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Forums - Movies & TV - Should comedians have boundaries?

 

Should comedians have boundaries?

Yes 14 21.21%
 
No 52 78.79%
 
Total:66
Kaunisto said:

How about people lately getting cancelled for "damn, he missed" jokes?

There is an earlier datapoint not connected to current events but in the same vein:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trcLKX1Yw34

The german text at the end says: "Erkennt Gefahren, bevor sie entstehen." → "Detects dangers before they realize."

Youtube didn't delete that, so take that as a data point towards the boundaries that exist or not.

EDIT: For anyone not getting the video: the women screams "Adolf" and the location sign says "Braunau am Inn", the birthplace of Adolf Hitler.

Last edited by Mnementh - on 24 July 2024

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Kaunisto said:

How about people lately getting cancelled for "damn, he missed" jokes?
It's an obvious joke to make, half of people (even more so of us outside US) are thinking it - but 99%, I'd like to think, as a joke, most people don't actually want Trump killed.
Does it make a difference whether a common person or a professional comedian says it? With a professional, it's even more clearly a joke. But if we draw a line there, where is it; isn't a streamer/youtuber a professional comedian?

And there's a good argument why this joke shouldn't be made. Among millions of people, it only takes few, at worst even one, who doesn't think it's a joke, one who takes it as agreement and encouragement to take another shot (pun intended).

I personally think people are being treated far too roughly for saying out loud (or more often typing) what so many of us were thinking. But I also think you shouldn't say it, much less post online.

Throw my chip in the hat for people who hate how comedy is corporate/culturally nanny-stated by a few overly sensitive or dogmatic cultists who don’t understand jokes. I don’t think those boundaries should exist.


I didn’t intend to get onto a rant, but:

And, this may be a bit of an anecdotal observation mixed with conjecture (I’ll admit this), but I’d guess the biggest overlap between people wanting limits on comedy/comedians will be with the former Bernie Buster types on the left, and the current Trumpists and Evangelicals/theocrats on the right (in Western countries). There is something about the dogmatic mind that blurs the line of entertainment and reality for these groups. Perhaps they see entertainment as a political tool that can either serve or opposes dogma - like a form of propaganda - I see this mainly from the right who lose their shit whenever South Park ridicules Trump or rednecks - it’s to the point where they make the false claim “South Park used to make fun everyone, now it’s just people like me!” After a few jokes across 1 or 2 episodes.

And I’m not saying that everyone who doesn’t see the clear boundary between the world of entertainment and reality is necessarily dogmatically minded, just that dogmatic people are the majority. And it makes sense, as a feature of that dogmatic lens is the blurring of lines that most people can see - so they end up seeing the role of entertainment as either in service or opposing their belief system - ignoring the 99% of it is not about them, or interpreting it in a way that makes it about them. Dogmatically minded people have a blurred lens on reality - for example: those people who see everything as “woke” - they seem crazy to most, but in their dogmatic culture, this is their reality. Satire is probably the most maligned form because it often reflects the worst views of society - and this goes back to classical Greece (at least) until shows like South Park today.

Here’s a joke by Jimmy Carr:

”They say there’s safety in numbers… tell that to 6 million Jews.”

There will be those who consider this anti-Semitic, even though there’s nothing anti-Jewish or pro-Nazi about it. Part of the weight of the joke is that it’s about the Holocaust, the worst thing to happen in Modern Western civilization, something that many people consider “not something you should joke about”. But it’s over that line where many best comedians draw material from. Because safe humour is generally expected, and rarely funny. Unsafe humour has that extra jolt.

Jimmy Carr does clean jokes too: “I had a conversation with a West African girl in her native tongue for hours… we just clicked.”

But I don’t think that means that because clean jokes are possible, then we should stick with those and put boundaries on those that might offend people, or to satisfy those dogmatically minded people who perceive jokes on “sacred” topics to be dangerous and brainwashing. Similarly, just because we can make non-violent or non-sexual video games and films doesn’t mean the violent and sexualized video games and films shouldn’t exist too. If such boundaries of what is permitted existed, one of my favourite filmmakers of all time, Paul Verhoeven, would never have been great (or great IMO, I’m sure MANY disagree 😀).



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Jumpin said:
Kaunisto said:

How about people lately getting cancelled for "damn, he missed" jokes?
It's an obvious joke to make, half of people (even more so of us outside US) are thinking it - but 99%, I'd like to think, as a joke, most people don't actually want Trump killed.
Does it make a difference whether a common person or a professional comedian says it? With a professional, it's even more clearly a joke. But if we draw a line there, where is it; isn't a streamer/youtuber a professional comedian?

And there's a good argument why this joke shouldn't be made. Among millions of people, it only takes few, at worst even one, who doesn't think it's a joke, one who takes it as agreement and encouragement to take another shot (pun intended).

I personally think people are being treated far too roughly for saying out loud (or more often typing) what so many of us were thinking. But I also think you shouldn't say it, much less post online.

Throw my chip in the hat for people who hate how comedy is corporate/culturally nanny-stated by a few overly sensitive or dogmatic cultists who don’t understand jokes. I don’t think those boundaries should exist.


I didn’t intend to get onto a rant, but:

And, this may be a bit of an anecdotal observation mixed with conjecture (I’ll admit this), but I’d guess the biggest overlap between people wanting limits on comedy/comedians will be with the former Bernie Buster types on the left, and the current Trumpists and Evangelicals/theocrats on the right (in Western countries). There is something about the dogmatic mind that blurs the line of entertainment and reality for these groups. Perhaps they see entertainment as a political tool that can either serve or opposes dogma - like a form of propaganda - I see this mainly from the right who lose their shit whenever South Park ridicules Trump or rednecks - it’s to the point where they make the false claim “South Park used to make fun everyone, now it’s just people like me!” After a few jokes across 1 or 2 episodes.

And I’m not saying that everyone who doesn’t see the clear boundary between the world of entertainment and reality is necessarily dogmatically minded, just that dogmatic people are the majority. And it makes sense, as a feature of that dogmatic lens is the blurring of lines that most people can see - so they end up seeing the role of entertainment as either in service or opposing their belief system - ignoring the 99% of it is not about them, or interpreting it in a way that makes it about them. Dogmatically minded people have a blurred lens on reality - for example: those people who see everything as “woke” - they seem crazy to most, but in their dogmatic culture, this is their reality. Satire is probably the most maligned form because it often reflects the worst views of society - and this goes back to classical Greece (at least) until shows like South Park today.

Here’s a joke by Jimmy Carr:

”They say there’s safety in numbers… tell that to 6 million Jews.”

There will be those who consider this anti-Semitic, even though there’s nothing anti-Jewish or pro-Nazi about it. Part of the weight of the joke is that it’s about the Holocaust, the worst thing to happen in Modern Western civilization, something that many people consider “not something you should joke about”. But it’s over that line where many best comedians draw material from. Because safe humour is generally expected, and rarely funny. Unsafe humour has that extra jolt.

Jimmy Carr does clean jokes too: “I had a conversation with a West African girl in her native tongue for hours… we just clicked.”

But I don’t think that means that because clean jokes are possible, then we should stick with those and put boundaries on those that might offend people, or to satisfy those dogmatically minded people who perceive jokes on “sacred” topics to be dangerous and brainwashing. Similarly, just because we can make non-violent or non-sexual video games and films doesn’t mean the violent and sexualized video games and films shouldn’t exist too. If such boundaries of what is permitted existed, one of my favourite filmmakers of all time, Paul Verhoeven, would never have been great (or great IMO, I’m sure MANY disagree 😀).

but i'm a snowflake and i need a calm sanitized life without any means words coming my way or to any other disadvantaged group...... it makes me cry when i see such things.  How should i proceed with my life?



DarthMetalliCube said:
Renamed said:

Thank you.  I love watching my points be validated.  I am interested in knowing why the redaction?

DarthMetalliCube said:

Propaganda I equate far more to media - news outlets, editorials, etc. You can make the argument that there is propaganda in art and entertainment, but these fields have the burden of actually having to have some merit or value in order to succeed and be popular. They have to be compelling on some level or people won't pay them any mind and they'll wither away.

Then call it Trickle-Down-Propaganda. As for the compelling nature of successful propaganda, the popularity of an idea can be determined by the wording of the message, the elan of the speaker, history of the region, or association with related issues. Rarely is propaganda direct. 

I'm sure you won't discount the vast volume of vocal outrage from the right claiming that Hollywood, Disney, music, etc....is all in bed with the Democrats?  And that they repeatedly call it all propaganda? Does it only count if the right claims it so?

fair point, but again - I leave it up to the market to decide. Money talks, bs walks. Etc (and look at the waning popularity of Disney and Hollywood lately. Tells me something). I certainly wouldn't support quelling the voices of writers/actors/directors or whoever else, or shutting down or "punishing" Hollywood, Disney, or whatever other mainstream form of entertainment b/c they lean heavily on agendas I don't often agree with or I think are overdone. Like some seem to be at least indirectly advocating for when it comes to certain comiedians/comedy. I simply don't watch (or rarely do at least). This was a simple concept that the left, funny enough, used to be the biggest advocates of.

I'm fine with (actually great with) certain artists/entertainers losing popularity if they continue peddling messages that are negative/poor/toxic, etc. but it should be organic. 

Apologies for the late reply and slightly off topic direction we've moved into but I think the popularity of Hollywood lately is not out of wokeism but capitalism.



1. The industry has fundamentally shifted away from original screenplays with limited financial expectations toward sequels with a higher expectation of returns.   But people are tired of the trend of sequels and the massive dominance of comic book 'universes' has waned as the stories have mostly concluded.

2. Convenience.  Massive flat screen TVs and a plethora of streaming services with high quality in-house movies/series has drawn money away from theaters that have largely remained unchanged in their experience in decades (and ticket prices have gone up drastically).



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The boundaries is why comedy tends to be pretty lame nowadays.



Chrkeller said:

I'm so glad I didn't grow up in the generations where hurt feelings are considered a massive offense and the number 1 problem in America.

Luckily I was taught nothing is free and nobody owes me anything. Great reality checks that allowed me to make my way in the real world.

When shit gets hard and humour is needed this will all change. And it looks like the world is about to or sliding into hard mode right now, people will think less about such trivial things like offensive language and being offended. At any rate this is only an Internet problem, you think people in everyday life are censoring themselves or afraid to cross the line with humor... nah. Not even in work places, I'd imagine. But God it is something that needs to go away and not seep down to everyday life cause humour is what let's us relieve tension and we need that tension release these days. As for stand ups, I see no line within reasonn hell cross the line if you've tested and are confident in the joke at the end of the day it's the comedians job to read the room and to press on the line as much as possible. Dave Chappelle is the perfect example, a master of flirting with the line. 



LegitHyperbole said:
Chrkeller said:

I'm so glad I didn't grow up in the generations where hurt feelings are considered a massive offense and the number 1 problem in America.

Luckily I was taught nothing is free and nobody owes me anything. Great reality checks that allowed me to make my way in the real world.

When shit gets hard and humour is needed this will all change. And it looks like the world is about to or sliding into hard mode right now, people will think less about such trivial things like offensive language and being offended. At any rate this is only an Internet problem, you think people in everyday life are censoring themselves or afraid to cross the line with humor... nah. Not even in work places, I'd imagine. But God it is something that needs to go away and not seep down to everyday life cause humour is what let's us relieve tension and we need that tension release these days. As for stand ups, I see no line within reasonn hell cross the line if you've tested and are confident in the joke at the end of the day it's the comedians job to read the room and to press on the line as much as possible. Dave Chappelle is the perfect example, a master of flirting with the line. 

Do you people genuinely not understand the significance of the difference of punching up vs punching down? Not know the difference between teasing something for something they said or did vs something out of their control? the difference between comedy and mean-spirited bullying? 

It baffles me that so many people genuinely seem to believe that all behaviour is acceptable as long as you tag it as humour, that context doesn't matter, and that compassion and empathy are weakness.

True comedy doesn't have barriers, this is true. As discussed in this thread. The thing is, a lot of stuff people laugh at isn't comedy. it's bullying with a 'comedy' mask. I can't ever see someone complaining about how 'sensitive' people are now without assuming they'd call me a retard or faggot or drop hard-R n-bombs if they thought they could get away with it. People aren't too sensitive, some people are just dicks or actively trying to use the blanket of 'humour' to get away with being an ignorant dick. 

It's like people committing acts of assault then crying 'it's just a prank, bro', like that makes it okay, then bitching about how some people are so sensitive to their audience. 



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I still maintain, don't like something, don't support it. There is no need to whine and cry.

I don't like fox news, so I don't watch it. Pretty simple. I don't have that hive mind mentality where everyone has to think the way I do.

And Legit has a point. The younger generation doesn't know what real problems are. My grandparents went through the great recession and my grandfather was at D-day.... but oh no, somebody today said something mean, we need to rally cry!



Runa216 said:
LegitHyperbole said:

When shit gets hard and humour is needed this will all change. And it looks like the world is about to or sliding into hard mode right now, people will think less about such trivial things like offensive language and being offended. At any rate this is only an Internet problem, you think people in everyday life are censoring themselves or afraid to cross the line with humor... nah. Not even in work places, I'd imagine. But God it is something that needs to go away and not seep down to everyday life cause humour is what let's us relieve tension and we need that tension release these days. As for stand ups, I see no line within reasonn hell cross the line if you've tested and are confident in the joke at the end of the day it's the comedians job to read the room and to press on the line as much as possible. Dave Chappelle is the perfect example, a master of flirting with the line. 

Do you people genuinely not understand the significance of the difference of punching up vs punching down? Not know the difference between teasing something for something they said or did vs something out of their control? the difference between comedy and mean-spirited bullying? 

It baffles me that so many people genuinely seem to believe that all behaviour is acceptable as long as you tag it as humour, that context doesn't matter, and that compassion and empathy are weakness.

True comedy doesn't have barriers, this is true. As discussed in this thread. The thing is, a lot of stuff people laugh at isn't comedy. it's bullying with a 'comedy' mask. I can't ever see someone complaining about how 'sensitive' people are now without assuming they'd call me a retard or faggot or drop hard-R n-bombs if they thought they could get away with it. People aren't too sensitive, some people are just dicks or actively trying to use the blanket of 'humour' to get away with being an ignorant dick. 

It's like people committing acts of assault then crying 'it's just a prank, bro', like that makes it okay, then bitching about how some people are so sensitive to their audience. 

I was very badly bullied as a child so I do know but... we aren't kids anymore and if ya haven't grown thicker skin by now something has gone wrong. I'd hardly think there are any kids on this forum. Bullying with comedy mask my arse, if you go into a venue to watch a comedian you should know what you're in for. Also, it's only the person the joke is targeted at that has the right to offense. If someone makes a joke around the word retard, you don't have the right to be offended on my behalf cause I'm autistic. I don't have the right to your offense either but you know what right we both have, to leave the venue and not support the comedian. That goes for minorities, you don't have the right to their offense and if they don't seem bothered you shouldn't. Comedians get canceled all the time, the guy from Seinfeld went too far as one example and that's how it should work but to control every comedian preemptively is a mark of fascism.

As for people outside of comedy clubs, it's a prank bro is not what we're talking about. Everyone agrees that behaviour is fucking stupid. That's strawmanning the issue of normal human interaction and joking behaviour between people, you'd be shocked at how people joke with eachother. Social norms are different everywhere and everyone has to read to room and the person but I don't want to see people's humour with each other go away no matter how anti scoial it may seem. You have the right to tell the person you don't like that kind of behaviour but to ask them to halt all joking around you is entitled and childish. To bring it up in a work place or other setting and have it policed is a self centered, dick move and to try and control it on a societal level is simply a mark of fascism.

Hey, if you want to be a fascist, more power to ya. I for one do not.