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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - PlayStation Preservation Team is What Nintendo Should Be Doing Too

IcaroRibeiro said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

Some very influential games have been lost over time, especially those from the 1980's and early 1990's. Also many MMOs are lost forever now, even some who ran for quite some time and were pretty influential.

We are on a digital era. The only way to lose a game nowadays is if the publisher absolutely wants to destroy it. Every person who have downloaded a game is preserving it. 

That's said, some games are impossible to be fully preserved. How will we play League of Legends once the servers are shut down? The answer is, we simply won't and there is absolutely no reason to freak out about it 

Think about other forms of arts that degrade with time, like architecture. Older buildings, they degrade with time and is simply impossible to keep every single one of them identical to what they used to be. What is reasonable is to select a few of them and... I don't know the word in English, in Portuguese is "tombar" which means acknowledge the historical, artistic and cultural relevance of some piece or property and turn them into a public property, which gave the state responsibility over its maintenance  

In cultural areas of cities some buildings frontage can't be remodeled because of laws. 

Thats exactly what should happen with games. We need to select a few of them and turn them public property when recognized their historical and cultural value

This, however, is so far ahead in future that is totally pointless to even discuss right now. It's something to think about in maybe 100 years,  not now. Games that are likely to become public property are the ones that are popular enough to have several copies and backups distributed, preserving those will be a non issue. That's not counting the possibility of some IPs being to successful that still no reason for them to become public, have any of early Disney movies disappeared so far? 

They don't need to want to destroy a game, it suffices that they don't care.

Here are 2 lists of lost video games. If you look closely, there are many that were made after 2000, and even quite a few after 2010.

https://lostmediawiki.com/Category:Lost_video_games

https://lostmediaarchive.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Lost_Video_Games

This is why video game preservation is important, every year there are more that could be added to the list. And there will potentially be an onslaught of them when Apple makes it's threat true that it will remove every single game that hasn't been updated in 2 years.

Another question is, that even if the game still exists, can it still be run? Try running a 16-bit windows game (or one with a 16-bit installer) on a modern 64-bit OS and hardware for instance. It's impossible to do without virtualization or emulation (if a 3D accelerator (GPU) is needed, then only emulation is a possibility). Some 80's arcade games were so matched to the tech of the arcade hardware that they still run like shit or not at all on high-end PCs to this day despite technically being billion times faster.

If there hadn't be a large abandonware community in the late 90's through today, then many pre-internet games would have been lost forever by now. And their master tapes (which allow to access and edit the code - if the engine still exists, that is) are for the most part really lost, so you can't update them to run on modern hardware without trickery.



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Bofferbrauer2 said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

We are on a digital era. The only way to lose a game nowadays is if the publisher absolutely wants to destroy it. Every person who have downloaded a game is preserving it. 

That's said, some games are impossible to be fully preserved. How will we play League of Legends once the servers are shut down? The answer is, we simply won't and there is absolutely no reason to freak out about it 

Think about other forms of arts that degrade with time, like architecture. Older buildings, they degrade with time and is simply impossible to keep every single one of them identical to what they used to be. What is reasonable is to select a few of them and... I don't know the word in English, in Portuguese is "tombar" which means acknowledge the historical, artistic and cultural relevance of some piece or property and turn them into a public property, which gave the state responsibility over its maintenance  

In cultural areas of cities some buildings frontage can't be remodeled because of laws. 

Thats exactly what should happen with games. We need to select a few of them and turn them public property when recognized their historical and cultural value

This, however, is so far ahead in future that is totally pointless to even discuss right now. It's something to think about in maybe 100 years,  not now. Games that are likely to become public property are the ones that are popular enough to have several copies and backups distributed, preserving those will be a non issue. That's not counting the possibility of some IPs being to successful that still no reason for them to become public, have any of early Disney movies disappeared so far? 

They don't need to want to destroy a game, it suffices that they don't care.

Here are 2 lists of lost video games. If you look closely, there are many that were made after 2000, and even quite a few after 2010.

https://lostmediawiki.com/Category:Lost_video_games

https://lostmediaarchive.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Lost_Video_Games

This is why video game preservation is important, every year there are more that could be added to the list. And there will potentially be an onslaught of them when Apple makes it's threat true that it will remove every single game that hasn't been updated in 2 years.

Another question is, that even if the game still exists, can it still be run? Try running a 16-bit windows game (or one with a 16-bit installer) on a modern 64-bit OS and hardware for instance. It's impossible to do without virtualization or emulation (if a 3D accelerator (GPU) is needed, then only emulation is a possibility). Some 80's arcade games were so matched to the tech of the arcade hardware that they still run like shit or not at all on high-end PCs to this day despite technically being billion times faster.

If there hadn't be a large abandonware community in the late 90's through today, then many pre-internet games would have been lost forever by now. And their master tapes (which allow to access and edit the code - if the engine still exists, that is) are for the most part really lost, so you can't update them to run on modern hardware without trickery.

And this is not an issue. Like... at all. Do you think every painting ever made in humanity History is preserved in some way? Any obscure movie ever recorded in academic spaces or even domestic productions? Every piece of poetry ever written? 

Why pursue to build such insane archive with every piece of gaming ever commercialy released? Do you have any idea of how many games are made every day for tech students and released on Mobile stores? Do you need to preserve them as well?

There are pieces of gaming that have historical and cultural importance, some have significance because they introduce some design concepts that can be used in future 

But the point is we aren't losing knowledge of how to make games. Knowledge is preserved, technology skills are preserved, modern games inherit the concepts of older relevant games and that's all. We don't need to keep the bits of everything. I understand the concern with older relevant rooms from the 70's and the 80's that might be relevant and are being lost, got it. But modern games? They definitely don't need any kind of expensive protection 

Indeed this game preservation nonsense is nothing but a buzzword for companies to profit over older games. It's to create a perceived monetary value of importance based on historical value which is somewhat how other piece of arts get more value with time. Is something Nintendo realized during seventh gen and other companies ignored for so long: Console gamers are slowly approaching the 40-50 years old demographic 

What does it mean? Well, let's say boomers have a tendency to think older = better to pretty much everything, now it's gen X who is approaching the second half of their lifes and they are starting to repeating Boomers behavior, their preferences for games are no exception

To exploit the feelings of nostalgia and remind their golden years of childhood they need to ensure past games can still run and play alright  that's why they are finally developing those emulation teams to make older games playable again, with some fees and costs of course 

Off-topic. Anecdotal, but I find very interesting using this forum because people here are, in average, older than most of my gaming circle (who are basically people from 16 to 24). You guys help me to give perspective people from my generation and younger than me absolutely don't share. People of my age would never, ever, think not playing an online game ever again to be a concern. 

Last edited by IcaroRibeiro - on 29 April 2022

Bofferbrauer2 said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

We are on a digital era. The only way to lose a game nowadays is if the publisher absolutely wants to destroy it. Every person who have downloaded a game is preserving it. 

That's said, some games are impossible to be fully preserved. How will we play League of Legends once the servers are shut down? The answer is, we simply won't and there is absolutely no reason to freak out about it 

Think about other forms of arts that degrade with time, like architecture. Older buildings, they degrade with time and is simply impossible to keep every single one of them identical to what they used to be. What is reasonable is to select a few of them and... I don't know the word in English, in Portuguese is "tombar" which means acknowledge the historical, artistic and cultural relevance of some piece or property and turn them into a public property, which gave the state responsibility over its maintenance  

In cultural areas of cities some buildings frontage can't be remodeled because of laws. 

Thats exactly what should happen with games. We need to select a few of them and turn them public property when recognized their historical and cultural value

This, however, is so far ahead in future that is totally pointless to even discuss right now. It's something to think about in maybe 100 years,  not now. Games that are likely to become public property are the ones that are popular enough to have several copies and backups distributed, preserving those will be a non issue. That's not counting the possibility of some IPs being to successful that still no reason for them to become public, have any of early Disney movies disappeared so far? 

They don't need to want to destroy a game, it suffices that they don't care.

Here are 2 lists of lost video games. If you look closely, there are many that were made after 2000, and even quite a few after 2010.

https://lostmediawiki.com/Category:Lost_video_games

https://lostmediaarchive.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Lost_Video_Games

This is why video game preservation is important, every year there are more that could be added to the list. And there will potentially be an onslaught of them when Apple makes it's threat true that it will remove every single game that hasn't been updated in 2 years.

Another question is, that even if the game still exists, can it still be run? Try running a 16-bit windows game (or one with a 16-bit installer) on a modern 64-bit OS and hardware for instance. It's impossible to do without virtualization or emulation (if a 3D accelerator (GPU) is needed, then only emulation is a possibility). Some 80's arcade games were so matched to the tech of the arcade hardware that they still run like shit or not at all on high-end PCs to this day despite technically being billion times faster.

If there hadn't be a large abandonware community in the late 90's through today, then many pre-internet games would have been lost forever by now. And their master tapes (which allow to access and edit the code - if the engine still exists, that is) are for the most part really lost, so you can't update them to run on modern hardware without trickery.

Most of the games on these lists had been cancelled and were never released, are tech demos or even only certain versions of not lost games like a PC port that is mentioned.

Last edited by Kakadu18 - on 29 April 2022

hinch said:
Doctor_MG said:

You're mixing up preservation with distribution. Nintendo preserves their games. That's how they were able to release an almost 30 year old incomplete game by the name of starfox 2. 

Nintendo is probably one of the best at preserving their old code, actually. They just don't distribute that code to the masses. In fact, rumor has it, they have the source code and/or a final ROM for every game that has ever released on any of their consoles.

Regarding your last paragraph.. This probably explains why Nintendo's rereleases, remasters and remakes are so good. All devs should do this imo *Cough-SquareEnix-cough* https://screenrant.com/final-fantasy-source-code-lost-no-leaks-square/

I guess there would be little dispute in saying Nintendo values their IPs and earn more from them than any other company plus until recently I would say most company would be closer to SE than to Ninty on original assets preservation.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Bofferbrauer2 said:
Chrkeller said:

Game preservation seems like such an odd thing to care about.

You have no idea.

An entire batch of historians is freaking out whenever a game is becoming unplayable for whatever reason and the code isn't properly preserved. They are fighting for years to force Video game companies to safeguard the code for future generations, with little avail so far.

They are also behind the archive.org DOS games page where you can download and play old DOS games in your browser in an effort to preserve DOS games:

https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos_games

While I’m a strong advocate for copyright laws and very much against game piracy, and the rights of creators and product owners to have the ultimate say on what happens with their product, how much people should pay, and how people should own it, etc. I’m also a strong advocate for formal abandonware legislation, processes, and platforms.

If I were to be an idealist, this would be the ideal situation: if a company has no more plans with a game, then it becomes public property. A publishing company has no right to destroy the code and assets of a game without the consent of the creators - including artists, designers, engineers, voice actors, composers, producers, and even developmental quality assurance - since they too have an impact on the creation. The publishers might still get to destroy the games, but creators will at least be able to negotiate a payoff. As well, if assets are “accidentally” lost, then they should have great reason (like a number of buildings randomly exploding) since it’s very difficult for the company version repositories and all the assets across all of the computers to be accidentally lost - since there are revisions, assets, and builds stored across multiple locations.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

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Under what entitlement would the public have in owning something they did not create? If I build a chair... and I don't want my chair anymore, I have to give it to somebody????



Chrkeller said:

Under what entitlement would the public have in owning something they did not create? If I build a chair... and I don't want my chair anymore, I have to give it to somebody????

Sometimes I think interest is more important than private interest. Like, should Lord of the Rings copyright belongs to companies and Tolkien descendents forever or should they, eventually, become public property? 

This not a matter of discussion. Laws have long ago settled books like that will become public domain once the license expires 

I have no idea what was settled for games though because I believe the copyright belongs to companies and not creators and a company can survive for centuries. I don't think games should remain private property forever though and must become public eventually 

But alas, this is a pretty big discussion. I have no background in laws to elaborate a solid position here 



IcaroRibeiro said:
Chrkeller said:

Under what entitlement would the public have in owning something they did not create? If I build a chair... and I don't want my chair anymore, I have to give it to somebody????

Sometimes I think interest is more important than private interest. Like, should Lord of the Rings copyright belongs to companies and Tolkien descendents forever or should they, eventually, become public property? 

This not a matter of discussion. Laws have long ago settled books like that will become public domain once the license expires 

I have no idea what was settled for games though because I believe the copyright belongs to companies and not creators and a company can survive for centuries. I don't think games should remain private property forever though and must become public eventually 

But alas, this is a pretty big discussion. I have no background in laws to elaborate a solid position here 

I read about it briefly yesterday, it seems said license is 95 years.  So.....  at some point it will be public, but not in my lifetime.  

Personally I think Tolken copy right belongs to the family until they decide to sell it.  It can be theirs forever.  It is their property.  I don't know how old Mickey Mouse is, but it still makes money for Disney.  It wouldn't be right to steal their property just because somebody wants it.  How old is Coca Cola?  Should Coke be stripped of their money making cow?    



So, back when the Snes Mini and also when the NSO were unveiled many games kept being mentioned on a lot of peoples' wishlist, and one of them was Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 4: Turtles in Time. Gamers all over the world love it since 1992, but the most likely explanation for its' absence  are licensing problems. 

Now it is going to be part of the Cowabunga Collection that will be released someday. I want it.

I think the question here is to define which games should and should not be preserved. A tough decision that I would never want to be held accountable for. I do want TMNT4, however, and I know I'm not the only one.



Chrkeller said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

Sometimes I think interest is more important than private interest. Like, should Lord of the Rings copyright belongs to companies and Tolkien descendents forever or should they, eventually, become public property? 

This not a matter of discussion. Laws have long ago settled books like that will become public domain once the license expires 

I have no idea what was settled for games though because I believe the copyright belongs to companies and not creators and a company can survive for centuries. I don't think games should remain private property forever though and must become public eventually 

But alas, this is a pretty big discussion. I have no background in laws to elaborate a solid position here 

I read about it briefly yesterday, it seems said license is 95 years.  So.....  at some point it will be public, but not in my lifetime.  

Personally I think Tolken copy right belongs to the family until they decide to sell it.  It can be theirs forever.  It is their property.  I don't know how old Mickey Mouse is, but it still makes money for Disney.  It wouldn't be right to steal their property just because somebody wants it.  How old is Coca Cola?  Should Coke be stripped of their money making cow?    

Disney can still making use of Mickey character even if their very first movies become public property 

The point of culture pieces becoming public is to recognize them as piece of arts where their cultural and historical values offset their economical value. Public domain artwork is great because can be freely used for educational and recreational purposes. Not everything must be subject of capitalism, there are more important things in society than providing infinite money for privileged people who just have the luck to born in the families as past artists. I personally couldn't care less if JK Rowlling great-great-great-great children won't profit from her work

For once, most of theatrical plays are based on public domain plays. Imagine how dreadful would be the state of Theater as a art field if there was no public domain stories and they absolutely need to pay copyrights for children plays on high school? 

Last edited by IcaroRibeiro - on 29 April 2022