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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Any advantage of Series X on a 1080p TV?

Mr Puggsly said:
Norion said:

You're right it's uncertain but with how poorly late gen games can run on consoles it makes me feel pessimistic about it. Control is a great example. It also depends on someone's standards since if by 2025-2027 the Series S is running games at 720p 30fps I'd consider that really poor performance but other people might not. It won't be $200 right away but it should get there by 2023-2024 and at that price it will be very attractive. Either way people should look at stuff like digital foundry videos before deciding if the Series S would be fine for them.

The 8th gen has arguably had arguably more stable frame rate than previous gens. Maybe because developers can make great looking games without sacrificing too much performance.

Control is an exception and was a poorly optimized. From my understanding it has improved greatly post launch, but I can't confirm how much better. Also, the game ran best on X1X I believe, partly because it has a considerably more capable CPU. Series S is avoiding that by having virtually the same capabilities there.

I will entertain the idea that Series S may get 720p content. You need to consider 720p in the 7th gen, 8th gen and 9th gen aren't equal. Post processing effects has changed over the years. 720p often didn't look as jagged on Xbox One, but could look blurry depending on the method implemented for performance sake. 9th gen consoles will likely utilize image reconstruction techniques, something Digital Foundry has touched on many times. For example, they showed Control at 540p could resemble 1080p with DLSS. So things are different now, a low native resolution may look surprisingly sharp with new tech.

I look forward to Digital Foundry examining Series S games. Thus far it appears Series S titles are gonna look and run great. Even Gears 5 maintained 120 fps seemingly with ease. Down the road I suspect Series S will hold up well even if compromises are apparent.

I assume Series S will do well given many consumers will simply notice it plays the latest games at a low price. But when it hits that sweet spot of $199, I imagine its gonna have some great holiday sales. The soonest that may happen is holiday 2022.

The image reconstruction part is a good point I didn't fully consider though DLSS will be more advanced I imagine. My concern is I doubt the PS5 and Series X will be running games at 4k for the entire generation and suspect that an increasing percentage of games will use lower resolutions as the generation goes on and those two systems will have far more ability to decrease resolution if needed down the line. Also certain developers expressing concern about the Series S makes me worried though I will be happy if that worry and concern doesn't come into fruition. I think the Series X is better value for what the hardware offers but if someone can't afford it or wants a secondary console for their kid or something like that then the Series S when it gets down to $199 could be a good option for sure.



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ManUtdFan said:
Microsoft are pitching Series S as a low resolution version of X. But obviously with the X's GPU having about 3x more performance, there should be more differences than that. And I don't think MS are communicating all the differences very well, maybe intentionally.

For instance, my TV is a bit rubbish considering it's only last year's model. HDMI 1.4 means that with the Series X, if I force 4k (+ downsampling) I'm limited to 30fps - not an option. So I'd rather settle for 1080p + 60fps.

However... it's not just frame rate or resolution that will be affected. Polygon count, texture detail, amount of raytracing, amount of effects should all be more complex and higher processed on the X vs the S. In other words, if you have a 1080p - whether capable of supersampling or not - you're still better off with the X because of the extra GPU grunt doing so much more than just resolution/frame rate improvements. Unless I'm missing something?

In many cases lower resolution will be enough, but there will inevitably be games using lower quality assets or effects as well. It seems to me MS has already admitted games will use lower quality assets by saying games will be smaller on Series S.

There will be flexibility. I mean games probably won't need LOD reduction or other effects lowered if there is enough resolution compromise.

Like I've said before, there won't be a standard. I think developers will have to decide what compromises they want to make with each demanding title. In many titles, reducing the resolution should be enough. But if they want a higher resolution, then maybe other aspects could be reduced.



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Norion said:
Mr Puggsly said:

The 8th gen has arguably had arguably more stable frame rate than previous gens. Maybe because developers can make great looking games without sacrificing too much performance.

Control is an exception and was a poorly optimized. From my understanding it has improved greatly post launch, but I can't confirm how much better. Also, the game ran best on X1X I believe, partly because it has a considerably more capable CPU. Series S is avoiding that by having virtually the same capabilities there.

I will entertain the idea that Series S may get 720p content. You need to consider 720p in the 7th gen, 8th gen and 9th gen aren't equal. Post processing effects has changed over the years. 720p often didn't look as jagged on Xbox One, but could look blurry depending on the method implemented for performance sake. 9th gen consoles will likely utilize image reconstruction techniques, something Digital Foundry has touched on many times. For example, they showed Control at 540p could resemble 1080p with DLSS. So things are different now, a low native resolution may look surprisingly sharp with new tech.

I look forward to Digital Foundry examining Series S games. Thus far it appears Series S titles are gonna look and run great. Even Gears 5 maintained 120 fps seemingly with ease. Down the road I suspect Series S will hold up well even if compromises are apparent.

I assume Series S will do well given many consumers will simply notice it plays the latest games at a low price. But when it hits that sweet spot of $199, I imagine its gonna have some great holiday sales. The soonest that may happen is holiday 2022.

The image reconstruction part is a good point I didn't fully consider though DLSS will be more advanced I imagine. My concern is I doubt the PS5 and Series X will be running games at 4k for the entire generation and suspect that an increasing percentage of games will use lower resolutions as the generation goes on and those two systems will have far more ability to decrease resolution if needed down the line. Also certain developers expressing concern about the Series S makes me worried though I will be happy if that worry and concern doesn't come into fruition. I think the Series X is better value for what the hardware offers but if someone can't afford it or wants a secondary console for their kid or something like that then the Series S when it gets down to $199 could be a good option for sure.

I agree, its unlikely new consoles will achieve 4K as visual fidelity is really pushed, ray tracing is utilized and especially if 60 fps is a goal. The problem is people keep thinking about games that are low resolution and 30 fps on Series X. Developers will simply figure out what they need to do to make games work on Series S and they may have options that weren't previously available, maybe something similar to DLSS. Last thing, with 4K TVs being more and new consoles emphasizing resolution, I imagine developers will keep high resolutions a priority.

Ultimately, developers will decide what compromises they want to make and utilize what features that have available. This will all vary with each title so we will have to just wait and see.

Last edited by Mr Puggsly - on 18 September 2020

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Mr Puggsly said:
Norion said:

The image reconstruction part is a good point I didn't fully consider though DLSS will be more advanced I imagine. My concern is I doubt the PS5 and Series X will be running games at 4k for the entire generation and suspect that an increasing percentage of games will use lower resolutions as the generation goes on and those two systems will have far more ability to decrease resolution if needed down the line. Also certain developers expressing concern about the Series S makes me worried though I will be happy if that worry and concern doesn't come into fruition. I think the Series X is better value for what the hardware offers but if someone can't afford it or wants a secondary console for their kid or something like that then the Series S when it gets down to $199 could be a good option for sure.

I agree, its unlikely new consoles will achieve 4K as visual fidelity is really pushed, ray tracing is utilized and especially if 60 fps is a goal. The problem is people keep thinking about games that are low resolution and 30 fps on Series X. Developers will simply figure out what they need to do to make games work on Series S and they may have options that weren't previously available, maybe something similar to DLSS. Last thing, with 4K TVs being more and new consoles emphasizing resolution, I imagine developers will keep high resolutions a priority.

Ultimately, developers will decide what compromises they want to make and utilize what features that have available. This will all vary with each title so we will have to just wait and see.

Anyone thinking that is being silly yeah. The Series X and PS5 will be just fine since they're better pieces of hardware than the PS4 and Xbox One were back in 2013. What I hope is if an advanced big game years from now is having trouble running on the Series S instead of changing the game to make it run better they'll just release it running poorly on the S so it doesn't get held back for everyone else.



Norion said:

Anyone thinking that is being silly yeah. The Series X and PS5 will be just fine since they're better pieces of hardware than the PS4 and Xbox One were back in 2013. What I hope is if an advanced big game years from now is having trouble running on the Series S instead of changing the game to make it run better they'll just release it running poorly on the S so it doesn't get held back for everyone else.

The seemingly simple solution to make a game work well on Series S is just lower the resolution and other visual settings. Almost all of Xbox's library has PC releases, so they're already designed to work on wildly varying specs.

We should also consider Xbox One didn't just lower resolution in every game compared to PS4. Sometimes other effects were reduced or removed for the sake of more stable performance. In spite of that, the overall presentation wasn't bad in Xbox One titles.

My only concern is developers run into a problems with Series S having downgraded memory. GPU and CPU issues shouldn't be a problem though. You lower visual settings to compensate for GPU while CPU is virtually the same. MS already clarified games will apparently be smaller on Series S, my conclusion is Series S games may get lower quality textures to compensate for the memory downgrade.



Recently Completed
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for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

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Mr Puggsly said:
Norion said:

Anyone thinking that is being silly yeah. The Series X and PS5 will be just fine since they're better pieces of hardware than the PS4 and Xbox One were back in 2013. What I hope is if an advanced big game years from now is having trouble running on the Series S instead of changing the game to make it run better they'll just release it running poorly on the S so it doesn't get held back for everyone else.

The seemingly simple solution to make a game work well on Series S is just lower the resolution and other visual settings. Almost all of Xbox's library has PC releases, so they're already designed to work on wildly varying specs.

We should also consider Xbox One didn't just lower resolution in every game compared to PS4. Sometimes other effects were reduced or removed for the sake of more stable performance. In spite of that, the overall presentation wasn't bad in Xbox One titles.

My only concern is developers run into a problems with Series S having downgraded memory. GPU and CPU issues shouldn't be a problem though. You lower visual settings to compensate for GPU while CPU is virtually the same. MS already clarified games will apparently be smaller on Series S, my conclusion is Series S games may get lower quality textures to compensate for the memory downgrade.

I've seen developers say it's not quite as easy as reducing stuff like resolution but I'm not an expert so I'll try to be more optimistic that things will be fine. The Series S having worse ram than the One X is the aspect that concerns me the most. My thinking is that Microsoft probably tried to make the GPU and ram be as weak and slow as possible without holding things back but with them trying to get close to that line they might've gone over it a tad. I do hope you're right though.



Mr Puggsly said:

In many cases lower resolution will be enough, but there will inevitably be games using lower quality assets or effects as well. It seems to me MS has already admitted games will use lower quality assets by saying games will be smaller on Series S.

There will be flexibility. I mean games probably won't need LOD reduction or other effects lowered if there is enough resolution compromise.

Like I've said before, there won't be a standard. I think developers will have to decide what compromises they want to make with each demanding title. In many titles, reducing the resolution should be enough. But if they want a higher resolution, then maybe other aspects could be reduced.

I've made the point before, but it's a shame there isn't a universal standard, set across all games. By that I mean PC configurable options, or for simplicity sake a 1080p mode for Series X where everything gets revved to the max... 120 fps and/or higher polygons, better textures etc.



ManUtdFan said:
Mr Puggsly said:

In many cases lower resolution will be enough, but there will inevitably be games using lower quality assets or effects as well. It seems to me MS has already admitted games will use lower quality assets by saying games will be smaller on Series S.

There will be flexibility. I mean games probably won't need LOD reduction or other effects lowered if there is enough resolution compromise.

Like I've said before, there won't be a standard. I think developers will have to decide what compromises they want to make with each demanding title. In many titles, reducing the resolution should be enough. But if they want a higher resolution, then maybe other aspects could be reduced.

I've made the point before, but it's a shame there isn't a universal standard, set across all games. By that I mean PC configurable options, or for simplicity sake a 1080p mode for Series X where everything gets revved to the max... 120 fps and/or higher polygons, better textures etc.

If developers desired, there can be performance and higher quality visual modes. We don't necessarily need all the PC settings if they just offered that.

Many were angry that the latest Assassin's Creed is 4K/30 fps focused. If they simply offered a Performance mode that dropped the resolution or utilized dynamic resolution for 60 fps, many people would be happy. Assuming CPU isn't an issue, I can't imagine that even requires much work.



Recently Completed
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for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Mr Puggsly said:
ManUtdFan said:

I've made the point before, but it's a shame there isn't a universal standard, set across all games. By that I mean PC configurable options, or for simplicity sake a 1080p mode for Series X where everything gets revved to the max... 120 fps and/or higher polygons, better textures etc.

If developers desired, there can be performance and higher quality visual modes. We don't necessarily need all the PC settings if they just offered that.

Many were angry that the latest Assassin's Creed is 4K/30 fps focused. If they simply offered a Performance mode that dropped the resolution or utilized dynamic resolution for 60 fps, many people would be happy. Assuming CPU isn't an issue, I can't imagine that even requires much work.

Achieving 60fps is a job for the entire system, not just the CPU.
Any singular component can hold you back from hitting 60fps... Which is why I have tried to educate people on this before the hardware was revealed, that... Just because we get shiny new 8-core Ryzen CPU's at a decent clockspeed, does not mean we will have 60fps games across the board.

We can still be GPU limited, we can still be bandwidth limited.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

If developers desired, there can be performance and higher quality visual modes. We don't necessarily need all the PC settings if they just offered that.

Many were angry that the latest Assassin's Creed is 4K/30 fps focused. If they simply offered a Performance mode that dropped the resolution or utilized dynamic resolution for 60 fps, many people would be happy. Assuming CPU isn't an issue, I can't imagine that even requires much work.

Achieving 60fps is a job for the entire system, not just the CPU.
Any singular component can hold you back from hitting 60fps... Which is why I have tried to educate people on this before the hardware was revealed, that... Just because we get shiny new 8-core Ryzen CPU's at a decent clockspeed, does not mean we will have 60fps games across the board.

We can still be GPU limited, we can still be bandwidth limited.

Yeah, we've had this debate before. Don't wanna have it again.

I am obviously saying 60 fps is likely viable if they reduce the GPU load in upcoming titles. That's why we actually request performance modes in games at the cost of visual fidelity. But if the bottleneck is actually on the CPU, then 30 fps is easier to accept.



Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)