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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Any advantage of Series X on a 1080p TV?

EricHiggin said:
DonFerrari said:

There would be no real benefit in making the casing of Series S the same of Series X it would just be empty space, why would it boost performance? The lower GPU is due to the selection of chip not casing.

The TV will upscale to 4k anyway, but sure considering even X1S had an upscaler and a 4k disc there really is no reason for MS to not have upscaler on Series S (and well it was confirmed to support 1440p60fps rendering).

And nope it isn`t everything that should be called anti-consumer. It is just when it is pretty clear that something was possible, and is made by them and is just not allowed because of their own decisions. There is no real defense for a console that is at least equal in power to X1X to not be allowed to run X1X version of the game but go for X1S version.

The tighter the hardware is confined, the tougher it is to cool and hotter it will likely run, or louder it will sound. If they put XBSS in a bigger shell, they could likely boost the APU clocks to some degree without losing too much due to yields. Was this choice anti consumer?

Ya but those in the know, know that TV upscaling almost never beats the hardware doing it itself. If you've bought an XBSS, how expensively high end is your TV likely to be?

So would you also agree SNY is anti consumer for not offering a $299 version of the PS5? Did MS have to, or could they have just kept XB1X with XBSX, or better yet, launch XBSX only while discontinuing XB1X anyway?

The size of the console isn't anti-consumer, the CPU it have is almost the same as Series X, the GPU is like 1/3, and everything else scalled to meet the need, so even if you made it twice the size it would barely matter.

You are trying to make a enormous strawman here. Sony is losing a lot of money on discless PS5 to the point people are complaining that they are paying to much for the one with disc for 100 USD more.

It would be anti-consumer if Sony for example decided that digital PS5 won't have BC for the digital titles because it can't o BC for physical due to not having disc. Keeping or discontinuing X1X is irrelevant.

Pemalite said:
DonFerrari said:

I think it was an odd decision since Series S is at least on par with X1X, and considering ram and CPU it is much better. But well they must have their reasoning and perhaps fanbase reaction may make they reconsider it.

Xbox One X has 12GB of Ram and the Xbox Series S has 10GB.
20% is a fair chunk.

The Xbox One X also has more compute on the graphics processor which could be doing some offloading.
Either way, the Xbox Series S *could* run the games in an "enhanced" state, but it wouldn't be able to brute-force, it would require for all games to be reworked, if people cared about 4k enhanced games, they would not be buying a more budget orientated 1080P/1440P console anyway.

There is plenty of HW leeway between using X1S version and allowing it enhanced on Series S.

Sure 20% difference in RAM is something, still you have PS4Pro version of those 3rd party games that run at over 1080p without needing over 8Gb of system RAM. Also wasn't confirmed that OS of Series uses less RAM than X1S and X1X?

And considering the SSD advantages that could also give some leverage for the RAM. The fact is that they are just cheaping it out since the HW is capable of much more than they are allowing it.



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Microsoft are pitching Series S as a low resolution version of X. But obviously with the X's GPU having about 3x more performance, there should be more differences than that. And I don't think MS are communicating all the differences very well, maybe intentionally.

For instance, my TV is a bit rubbish considering it's only last year's model. HDMI 1.4 means that with the Series X, if I force 4k (+ downsampling) I'm limited to 30fps - not an option. So I'd rather settle for 1080p + 60fps.

However... it's not just frame rate or resolution that will be affected. Polygon count, texture detail, amount of raytracing, amount of effects should all be more complex and higher processed on the X vs the S. In other words, if you have a 1080p - whether capable of supersampling or not - you're still better off with the X because of the extra GPU grunt doing so much more than just resolution/frame rate improvements. Unless I'm missing something?



So.
Xbox has this streaming game service that supposedly works great on mobile (gonna try it out this weekend).
With this, I might only buy one Xbox this gen. My question:

You guys thing the XSS will be able to stream XSX versions of games later on?



Twitter: @d21lewis

DonFerrari said:

There is plenty of HW leeway between using X1S version and allowing it enhanced on Series S.

I absolutely agree.
But Microsoft probably doesn't want to invest the time, money and resources to create a "Series S" build for all the BC titles on the Xbox, Xbox 360 and Xbox One.

DonFerrari said:

Sure 20% difference in RAM is something, still you have PS4Pro version of those 3rd party games that run at over 1080p without needing over 8Gb of system RAM. Also wasn't confirmed that OS of Series uses less RAM than X1S and X1X?

I doubt the Ram reduction is going to make up for the 20% physical Ram deficit... Plus Emulation has a *ton* of overhead, granted Microsoft isn't doing just pure emulation, it's still doing *some* emulation, obviously no one can assert one way or another as we cannot do any memory use profiling on the Xbox One to see how much DRAM games actually need.

DonFerrari said:

And considering the SSD advantages that could also give some leverage for the RAM. The fact is that they are just cheaping it out since the HW is capable of much more than they are allowing it.

Older backwards compatible titles aren't built with an SSD in mind.

ManUtdFan said:

However... it's not just frame rate or resolution that will be affected. Polygon count, texture detail, amount of raytracing, amount of effects should all be more complex and higher processed on the X vs the S. In other words, if you have a 1080p - whether capable of supersampling or not - you're still better off with the X because of the extra GPU grunt doing so much more than just resolution/frame rate improvements. Unless I'm missing something?

You are absolutely on the money.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

DonFerrari said:
EricHiggin said:

Well what was XB1 technically capable of that it didn't do either? Did it have BC at launch? Just because it could, doesn't mean it should. There's always tomorrow. There are plenty of products in all sectors that simply need slight changes or unlocks to allow for full use. People themselves are capable of much more than they typically output. Just depends on what you want to offer vs someone or something else.

When the service will be available on the same family of products and it is technically capable then yes they are just removing that from the baseline to make the more expensive look more valuable. And that is from the consumer friendly company right?

The Xbox One X has 12 GB RAM, the Xbox Series S only 10 GB RAM.

Maybe that is the main problem to use X enhanced settings on the new entry console without further patches.



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DonFerrari said:
EricHiggin said:

The tighter the hardware is confined, the tougher it is to cool and hotter it will likely run, or louder it will sound. If they put XBSS in a bigger shell, they could likely boost the APU clocks to some degree without losing too much due to yields. Was this choice anti consumer?

Ya but those in the know, know that TV upscaling almost never beats the hardware doing it itself. If you've bought an XBSS, how expensively high end is your TV likely to be?

So would you also agree SNY is anti consumer for not offering a $299 version of the PS5? Did MS have to, or could they have just kept XB1X with XBSX, or better yet, launch XBSX only while discontinuing XB1X anyway?

The size of the console isn't anti-consumer, the CPU it have is almost the same as Series X, the GPU is like 1/3, and everything else scalled to meet the need, so even if you made it twice the size it would barely matter.

You are trying to make a enormous strawman here. Sony is losing a lot of money on discless PS5 to the point people are complaining that they are paying to much for the one with disc for 100 USD more.

It would be anti-consumer if Sony for example decided that digital PS5 won't have BC for the digital titles because it can't o BC for physical due to not having disc. Keeping or discontinuing X1X is irrelevant.

Point is you could easily say a bunch of things are anti consumer. You could also say they're offering a pretty good deal regardless.

Conina said:
DonFerrari said:

When the service will be available on the same family of products and it is technically capable then yes they are just removing that from the baseline to make the more expensive look more valuable. And that is from the consumer friendly company right?

The Xbox One X has 12 GB RAM, the Xbox Series S only 10 GB RAM.

Maybe that is the main problem to use X enhanced settings on the new entry console without further patches.

It's probably likely that it could be done, but MS doesn't see the point, at least for now. Maybe the XB team is short for resources because they are focusing on other things they deem more important first. They didn't see the point for BC with XB1 right away either. That took like 2 or 3 years after launch before it became a thing.



Norion said:

The Series X will be a much better purchase long term since in a few years games could be running poorly on the S. I'd only recommend the S if someone really can't afford the X or for getting a second Xbox for whatever reason.

Whether or not Series S games will run poorly is uncertain, but there is certainly more potential for Series X games run better.

But like the OP said, if you just want access to the games and the highest fidelity isn't important, then a Series S should be fine. For $200, that's something people will consider.



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d21lewis said:
So.
Xbox has this streaming game service that supposedly works great on mobile (gonna try it out this weekend).
With this, I might only buy one Xbox this gen. My question:

You guys thing the XSS will be able to stream XSX versions of games later on?

I have considered this, I think streaming will utilize the Series S.

Why? It will be much cheaper for MS to make servers using Series S hardware. 4K streaming might be too demanding for many users, especially those on mobile devices. Therefore games running 4K native isn't crucial.

Honestly, I don't think you'll be content with xCloud unless you are away from home. I would rather have a Series S device at home than rely on xCloud. However, if you're somebody low on money or don't want to invest in Xbox hardware, having a streaming option can be great in that case.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Norion said:

The Series X will be a much better purchase long term since in a few years games could be running poorly on the S. I'd only recommend the S if someone really can't afford the X or for getting a second Xbox for whatever reason.

Whether or not Series S games will run poorly is uncertain, but there is certainly more potential for Series X games run better.

But like the OP said, if you just want access to the games and the highest fidelity isn't important, then a Series S should be fine. For $200, that's something people will consider.

You're right it's uncertain but with how poorly late gen games can run on consoles it makes me feel pessimistic about it. Control is a great example. It also depends on someone's standards since if by 2025-2027 the Series S is running games at 720p 30fps I'd consider that really poor performance but other people might not. It won't be $200 right away but it should get there by 2023-2024 and at that price it will be very attractive. Either way people should look at stuff like digital foundry videos before deciding if the Series S would be fine for them.



Norion said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Whether or not Series S games will run poorly is uncertain, but there is certainly more potential for Series X games run better.

But like the OP said, if you just want access to the games and the highest fidelity isn't important, then a Series S should be fine. For $200, that's something people will consider.

You're right it's uncertain but with how poorly late gen games can run on consoles it makes me feel pessimistic about it. Control is a great example. It also depends on someone's standards since if by 2025-2027 the Series S is running games at 720p 30fps I'd consider that really poor performance but other people might not. It won't be $200 right away but it should get there by 2023-2024 and at that price it will be very attractive. Either way people should look at stuff like digital foundry videos before deciding if the Series S would be fine for them.

The 8th gen has arguably had arguably more stable frame rate than previous gens. Maybe because developers can make great looking games without sacrificing too much performance.

Control is an exception and was a poorly optimized. From my understanding it has improved greatly post launch, but I can't confirm how much better. Also, the game ran best on X1X I believe, partly because it has a considerably more capable CPU. Series S is avoiding that by having virtually the same capabilities there.

I will entertain the idea that Series S may get 720p content. You need to consider 720p in the 7th gen, 8th gen and 9th gen aren't equal. Post processing effects has changed over the years. 720p often didn't look as jagged on Xbox One, but could look blurry depending on the method implemented for performance sake. 9th gen consoles will likely utilize image reconstruction techniques, something Digital Foundry has touched on many times. For example, they showed Control at 540p could resemble 1080p with DLSS. So things are different now, a low native resolution may look surprisingly sharp with new tech.

I look forward to Digital Foundry examining Series S games. Thus far it appears Series S titles are gonna look and run great. Even Gears 5 maintained 120 fps seemingly with ease. Down the road I suspect Series S will hold up well even if compromises are apparent.

I assume Series S will do well given many consumers will simply notice it plays the latest games at a low price. But when it hits that sweet spot of $199, I imagine its gonna have some great holiday sales. The soonest that may happen is holiday 2022.



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