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Forums - Movies & TV - Should comedians have boundaries?

 

Should comedians have boundaries?

Yes 12 19.67%
 
No 49 80.33%
 
Total:61
the-pi-guy said:
KLXVER said:

I dont really get the punching down bit. So are you saying Dave Chappelle is above trans people, so he shouldnt make jokes about them? or is it that he is famous and trans people are not, so he can only joke about people who are more or just as famous as him? 

Never really understood the punching down thing.

The problem isn't Dave Chappelle making fun of people less famous than him. 

The problem isn't "Dave Chappelle is above trans people".

He's a rich man hurting people for their struggles that he doesn't deal with or sympathize with. That's punching down.

Chapelle is mostly known for jokes about poor black people, while he himself is rich and famous. Why are his black jokes not punching down?



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Mnementh said:
Runa216 said:

Chapelle was fine before the trans jokes started. Now that's all I know him for, and that's bad 'comedy' punching down. 

I watched the "offensive" show Sticks&Stones and the the LGBTQ-jokes were only a small part. If that is all you know him for now, then this is because you only consume his jokes out of context from the terminally online twitter bubble.

His last special The Dreamer was pretty bad though and I did feel like he only talked about trans people to get views. It worked though.



Doctor_MG said:
the-pi-guy said:

You've completely misunderstood what I'm saying. 

Comedians can make jokes about the Holocaust, about gay people, about trans people, about black people, etc. 

I have even posted a bit about black churches in this very thread. The key is, are they actually telling jokes, or are they spreading thinly veiled hate speech. 

Let's say a comedian is spreading thinly veiled hate speech. What would you suggest be done?

Ignoring instead of Streisanding them. I can't understand how all the young folks make the exactly same errors as boomers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

If the comedian bordered a line for most, then they will suffer in obscurity, except you shine a light on them by calling them out on big platforms. If they start to gain attention despite you ignoring them, then they may say something resonating with a lot of people. Which means you are probably the outlier.



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curl-6 said:

Nobody is going to hear a comedian make a joke then go out and commit a hate crime because of it. And even if they did, that's not the comedian's fault; jokes and actions are separate things and actions are the responsibility of the person who chooses to do them.

The notion that  comedy causes real world harm is the same flawed logic used by anti-gaming folks back in the 90s when they argued that games like Doom were gonna make Millennials grow up to be a generation of sociopathic serial killers.

I remember the documentation Bowling for Columbine making fun of the idea that some random stuff influenced these killings. And at some point we believed we had defeated these Boomers who believed media would make us bad people. But we didn't realize with the influence of Twitter and TikTok a new generation of Boomers was born that starts with this media bullshit all from the beginning.



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the-pi-guy said:
Chrkeller said:

Maybe I'm just smarter than most.  I wouldn't go to a comedy show with a notebook so jot down life lessons.  

I didn't realize people couldn't disconnect reality from make believe.  

By default it makes no sense for someone to take a comedian seriously....  

DarthMetalliCube said:

You're conflating art and entertainment with real life. At the end of the day, this is still nothing more than the modern version of a moral panic (which almost always turn out to be false and misguided hysteria, whether the satanic panic of the 80s, PMRC of the 90s, the Jack Thompson video game violence scare of the 2000s, or the current hyper sensitivity against comedy). It makes the argument that art/entertainment = dangerous in some real life, tangible form. I strongly disagree with that, and I always will. 

How do you people think propaganda works? 

By this logic, there shouldn't be a such thing as propaganda whatsoever. Yet history, psychology, etc clearly show otherwise.  

Propaganda works with power and influence. You are daily under the influence of propaganda, take alone the media coverage of the Israel-Palestinian war. You hear the narrative pushed by powerful people (politician) and influental people (people owning big media with long reach) about the war. That happens in many regards, like capitalism is without alternative and so on.

But a standup comedians influence is dependant on their popularity. So ignoring stand up comedians is the best way to rob them of their influence and not giving them the power of propaganda.



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KLXVER said:
Mnementh said:

I watched the "offensive" show Sticks&Stones and the the LGBTQ-jokes were only a small part. If that is all you know him for now, then this is because you only consume his jokes out of context from the terminally online twitter bubble.

His last special The Dreamer was pretty bad though and I did feel like he only talked about trans people to get views. It worked though.

Possible. I have yet to watch it and might dislike it. But the outrage happened on Stick&Stones and if there was any outrage on Dreamer I have missed it. Maybe it didn't get as much attention - which by the way is the best way to fight offensive stuff.



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shavenferret said:
Renamed said:

Did you forget the part where they attempted to blame another group for their actions?  And they did it in the cover of night.  Yeah, that's extremely weak of spirit and an attempt to reduce the risk.

Strength of spirit is owning your action and/or standing up to take blame.  While fictional in source, does the phrase, "I am Spartacus" ring a bell? 

Edited:

"You must be a communist that hates America. Look, go eat some apple pie and watch baseball, you'll set yourself right soon enough."

Thank you.  I love watching my points be validated.  I am interested in knowing why the redaction?

DarthMetalliCube said:

Propaganda I equate far more to media - news outlets, editorials, etc. You can make the argument that there is propaganda in art and entertainment, but these fields have the burden of actually having to have some merit or value in order to succeed and be popular. They have to be compelling on some level or people won't pay them any mind and they'll wither away.

Then call it Trickle-Down-Propaganda. As for the compelling nature of successful propaganda, the popularity of an idea can be determined by the wording of the message, the elan of the speaker, history of the region, or association with related issues. Rarely is propaganda direct. 

I'm sure you won't discount the vast volume of vocal outrage from the right claiming that Hollywood, Disney, music, etc....is all in bed with the Democrats?  And that they repeatedly call it all propaganda? Does it only count if the right claims it so?



Mnementh said:
curl-6 said:

Nobody is going to hear a comedian make a joke then go out and commit a hate crime because of it. And even if they did, that's not the comedian's fault; jokes and actions are separate things and actions are the responsibility of the person who chooses to do them.

The notion that  comedy causes real world harm is the same flawed logic used by anti-gaming folks back in the 90s when they argued that games like Doom were gonna make Millennials grow up to be a generation of sociopathic serial killers.

I remember the documentation Bowling for Columbine making fun of the idea that some random stuff influenced these killings. And at some point we believed we had defeated these Boomers who believed media would make us bad people. But we didn't realize with the influence of Twitter and TikTok a new generation of Boomers was born that starts with this media bullshit all from the beginning.

Pretty much.

The current left hegemony, whether you want to call it wokeness, neo-marxism, the alt left, whatever, is so regressive in so many ways, bringing back a lot of horrible trends I'd hoped we as a society had moved past like authoritarianism, bullying, reducing people to their skin colour or their sexuality, trying to censor and silence anything they don't agree with, etc.



Renamed said:
shavenferret said:

Edited:

"You must be a communist that hates America. Look, go eat some apple pie and watch baseball, you'll set yourself right soon enough."

Thank you.  I love watching my points be validated.  I am interested in knowing why the redaction?

DarthMetalliCube said:

Propaganda I equate far more to media - news outlets, editorials, etc. You can make the argument that there is propaganda in art and entertainment, but these fields have the burden of actually having to have some merit or value in order to succeed and be popular. They have to be compelling on some level or people won't pay them any mind and they'll wither away.

Then call it Trickle-Down-Propaganda. As for the compelling nature of successful propaganda, the popularity of an idea can be determined by the wording of the message, the elan of the speaker, history of the region, or association with related issues. Rarely is propaganda direct. 

I'm sure you won't discount the vast volume of vocal outrage from the right claiming that Hollywood, Disney, music, etc....is all in bed with the Democrats?  And that they repeatedly call it all propaganda? Does it only count if the right claims it so?

fair point, but again - I leave it up to the market to decide. Money talks, bs walks. Etc (and look at the waning popularity of Disney and Hollywood lately. Tells me something). I certainly wouldn't support quelling the voices of writers/actors/directors or whoever else, or shutting down or "punishing" Hollywood, Disney, or whatever other mainstream form of entertainment b/c they lean heavily on agendas I don't often agree with or I think are overdone. Like some seem to be at least indirectly advocating for when it comes to certain comiedians/comedy. I simply don't watch (or rarely do at least). This was a simple concept that the left, funny enough, used to be the biggest advocates of.

I'm fine with (actually great with) certain artists/entertainers losing popularity if they continue peddling messages that are negative/poor/toxic, etc. but it should be organic. 

Last edited by DarthMetalliCube - on 18 May 2024

 

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Renamed said:
shavenferret said:

Edited:

"You must be a communist that hates America. Look, go eat some apple pie and watch baseball, you'll set yourself right soon enough."

Thank you.  I love watching my points be validated.  I am interested in knowing why the redaction?

DarthMetalliCube said:

Propaganda I equate far more to media - news outlets, editorials, etc. You can make the argument that there is propaganda in art and entertainment, but these fields have the burden of actually having to have some merit or value in order to succeed and be popular. They have to be compelling on some level or people won't pay them any mind and they'll wither away.

Then call it Trickle-Down-Propaganda. As for the compelling nature of successful propaganda, the popularity of an idea can be determined by the wording of the message, the elan of the speaker, history of the region, or association with related issues. Rarely is propaganda direct. 

I'm sure you won't discount the vast volume of vocal outrage from the right claiming that Hollywood, Disney, music, etc....is all in bed with the Democrats?  And that they repeatedly call it all propaganda? Does it only count if the right claims it so?

Exactly.  Speech should not be censored because it is a massive can of worms.  



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