for hello world.

#include

  

int main() 

{
std::cout << "Hello World!n";
system("PAUSE");
return 0;
}

Isn't a problem if the system itself boots up and goes into development mode. Unless there dev kit just didn't work it's almost impossible for it to not work. Your ignorant of the facts of c++ and general programing, isn't supported by the fact of how big the team is. 


I'm a software developer working on a National EHR. I think I have a fair idea of how complex it is to create/port one type of app to a different platform or two. I also made a simple 2D game during my free time in college and I'm making a 2.5D game right now on a custom made OpenGl 3 engine. I ported my first game to android in practically a week. I wouldnt event want to port this newer one over. 

Hello World in 3D programming starts with a triangle or basic quad. Games however aren't made of that alone. You have to port over your meshes, textures, shaders and matrices. You have to determine optimum resolutions and estimate the upper limit of what you can do instancing and particle wise etc. Trying to do that without proper documentation on a proprietary graphics API must be nightmare. Its more or less shooting in the dark, and those compilation times wont help during that iterative process. Its much worse on a custom engine versus Unity or UE3.

Try doing a hello world with a basic mesh in OpenGL 3 without proper documentation and let's see how well that goes for you.

Do the same for a 2D game using something like SDL and sprites tell me which is a better benchmark for ease of use and difficulty.


OpenGL to a season veteran on any current system is possible to do hello world. I had to do project a couple of weeks ago were we had do a basic number game and didn't require any of system power to complete. I agree that if images and other stuff like physics get involved it can be problem. But them saying getting "hello world" is a simple prompt and if the developments kits are available it shouldn't be a problem. If it starts up it literally should work unless defective.

I should point out some developers even pointed out it was never that bad. Indy or not making simple "hello world" doesn't take tech expert. OpenGL 3 doesn't explain the "hello world" I could do that almost any system without reading any documentation. The "hello world" example is basic text with the words "hello world" and nothing else. It's a basic test to see if everything running properly on OpenGL, Visual Basic/Professional, Java, etc. Literally the only way it wouldn't work if the kit doesn't boot up to the development tool.


They said "... then tried to get a simple 'hello world' type game running, which proved harder than you might think". Not a literal "Hello World" on the screen. Which implies textures/physics and everything else.

This is what hello world looks like in regards to 3D programming, and this is just the raw basics. I wouldn't want this in a complex project with one week turnaround time for queries. However, that was around launch so it shouldnt be an issue now but puts the early ports into context as well as eliminates the "Lazy Dev" slogan thats so easily blurted out with no real understanding of what goes on behind the scenes.

Imagine a 3D Hello World as Assassins Creed loading screens. The basics but not nearly as complex as a full game.

http://www.opengl-tutorial.org/beginners-tutorials/tutorial-1-opening-a-window/

http://www.opengl-tutorial.org/beginners-tutorials/tutorial-2-the-first-triangle/

http://www.opengl-tutorial.org/beginners-tutorials/tutorial-3-matrices/

http://www.opengl-tutorial.org/beginners-tutorials/tutorial-4-a-colored-cube/

http://www.opengl-tutorial.org/beginners-tutorials/tutorial-6-keyboard-and-mouse/

http://www.opengl-tutorial.org/beginners-tutorials/tutorial-7-model-loading/

http://www.opengl-tutorial.org/beginners-tutorials/tutorial-8-basic-shading/



I predict that the Wii U will sell a total of 18 million units in its lifetime. 

The NX will be a 900p machine

Mnementh on 13 January 2014
ryuzaki57 said:
burninmylight said:

3DS doesn't get that many 3rd party games

You're fast getting more and more funny, even more than Galaki. Go on!



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S.T.A.G.E. on 13 January 2014
burninmylight said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
burninmylight said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:


The third party stance will not change on multiplats. Watch. Most of them are western devs and their publishers wont use lower hardware.


I'm not saying the third party stance will change, nor do I expect to. But that's not the point, and I'm surprised you of all people missed it. This is about the ease of development for the Wii U.

Third parties skipping Wii U also has little to do with "lower hardware," and more to do with the fact that western pubs struggle to achieve noteworthy sales on Nintendo home consoles. It could be two PS4s duct taped together and still wouldn't get much outside support because there aren't many third party games that would sell on it. Likewise, the PS2 was clearly the weakest console of its generation (and from everything I've heard, the hardest to program for), yet every publisher was beating down Sony's doors to get their games on it.


Actually...no. I think you missed a Bethesda figurehead speaking about how its too late to try and warm up to third parties now because the box is out. They never ever talked to them about creating the Wii U according to next gen  standards like Sony and Microsoft did. Microsoft and Sony werent even going to get Elder Scrolls online but because they contacted Bethesda ahead of time and seeked their council on the development of their consoles, Bethesda thought since the consoles are up to par it could be a next gen multiplat instead of a PC exclusive. Nintendo has a chance change their brand image but they only thought about themselves once again. Third party aren't partners to them. They don't view them that way and its pretty evident by the way that they treat them. This isn't the 90's where third parties had to bend over to Nintendo. They can ignore Nintendo if Nintendo doesn't work with them . They cant just tell someone "put it on our console..and whatever the problems are just make it work".

The PS2 was weaker than the Gamecube but could hold more space on the disc for larger games. Sony was always ahead of Nintendo ultimately on format, which is why they were always the brand of choice. Happened with the CD's, DVD's and Blu Ray. Nintendo should've known a great portion of their stable marketshare run with third party and should've made a third party friendly console. Sucks to be them because they have so much potential but are the most ignorant of the bunch.


Nope, I remember that. But I still feel like we're making two different points.

I get what you're saying: Nintendo didn't work with devs to make a more attractive console, so now the ship has sailed. My point in my previous response was that it doesn't matter because it's all about the money, not kissing up to third party devs and ease of development. I'm sticking with that, and we can agree to disagree, if we disagree.

And the GC's disc capacity was hardly a factor for the majority of games; it had amazing compression techniques. I can't recall any ports that required an extra disc or had to cut out any significant content to fit onto a mini disc (before anyone says Resident Evil 4 or Tales of Symphonia, I don't consider them ports since they were made with GC in mind and ported to PS2 later). If you want to talk about poor choices when it comes to storage on GC, let's talk about first party memory cards. Those were the real headscratchers.

 

Nintendo was terrified of piracy so for two generations straight from the N64 to the GC era kept using their own formats. Graphics came second for Sony in both generations if you hadn't noticed and they won both, but at the same time they had the format that had more space and lured in more devs. Sega had a CD as well but had bad relations with third parties. Nintendo were dicks to third parties, but Sega lost them out of sheer incompetence. Disc capacity was a factor. I didn't like memory cards in general but we needed them in those days all around after cartridges phased out so w/e. Being that the original Playstation was supposed to be Nintendos speaks volumes about what Nintendo, Sony and devs knew what it could do. Nintnedo ran to Panasonic, but panasonic hasn't made a leading format in god knows how long.



ryuzaki57 on 13 January 2014
Mnementh said:
ryuzaki57 said:
burninmylight said:

3DS doesn't get that many 3rd party games

You're fast getting more and more funny, even more than Galaki. Go on!

I shall. No western 3rd party has major games for 3DS, and as I said, Japanese 3rd parties are shifting to Vita (not to mention PS3 which represents a greater outptut still).



 

Blog -> https://ryuz4ki57inenglish.wordpress.com/

Scoobes on 13 January 2014
pokoko said:
This is an interesting thread. People seem really, really upset at the developer in the Eurogame article.

However, after reading that article, then reading these tweets, I'm a bit puzzled about what they are supposed to prove, other than that development kits improved over time (which they should).

First, the article said that Nintendo was very late with their network code, which was one of his primary complaints. We know this is true. The Twitter supporters didn't seem to contradict this, nor do they seem to be big in online gaming themselves.

Second, it was crystal clear that he was talking about the pre-launch environment. Saying, "he's wrong because it's better now," means nothing except that things have gotten better (which they should). The guy saying "we weren't there at launch" pretty much takes himself out of the discussion.

It's fine to disagree with the article but the material in the OP doesn't really disprove much at all.

Also, as far as someone writing that as an anonymous source, that should be perfectly obvious. He criticized one of the major players in the industry where he makes his career. In addition to that, it sounds like he works for a major developer/publisher, which likely discourages "insider" talk. Heck, a coworker of mine got written up recently for a work-related Facebook post. There is no mystery about why such a post would be anonymous.

Completely agree with you here.

The twitter comments and the article actually align.

The anonymous dev worked pre-launch, the dev kits have now improved as one would expect. I don't get why people have gotten this upset over an article that firstly wasn't completely negative, was a personal account of experiences with the console (and obviously pre-launch), was likely someone not particularly high-up and was in-line with a lot of things other devs have mentioned (or the hardware breakdown guys).




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