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Forums - Sales Discussion - Aloy has displaced Lara Croft!

Mnementh said:
Jaicee said:

People, people, I meant iconic in terms of current cultural relevance within gaming, as in simply to note that Horizon is outselling the most successful Tomb Raider games. I mean personally, there are definitely game heroines (and antagonists for that matter) I connect with more deeply than either Aloy or Lara myself, ranging from Ellie from The Last of Us to Celeste's Madeline and others, so I also didn't mean to imply that Aloy is the objectively greatest female game character or anything like that. I mean my own tastes aren't shaped by sales.

I meant simply to highlight the commercial success of the game and the fact that it's unprecedented for titles narratively centering heroines. I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings!

I think nobody here really argued about who is the "better" heroine, or better games or whatever. The argument more is different. You see, books, movies and games are at the same time a commercial product and a work of culture. If HZD sold 20 million copies, it is undeniably a successful commercial product, I think nobody would say otherwise. If that means it has a big cultural impact though is too early to clearly say. Tomb Raider/Lara Croft had the time to access the situation, and Tomb Raider stayed relevant over more than two decades with influences on other works and releases in more media than one (movies besides the games). That shows that Lara Croft is a cultural icon. It is just too early to say the same about Aloy/Horizon. It just gets a second game soon and as far as I know has no other media reception. If that will have cultural impact we can talk about in ten years.

I suspect that the matter is very much one of a person's age at this point. People under the age of 25 today I would bet are more likely to be familiar with Aloy than with Lara Croft. Those are, statistically and historically speaking, the people who will still be gamers 10 and 15 years from now.

That's not to say Lara Croft has become less relevant by any means. On the contrary, all installments of the last decade's new Tomb Raider trilogy have bested the same franchise's previous sales record, which was set by Tomb Raider II from 1997, and this math suggests that Lara has indeed generationally expanded her audience beyond the traditional pool of 7 million or so long-term loyalists with this new trilogy. But for a new heroine-centric IP to best the top-selling Tomb Raider entry in fewer years on the market despite availability on fewer platforms is objectively a development of historic significance. That's the essential thing I'm noting here.



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Are you for real? Aloy is still too far to beat Lara Croft. Most people will know about Lara Croft.  Only few people would even know about aloy. Maybe after a couple movie releases she can catch up. 



Jaicee said:
Mnementh said:

I think nobody here really argued about who is the "better" heroine, or better games or whatever. The argument more is different. You see, books, movies and games are at the same time a commercial product and a work of culture. If HZD sold 20 million copies, it is undeniably a successful commercial product, I think nobody would say otherwise. If that means it has a big cultural impact though is too early to clearly say. Tomb Raider/Lara Croft had the time to access the situation, and Tomb Raider stayed relevant over more than two decades with influences on other works and releases in more media than one (movies besides the games). That shows that Lara Croft is a cultural icon. It is just too early to say the same about Aloy/Horizon. It just gets a second game soon and as far as I know has no other media reception. If that will have cultural impact we can talk about in ten years.

I suspect that the matter is very much one of a person's age at this point. People under the age of 25 today I would bet are more likely to be familiar with Aloy than with Lara Croft. Those are, statistically and historically speaking, the people who will still be gamers 10 and 15 years from now.

That's not to say Lara Croft has become less relevant by any means. On the contrary, all installments of the last decade's new Tomb Raider trilogy have bested the same franchise's previous sales record, which was set by Tomb Raider II from 1997, and this math suggests that Lara has indeed generationally expanded her audience beyond the traditional pool of 7 million or so long-term loyalists with this new trilogy. But for a new heroine-centric IP to best the top-selling Tomb Raider entry in fewer years on the market despite availability on fewer platforms is objectively a development of historic significance. That's the essential thing I'm noting here.

If young people *really* are more familiar with Aloy than Lara Croft and if they really still are in 10 to 15 years, then you will have a point. But at this point it is all speculation. Horizon Zero Dawn is a successful commercial product. But many successful commercial products have come and gone without leaving a bigger cultural imprint. To judge that we need to see into the future, and I at least can't.

The thing I am conflicting with is the term "cultural icon", because that term to me has a much deeper meaning than one fleeting successful product. I have no problem whatsoever to note the success of this game, 20M isn't something a lot of games achieve.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year] [+], [1], [2], [3], [4]

TheTitaniumNub said:

Definitely opinion based still, I mean congrats to Sony and devs of Horizon for selling very well, but that's not gonna convince me that Aloy is more iconic than Lara Croft.... Bayonetta is still my favorite heroine in gaming, I hope Bayonetta 3 can also pull amazing sales! :)

^^ that, definitly your opinion (OP)

I love Horizon, probably my best new IP in the past years. But Lara Croft is more iconic at the end.

Maybe in few years tho after we get more games and content around her (like the VR game too) :)



I think if you did a survey asking non-gamers or even casual gamers if they know Lara Croft or Aloy, more people would recognize Lara Croft than Aloy, both by name and by picture. Strong sales for Horizon can't override a 20 year legacy as the most prominent and recognizable female video game character.



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Mnementh said:

If young people *really* are more familiar with Aloy than Lara Croft and if they really still are in 10 to 15 years, then you will have a point. But at this point it is all speculation. Horizon Zero Dawn is a successful commercial product. But many successful commercial products have come and gone without leaving a bigger cultural imprint. To judge that we need to see into the future, and I at least can't.

The thing I am conflicting with is the term "cultural icon", because that term to me has a much deeper meaning than one fleeting successful product. I have no problem whatsoever to note the success of this game, 20M isn't something a lot of games achieve.

Yes, people really are hung up on that one subjective word I used in the OP to the point of, well, missing my main point even though I've subsequently clarified it multiple times now. This was supposed to be a celebratory thread, but because I'm the author instead I've offended everyone somehow again. That's how it fucking works. Everything I do goes to hell. I'm always in the minority opinion on everything. People look for any teeny, tiny, little nitpicky faults and semantics they can possibly find with everything I say and use them to ruin everything because they don't like me because there's something wrong with me.

If to make this any clearer, forget I ever used the term "icon", okay? It was a mistake. I should never have said that. I probably should never say anything really because I'm always going to be wrong. But please just try re-reading the OP again without that one word. I'll make it easier for you and retroactively delete it. I wish I could just delete this whole thread because all it is now is just yet another hit to my whole image and reputation around here because there weren't enough of those yet.

I was just trying to say that it sold more copies than the best-selling Tomb Raider game, making it the best-selling heroine-focused game ever. That's all. Something factually non-disputable about which I'm still somehow absolutely wrong anyway. Nevermind. It's ruined.

EDIT: There. The offending line is gone now.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 15 February 2022

Jaicee said:
Mnementh said:

If young people *really* are more familiar with Aloy than Lara Croft and if they really still are in 10 to 15 years, then you will have a point. But at this point it is all speculation. Horizon Zero Dawn is a successful commercial product. But many successful commercial products have come and gone without leaving a bigger cultural imprint. To judge that we need to see into the future, and I at least can't.

The thing I am conflicting with is the term "cultural icon", because that term to me has a much deeper meaning than one fleeting successful product. I have no problem whatsoever to note the success of this game, 20M isn't something a lot of games achieve.

Yes, people really are hung up on that one subjective word I used in the OP to the point of, well, missing my main point even though I've subsequently clarified it multiple times now. This was supposed to be a celebratory thread, but because I'm the author instead I've offended everyone somehow again. That's how it fucking works. Everything I do goes to hell. I'm always in the minority opinion on everything. People look for any little teeny, tiny, nitpicky faults they can possibly find with everything I say and use them to ruin everything because they don't like me because there's something wrong with me.

If to make this any clearer, forget I ever used the term "icon", okay? It was a mistake. I should never have said that. I probably should never say anything really because I'm always going to be wrong. But please just try re-reading the OP again without that one word. I'll make it easier for you and retroactively delete it. I wish I could just delete this whole thread because all it is now is just yet another hit to my whole image and reputation around here because there weren't enough of those yet.

I was just trying to say that it sold more copies than the best-selling Tomb Raider, making it the best-selling heroine-focused game ever. That's all. Something factually non-disputable about which I'm still somehow absolutely wrong anyway. Nevermind. It's ruined.

EDIT: There. The offending line is gone now.

Sorry, I didn't wanted to attack your personality. You celebrated a milestone and added a opinion. I agreed on the milestone and had a different opinion. I think discussions like these are refreshing, iterating over differing point of views. You don't need to see my disagreement with your concrete stance as an disagreement on your existance and I am very sorry if you see it as such. Stand with your opinion. I actually talked about the term cultural icon in my last post, because I gathered that we have differing views on that and therefore to explain my understanding and concluding opinions. That doesn't deny your stance on it, I actually said: "because that term to me has a much deeper meaning". You see I actually pointed out my point of view, this doesn't negate yours.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year] [+], [1], [2], [3], [4]

Seems like people got unnecesarily triggered with the "diplaced Lara Croft part" lol.
Lara Croft is cetainly much more "iconic" and recognizable, I grew up with Tomb Raider and she was all over the place back then, but I personally like Aloy much more as a character, shes just much more interesting. And I for one im glad Horizon is doing so well in its short lifespan. That said, Aloy is more nuanced and serious to really pop out like Lara Croft or Bayonetta - so I dunno if she'll ever become an "Icon" of that level just because shes not that much of a caricature, at least in the traditional sense.
That said, for me, personally, Samus is the ultimate "strong female lead" in videogames.



OP I think you now understand what can happen when you try to make a click bait thread like this 

Anyway congrats to developers of both Lara and Alloy,  Lara is such an iconic character now and her games still selling strong almost 25 years after the first one launched in a time when the absolute majority of main characters used to be male. And congrats Alloy for such mind-blowing sales for a debut IP, I hope Forbidden West sells even more because it's a great franchise 



Mnementh said:
Jaicee said:

Yes, people really are hung up on that one subjective word I used in the OP to the point of, well, missing my main point even though I've subsequently clarified it multiple times now. This was supposed to be a celebratory thread, but because I'm the author instead I've offended everyone somehow again. That's how it fucking works. Everything I do goes to hell. I'm always in the minority opinion on everything. People look for any little teeny, tiny, nitpicky faults they can possibly find with everything I say and use them to ruin everything because they don't like me because there's something wrong with me.

If to make this any clearer, forget I ever used the term "icon", okay? It was a mistake. I should never have said that. I probably should never say anything really because I'm always going to be wrong. But please just try re-reading the OP again without that one word. I'll make it easier for you and retroactively delete it. I wish I could just delete this whole thread because all it is now is just yet another hit to my whole image and reputation around here because there weren't enough of those yet.

I was just trying to say that it sold more copies than the best-selling Tomb Raider, making it the best-selling heroine-focused game ever. That's all. Something factually non-disputable about which I'm still somehow absolutely wrong anyway. Nevermind. It's ruined.

EDIT: There. The offending line is gone now.

Sorry, I didn't wanted to attack your personality. You celebrated a milestone and added a opinion. I agreed on the milestone and had a different opinion. I think discussions like these are refreshing, iterating over differing point of views. You don't need to see my disagreement with your concrete stance as an disagreement on your existance and I am very sorry if you see it as such. Stand with your opinion. I actually talked about the term cultural icon in my last post, because I gathered that we have differing views on that and therefore to explain my understanding and concluding opinions. That doesn't deny your stance on it, I actually said: "because that term to me has a much deeper meaning". You see I actually pointed out my point of view, this doesn't negate yours.

Okay. I overreacted. I know. My frustration was obviously with more than just you and more than just this thread and more than just this forum and for that matter with more than just the internet. I'm clearly not a good communicator because it just seems like I have to be absolutely perfect or people in general won't see more than 1% of what I write and will latch onto that 1% and never let go and never forgive me and I can't measure up to that standard. I don't know how to converse with other people without my intent being constantly misread.

Anyway, look I guess you're probably right about what the dictionary definition implies and I really don't care enough to press forward with arguing to the contrary. I was just trying to say that this is obviously an historic development that I thought was worth mentioning. Wish I could go back and change the thread title too because that's likely part of the problem as well. Shouldn't have framed it as a contest. I chose the title as an attention-getter so people would actually read the thread.