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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - PlayStation Preservation Team is What Nintendo Should Be Doing Too

I think we should hold until details are released before celebrating to much or expecting others to take note.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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Chrkeller said:
Mnementh said:

Games are an art form and we usually care about preserving art. Museums exist with that goal. Now, not everyone cares about old art, but overall it is an important part of our cultural history.

We don't typically preserve every drawing ever made in art...  just the influential pieces....  I agree that preserving key influential games is cool, but as somebody else stated 95% of old games are meh and don't need to be treated as Starry Night.  And the influential games are well preserved and have been released many times over on many systems.  

Some very influential games have been lost over time, especially those from the 1980's and early 1990's. Also many MMOs are lost forever now, even some who ran for quite some time and were pretty influential.



Chrkeller said:
Mnementh said:

Games are an art form and we usually care about preserving art. Museums exist with that goal. Now, not everyone cares about old art, but overall it is an important part of our cultural history.

We don't typically preserve every drawing ever made in art...  just the influential pieces....  I agree that preserving key influential games is cool, but as somebody else stated 95% of old games are meh and don't need to be treated as Starry Night.  And the influential games are well preserved and have been released many times over on many systems.  

What is influental and what not is often subjective. And even then, some clearly influental games are lost.

See for instance Neverwinter Nights from AOL, the first *graphical* online multiplayer RPG (there were already text-based MUDs).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(1991_video_game)

Influental also isn't always successful, it is much more likely that successful games are preserved.

And also for cultural historical reasons games that aren't influental are still interesting. Take the Satellaview games. Obviously that wasn't influental, as no one did something like that after. But it is an important chapter of gaming history, just because it is so unique.



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Bofferbrauer2 said:
Chrkeller said:

We don't typically preserve every drawing ever made in art...  just the influential pieces....  I agree that preserving key influential games is cool, but as somebody else stated 95% of old games are meh and don't need to be treated as Starry Night.  And the influential games are well preserved and have been released many times over on many systems.  

Some very influential games have been lost over time, especially those from the 1980's and early 1990's. Also many MMOs are lost forever now, even some who ran for quite some time and were pretty influential.

We are on a digital era. The only way to lose a game nowadays is if the publisher absolutely wants to destroy it. Every person who have downloaded a game is preserving it. 

That's said, some games are impossible to be fully preserved. How will we play League of Legends once the servers are shut down? The answer is, we simply won't and there is absolutely no reason to freak out about it 

Think about other forms of arts that degrade with time, like architecture. Older buildings, they degrade with time and is simply impossible to keep every single one of them identical to what they used to be. What is reasonable is to select a few of them and... I don't know the word in English, in Portuguese is "tombar" which means acknowledge the historical, artistic and cultural relevance of some piece or property and turn them into a public property, which gave the state responsibility over its maintenance  

In cultural areas of cities some buildings frontage can't be remodeled because of laws. 

Thats exactly what should happen with games. We need to select a few of them and turn them public property when recognized their historical and cultural value

This, however, is so far ahead in future that is totally pointless to even discuss right now. It's something to think about in maybe 100 years,  not now. Games that are likely to become public property are the ones that are popular enough to have several copies and backups distributed, preserving those will be a non issue. That's not counting the possibility of some IPs being to successful that still no reason for them to become public, have any of early Disney movies disappeared so far? 



Doctor_MG said:
CaptainExplosion said:

This is why we need to preserve old games, and why Nintendo should have a game preservation team just like PlayStation!!

You're mixing up preservation with distribution. Nintendo preserves their games. That's how they were able to release an almost 30 year old incomplete game by the name of starfox 2. 

Nintendo is probably one of the best at preserving their old code, actually. They just don't distribute that code to the masses. In fact, rumor has it, they have the source code and/or a final ROM for every game that has ever released on any of their consoles.

Regarding your last paragraph.. This probably explains why Nintendo's rereleases, remasters and remakes are so good. All devs should do this imo *Cough-SquareEnix-cough* https://screenrant.com/final-fantasy-source-code-lost-no-leaks-square/



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IcaroRibeiro said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

Some very influential games have been lost over time, especially those from the 1980's and early 1990's. Also many MMOs are lost forever now, even some who ran for quite some time and were pretty influential.

We are on a digital era. The only way to lose a game nowadays is if the publisher absolutely wants to destroy it. Every person who have downloaded a game is preserving it. 

That's said, some games are impossible to be fully preserved. How will we play League of Legends once the servers are shut down? The answer is, we simply won't and there is absolutely no reason to freak out about it 

Think about other forms of arts that degrade with time, like architecture. Older buildings, they degrade with time and is simply impossible to keep every single one of them identical to what they used to be. What is reasonable is to select a few of them and... I don't know the word in English, in Portuguese is "tombar" which means acknowledge the historical, artistic and cultural relevance of some piece or property and turn them into a public property, which gave the state responsibility over its maintenance  

In cultural areas of cities some buildings frontage can't be remodeled because of laws. 

Thats exactly what should happen with games. We need to select a few of them and turn them public property when recognized their historical and cultural value

This, however, is so far ahead in future that is totally pointless to even discuss right now. It's something to think about in maybe 100 years,  not now. Games that are likely to become public property are the ones that are popular enough to have several copies and backups distributed, preserving those will be a non issue. That's not counting the possibility of some IPs being to successful that still no reason for them to become public, have any of early Disney movies disappeared so far? 

They don't need to want to destroy a game, it suffices that they don't care.

Here are 2 lists of lost video games. If you look closely, there are many that were made after 2000, and even quite a few after 2010.

https://lostmediawiki.com/Category:Lost_video_games

https://lostmediaarchive.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Lost_Video_Games

This is why video game preservation is important, every year there are more that could be added to the list. And there will potentially be an onslaught of them when Apple makes it's threat true that it will remove every single game that hasn't been updated in 2 years.

Another question is, that even if the game still exists, can it still be run? Try running a 16-bit windows game (or one with a 16-bit installer) on a modern 64-bit OS and hardware for instance. It's impossible to do without virtualization or emulation (if a 3D accelerator (GPU) is needed, then only emulation is a possibility). Some 80's arcade games were so matched to the tech of the arcade hardware that they still run like shit or not at all on high-end PCs to this day despite technically being billion times faster.

If there hadn't be a large abandonware community in the late 90's through today, then many pre-internet games would have been lost forever by now. And their master tapes (which allow to access and edit the code - if the engine still exists, that is) are for the most part really lost, so you can't update them to run on modern hardware without trickery.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

We are on a digital era. The only way to lose a game nowadays is if the publisher absolutely wants to destroy it. Every person who have downloaded a game is preserving it. 

That's said, some games are impossible to be fully preserved. How will we play League of Legends once the servers are shut down? The answer is, we simply won't and there is absolutely no reason to freak out about it 

Think about other forms of arts that degrade with time, like architecture. Older buildings, they degrade with time and is simply impossible to keep every single one of them identical to what they used to be. What is reasonable is to select a few of them and... I don't know the word in English, in Portuguese is "tombar" which means acknowledge the historical, artistic and cultural relevance of some piece or property and turn them into a public property, which gave the state responsibility over its maintenance  

In cultural areas of cities some buildings frontage can't be remodeled because of laws. 

Thats exactly what should happen with games. We need to select a few of them and turn them public property when recognized their historical and cultural value

This, however, is so far ahead in future that is totally pointless to even discuss right now. It's something to think about in maybe 100 years,  not now. Games that are likely to become public property are the ones that are popular enough to have several copies and backups distributed, preserving those will be a non issue. That's not counting the possibility of some IPs being to successful that still no reason for them to become public, have any of early Disney movies disappeared so far? 

They don't need to want to destroy a game, it suffices that they don't care.

Here are 2 lists of lost video games. If you look closely, there are many that were made after 2000, and even quite a few after 2010.

https://lostmediawiki.com/Category:Lost_video_games

https://lostmediaarchive.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Lost_Video_Games

This is why video game preservation is important, every year there are more that could be added to the list. And there will potentially be an onslaught of them when Apple makes it's threat true that it will remove every single game that hasn't been updated in 2 years.

Another question is, that even if the game still exists, can it still be run? Try running a 16-bit windows game (or one with a 16-bit installer) on a modern 64-bit OS and hardware for instance. It's impossible to do without virtualization or emulation (if a 3D accelerator (GPU) is needed, then only emulation is a possibility). Some 80's arcade games were so matched to the tech of the arcade hardware that they still run like shit or not at all on high-end PCs to this day despite technically being billion times faster.

If there hadn't be a large abandonware community in the late 90's through today, then many pre-internet games would have been lost forever by now. And their master tapes (which allow to access and edit the code - if the engine still exists, that is) are for the most part really lost, so you can't update them to run on modern hardware without trickery.

And this is not an issue. Like... at all. Do you think every painting ever made in humanity History is preserved in some way? Any obscure movie ever recorded in academic spaces or even domestic productions? Every piece of poetry ever written? 

Why pursue to build such insane archive with every piece of gaming ever commercialy released? Do you have any idea of how many games are made every day for tech students and released on Mobile stores? Do you need to preserve them as well?

There are pieces of gaming that have historical and cultural importance, some have significance because they introduce some design concepts that can be used in future 

But the point is we aren't losing knowledge of how to make games. Knowledge is preserved, technology skills are preserved, modern games inherit the concepts of older relevant games and that's all. We don't need to keep the bits of everything. I understand the concern with older relevant rooms from the 70's and the 80's that might be relevant and are being lost, got it. But modern games? They definitely don't need any kind of expensive protection 

Indeed this game preservation nonsense is nothing but a buzzword for companies to profit over older games. It's to create a perceived monetary value of importance based on historical value which is somewhat how other piece of arts get more value with time. Is something Nintendo realized during seventh gen and other companies ignored for so long: Console gamers are slowly approaching the 40-50 years old demographic 

What does it mean? Well, let's say boomers have a tendency to think older = better to pretty much everything, now it's gen X who is approaching the second half of their lifes and they are starting to repeating Boomers behavior, their preferences for games are no exception

To exploit the feelings of nostalgia and remind their golden years of childhood they need to ensure past games can still run and play alright  that's why they are finally developing those emulation teams to make older games playable again, with some fees and costs of course 

Off-topic. Anecdotal, but I find very interesting using this forum because people here are, in average, older than most of my gaming circle (who are basically people from 16 to 24). You guys help me to give perspective people from my generation and younger than me absolutely don't share. People of my age would never, ever, think not playing an online game ever again to be a concern. 

Last edited by IcaroRibeiro - on 29 April 2022

Bofferbrauer2 said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

We are on a digital era. The only way to lose a game nowadays is if the publisher absolutely wants to destroy it. Every person who have downloaded a game is preserving it. 

That's said, some games are impossible to be fully preserved. How will we play League of Legends once the servers are shut down? The answer is, we simply won't and there is absolutely no reason to freak out about it 

Think about other forms of arts that degrade with time, like architecture. Older buildings, they degrade with time and is simply impossible to keep every single one of them identical to what they used to be. What is reasonable is to select a few of them and... I don't know the word in English, in Portuguese is "tombar" which means acknowledge the historical, artistic and cultural relevance of some piece or property and turn them into a public property, which gave the state responsibility over its maintenance  

In cultural areas of cities some buildings frontage can't be remodeled because of laws. 

Thats exactly what should happen with games. We need to select a few of them and turn them public property when recognized their historical and cultural value

This, however, is so far ahead in future that is totally pointless to even discuss right now. It's something to think about in maybe 100 years,  not now. Games that are likely to become public property are the ones that are popular enough to have several copies and backups distributed, preserving those will be a non issue. That's not counting the possibility of some IPs being to successful that still no reason for them to become public, have any of early Disney movies disappeared so far? 

They don't need to want to destroy a game, it suffices that they don't care.

Here are 2 lists of lost video games. If you look closely, there are many that were made after 2000, and even quite a few after 2010.

https://lostmediawiki.com/Category:Lost_video_games

https://lostmediaarchive.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Lost_Video_Games

This is why video game preservation is important, every year there are more that could be added to the list. And there will potentially be an onslaught of them when Apple makes it's threat true that it will remove every single game that hasn't been updated in 2 years.

Another question is, that even if the game still exists, can it still be run? Try running a 16-bit windows game (or one with a 16-bit installer) on a modern 64-bit OS and hardware for instance. It's impossible to do without virtualization or emulation (if a 3D accelerator (GPU) is needed, then only emulation is a possibility). Some 80's arcade games were so matched to the tech of the arcade hardware that they still run like shit or not at all on high-end PCs to this day despite technically being billion times faster.

If there hadn't be a large abandonware community in the late 90's through today, then many pre-internet games would have been lost forever by now. And their master tapes (which allow to access and edit the code - if the engine still exists, that is) are for the most part really lost, so you can't update them to run on modern hardware without trickery.

Most of the games on these lists had been cancelled and were never released, are tech demos or even only certain versions of not lost games like a PC port that is mentioned.

Last edited by Kakadu18 - on 29 April 2022

hinch said:
Doctor_MG said:

You're mixing up preservation with distribution. Nintendo preserves their games. That's how they were able to release an almost 30 year old incomplete game by the name of starfox 2. 

Nintendo is probably one of the best at preserving their old code, actually. They just don't distribute that code to the masses. In fact, rumor has it, they have the source code and/or a final ROM for every game that has ever released on any of their consoles.

Regarding your last paragraph.. This probably explains why Nintendo's rereleases, remasters and remakes are so good. All devs should do this imo *Cough-SquareEnix-cough* https://screenrant.com/final-fantasy-source-code-lost-no-leaks-square/

I guess there would be little dispute in saying Nintendo values their IPs and earn more from them than any other company plus until recently I would say most company would be closer to SE than to Ninty on original assets preservation.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Bofferbrauer2 said:
Chrkeller said:

Game preservation seems like such an odd thing to care about.

You have no idea.

An entire batch of historians is freaking out whenever a game is becoming unplayable for whatever reason and the code isn't properly preserved. They are fighting for years to force Video game companies to safeguard the code for future generations, with little avail so far.

They are also behind the archive.org DOS games page where you can download and play old DOS games in your browser in an effort to preserve DOS games:

https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos_games

While I’m a strong advocate for copyright laws and very much against game piracy, and the rights of creators and product owners to have the ultimate say on what happens with their product, how much people should pay, and how people should own it, etc. I’m also a strong advocate for formal abandonware legislation, processes, and platforms.

If I were to be an idealist, this would be the ideal situation: if a company has no more plans with a game, then it becomes public property. A publishing company has no right to destroy the code and assets of a game without the consent of the creators - including artists, designers, engineers, voice actors, composers, producers, and even developmental quality assurance - since they too have an impact on the creation. The publishers might still get to destroy the games, but creators will at least be able to negotiate a payoff. As well, if assets are “accidentally” lost, then they should have great reason (like a number of buildings randomly exploding) since it’s very difficult for the company version repositories and all the assets across all of the computers to be accidentally lost - since there are revisions, assets, and builds stored across multiple locations.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.