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Forums - Sales Discussion - Aloy has displaced Lara Croft!

IcaroRibeiro said:

OP I think you now understand what can happen when you try to make a click bait thread like this 

Anyway congrats to developers of both Lara and Alloy,  Lara is such an iconic character now and her games still selling strong almost 25 years after the first one launched in a time when the absolute majority of main characters used to be male. And congrats Alloy for such mind-blowing sales for a debut IP, I hope Forbidden West sells even more because it's a great franchise 

Yeah, the title was a mistake too. Shouldn't have framed it as a contest. I chose the title as an attention-getter so people would actually read the thread.

Anyway, fret not because it will definitely never happen again. This is the last thread I'll be starting for a while.

EDIT: Oh good Lord I just thought of something: I posted something similar to the OP as a comment over on the the Horizon sales article on the main page earlier this morning. I better go delete it right now!

EDIT 2: Oh good, the article is gone from the main page anyway. Thank you whoever removed it!

Last edited by Jaicee - on 15 February 2022

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Jaicee said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

OP I think you now understand what can happen when you try to make a click bait thread like this 

Anyway congrats to developers of both Lara and Alloy,  Lara is such an iconic character now and her games still selling strong almost 25 years after the first one launched in a time when the absolute majority of main characters used to be male. And congrats Alloy for such mind-blowing sales for a debut IP, I hope Forbidden West sells even more because it's a great franchise 

Yeah, the title was a mistake too. Shouldn't have framed it as a contest. I chose the title as an attention-getter so people would actually read the thread.

Anyway, fret not because it will definitely never happen again. This is the last thread I'll be starting for a while.

EDIT: Oh good Lord I just thought of something: I posted something similar to the OP as a comment over on the the Horizon sales article on the main page earlier this morning. I better go delete it right now!

EDIT 2: Oh good, the article is gone from the main page anyway. Thank you whoever removed it!

I'm gonna go find that article and downvote your comment hurr durr. Jk, it's not a big deal. Always great to see new IPs succeed.

Last edited by Kakadu18 - on 15 February 2022

The gender of the protagonist matters little, only marketing and quality, get those right and you have big sales. The last of Us part 2 and Resident Evil 2 also sold a lot, which also has female protagonists. Most Final fantasy games also had male and female protagonist and sold quite well.

You can basically play almost the whole of Final fantasy 7 remake as a girl if you want, not too mention the plethora of games you can choose to play as a female, (pretty much all recent Pokémon games, all soul games etc). Hell the female Pokémon player is more iconic if it's just sales based.

However more sales doesn't automatically mean iconic. Lara Croft has starred in a lot of games and is still way more iconic as female heroïne than Aloy. Same way Superman is more iconic as a superhero than let's say Spiderman. Even though the latter has caught up commercially and is definitely more popular lately.

Aloy is still a good protagonist though and we should of course value and celebrate more strong female protagonists. However I don't think Alloy is anywhere near as iconic as tomb raider, perhaps in 10 years. I would go as far to say that Seamus is even more iconic, (mostly thanks to Smash).

We shouldn't forget that most PlayStation and Xbox players are probably still white males, so it's also pretty normal that companies tried to cater to that audience. Not everything needs to be exactly 50/50, woman protagonist are a bit more common now as are female gamers who play big AAA games It's not a new invention or something that never happened before. The strength of Horizon is also that it doesn't make a big deal of it in itself.

Last edited by Qwark - on 15 February 2022

Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

I don’t think this is accurate. In fact I would argue that Sony has actually really struggled over the last 20 years to have any IPs that have break through pop culture success that their competitors have had. Virtually all non video game players can tell you who Mario is, who Zelda and Link are, who Pikachu is. Hell, I would imagine a good portion of them know who Master Chief is, at least vaguely as the “halo guy” if nothing else.

Lara Croft had that breakthrough success, where even non game players know who she is. I don’t think that has yet happened for a PlayStation IP in the last 15 years. That does not speak at all to the quality of the games they output, just that for whatever reason they have struggled to break out of the PlayStation ecosystem. I know a number of guys that are life long PC gamers that I would consider relatively “plugged in” to games culture that couldn’t tell you who Aloy is.

I think Sony is aware of this which is why they are trying to break so many of their IP out of the PlayStation console culture bubble



Who's Aloy? Chips Ahoy? Tomb Raider came at a perfect time in video game culture. Sales are not the same as impact on culture esp compared from two very different periods in gaming. Lara was everywhere. Not just games or movies, commercials. Freaking Playboy when that was a big deal. It was gaming news when a new model would play her in public events. She was truly Iconic. Aloy is not. the game sold well. Ok yeah in modern gaming. She's not everywhere. She's not popping up in all sorts of other media. Lara was one of the icons that represented a decade. Aloy represents nothing but her own game. Outside of PS fans, hardly anyone knows who TF Aloy is. How many games these days feature tough badass women? A million esp from western devs. Lara was one of the first to bring a tough BA woman into 3D. Before that most female playable game characters were in Bikinis with swords or extremely Japanese games so were more niche. One exception is Metroid but Samus is covered in armor.

I don't like the LC games at all. I thought they were clunky as hell then and only aged worse now. But saying Aloy is as known as LC is a joke.



Bite my shiny metal cockpit!

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Both of them are iconic women for sure... but neither of them can touch the baddest woman in gaming history: Samus Aran.



Jaicee said:
Mnementh said:

If young people *really* are more familiar with Aloy than Lara Croft and if they really still are in 10 to 15 years, then you will have a point. But at this point it is all speculation. Horizon Zero Dawn is a successful commercial product. But many successful commercial products have come and gone without leaving a bigger cultural imprint. To judge that we need to see into the future, and I at least can't.

The thing I am conflicting with is the term "cultural icon", because that term to me has a much deeper meaning than one fleeting successful product. I have no problem whatsoever to note the success of this game, 20M isn't something a lot of games achieve.

Yes, people really are hung up on that one subjective word I used in the OP to the point of, well, missing my main point even though I've subsequently clarified it multiple times now. This was supposed to be a celebratory thread, but because I'm the author instead I've offended everyone somehow again. That's how it fucking works. Everything I do goes to hell. I'm always in the minority opinion on everything. People look for any teeny, tiny, little nitpicky faults and semantics they can possibly find with everything I say and use them to ruin everything because they don't like me because there's something wrong with me.

If to make this any clearer, forget I ever used the term "icon", okay? It was a mistake. I should never have said that. I probably should never say anything really because I'm always going to be wrong. But please just try re-reading the OP again without that one word. I'll make it easier for you and retroactively delete it. I wish I could just delete this whole thread because all it is now is just yet another hit to my whole image and reputation around here because there weren't enough of those yet.

I was just trying to say that it sold more copies than the best-selling Tomb Raider game, making it the best-selling heroine-focused game ever. That's all. Something factually non-disputable about which I'm still somehow absolutely wrong anyway. Nevermind. It's ruined.

EDIT: There. The offending line is gone now.

That one subjective word set the tone for everything else.  Not sure why you care so much if other people agree with your opinion.  Throw it out there, defend it and even if no one agrees so what.  The problem would be to dismiss reasoned disagreements or get upset.  At the end of the day, no one really changes their opinion and only you know fully what you mean, everyone else can only interpret and most times its not going to always be on point.

Anyway you should revel in having the minority opinion.



The main mistake done here was to correlate the commercial success of a game to relevance/iconicity of it's characters

Many things can be successful and yet falter to permeate in cultural revelancy. Actually, even milder success franchise, like Kirby, manages to be more relevant across the general public/internet sphere because it's mascot is versatile to be pretty much everything you want almost. I don't think Aloy has managed to represent itself on the same level thus far. In a few years maybe ? But that kind of legacy doesn't build itself over night.



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Give it another decade. The Horizon franchise still needs time to grow, whether it be through another mainline game, VR spinoffs, an MMO, a television series, cameos in other games, comic books, toys, etc.



A lot of people that don't play games know about Lara Croft.

Basically no one outside of the gaming sphere know about Aloy.

It's not about game sales it's about brand recognition and Lara Croft/Tomb Raider is still a much stronger brand.