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Forums - Politics Discussion - Do We Really Want a New Cold War?

Eagle367 said:
Nighthawk117 said:

Pakistan–United States relations:
On 20 October 1947, two months and six days after Pakistan's independence, the United States established relations with Pakistan, making it amongst the first nations to establish relations with the new state. Pakistan allied itself with the United States during the Cold war era against the Soviet Union, and was an integral player in the CENTO and SEATO alliances.

Despite the instability of the relationship, both the countries are back to good relations and are allies against terrorism. Today the United States engages in extensive economic, social, and scientific assistance as well as vital military assistance while Pakistan continues to occupy a position in the United States' interests in Central and South Asia.

On 21 July 2019, Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan met with U.S. President Donald Trump in the White House. Both sides agreed to 'reset' the relationship between the two countries and agreed to the resumption of military aid to Pakistan. President Trump lauded Pakistan's efforts to end the war in Afghanistan due to Pakistan's participation in the Afghan peace process, and Imran Khan stated that there is no military solution for the Afghanistan quagmire and that Pakistan would assist the peace process in any way it could.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan%E2%80%93United_States_relations

Hahaha boy I grew up in Pakistan and have seen firsthand the games they play with each other. The US uses and then discards Pakistan each and every time and Pakistan's elite always try to get as much money from the US as possible and trying to swindle them as well. The ISI and CIA are the 2 most disgusting intelligence agencies and they both have a weird complicated history with each other.

You stated this earlier:"Pakistan will always choose China over US."

I'm merely poking holes in your statement - and having fun with it at the same time.



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Nighthawk117 said:
SvennoJ said:

Pro-USA? not really

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2020/01/29/stuck-in-the-middle-iraq-and-the-enduring-conflict-between-united-states-and-iran/
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/Iraqs-prime-minister-designate-zurfi-united-states-iran

The PM still is sort of, but for how long.

Afghanistan is slowly losing control as well despite finally having a cease fire.
https://www.vox.com/2020/2/21/21147020/us-afghanistan-taliban-peace-deal-pompeo

Peaceful revolutions move faster than this...

Would you agree that Afghanistan is more pro-USA than pro-China?

I have no idea honestly. I would imagine Afghanistan is more pro leave us the fuck alone.

For trade the USA exports a lot to Afghanistan, so they are pro USA when it comes to importing
Exports totaled $181.95 million and Imports totaled $5.52 million, a surplus of $176.43 million.
https://www.ustradenumbers.com/country/afghanistan/

The trade with China is more balanced
https://tradingeconomics.com/china/exports-to-afghanistan

I'm not an economics export, dunno what it all means.



Nighthawk117 said:
SvennoJ said:

Pro-USA? not really

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2020/01/29/stuck-in-the-middle-iraq-and-the-enduring-conflict-between-united-states-and-iran/
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/Iraqs-prime-minister-designate-zurfi-united-states-iran

The PM still is sort of, but for how long.

Afghanistan is slowly losing control as well despite finally having a cease fire.
https://www.vox.com/2020/2/21/21147020/us-afghanistan-taliban-peace-deal-pompeo

Peaceful revolutions move faster than this...

Would you agree that Afghanistan is more pro-USA than pro-China?

How do you measure 'more pro'?



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Mnementh said:
Nighthawk117 said:

Would you agree that Afghanistan is more pro-USA than pro-China?

How do you measure 'more pro'?

Do the policies/actions of the Afghan government favor the US over China?



First, let's separate China from CCP. That should be the first rule.

So basically according to OP, CCP just wants to do business. Nothing about that but certainly it has no intention of complying to international rules and will continue to do so. Their malpractice has been screwing a lot of nations. Everyone should listen to this speech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFqg8ZNtUlc

With the way it's exerting its extreme authoritarian power onto several countries in the SEA and also on Hong Kong and Taiwan, then let's go to a cold war with these communists.

Don't get me wrong, US has been done some messed up shit and are clearly not holier than thou. But they are way better than these commie scumbags. They need to find a way to put China in a choke hold and kill their economy. The manufacturing exodus that's happening is the first step.

Mnementh said:

The Chinese government is not trying to export communist ideology the way the Soviets did; it is more interested in exporting semiconductors.

To the point. What do people expect China does? They are a power based on trade, not ideology. So the biggest threat they offer is flooding us with products.

If you say that China does not export Ideology, that's a grave mistake. You should see how much of a reach the CCP's ideology has on some universities. To the point that they can pressure the institution to silence criticism against CCP ideologies. The video I posted above talks about it. Not to mention, it's also known that they coerce other country's government to play with their propaganda.

You want proof? Just look at Philippines and how much of a commie dick sucker the administration has become. They have our country by the balls and even slapped our face by releasing a video that implies they have our backs.

It was ironic that they titled the video "Iisang Dagat" which means "One sea" or "United sea" depending on how much implications you are putting into it. The fact that they made it like that despite knowing we have a dispute on West Philippine Sea, shows how much sincere these fuckers really are for their neighbors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E0yDvn0xiU

If you think that CCP is benevolent, just look at what they are doing with the "donations" that they are giving to other countries. They require that you publicly thank China for it.

Mnementh said:

When educated people are familiar with another country’s language and culture they are less likely to demonize it.

Something I think is very much true. An interesting point that people pointed out, is that many chinese people learn english and other western languages, understand western media and science and are willing to learn. But the other way around is very unusual.

It's funny when you think China's government and political machinery are not the worst offender out of them all when it comes to twisting words. To the point that they would mistranslate a news about the COVID-19 origins in order to just play a propaganda narrative that the virus originated in United States.

Mnementh said:

Let’s stop accusing our political opponents of being “soft on China.” Let’s be rational on China.

I think it is a general good rule to be rational on any political topic. All the 'we need to show strength' rhethoric shows restricted thinking and therefore a good chance to find only suboptimal solutions to a problem.

This is true. We have to be fair. But China's government itself should be fair to others as well. Not abiding by International Regulations and misdirecting other country's sovereignty in the process should be met with harsh response.

Last edited by iron_megalith - on 26 May 2020

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Mnementh said:
Oneeee-Chan!!! said:
Will Asians become more democratic and progressive when they come into contact with Westerners?
It hasn't sunk in yet.

Taiwan has moved from a one-party dictatorship to a democracy after Chiang Kai-sheks death. Japan was a fascist country in WW2 and has moved to become a democracy. South Korea was until the 80s a military dictatorship. I think the track record of soft influence is pretty good. In none of these countries the West imposed sanctions and none of these countries toppled the government violently to reach todays status.

The only downside: it takes decades.

Japan wasn't fascist.  They were a dictatorship under a constitutional monarchy during WW2.  They are still a constitutional monarchy but the Emperor is pretty much ceremonial and doesn't have any power.  So basically they are almost like a democracy now.

Luckily they calmed down a lot after the war and are a pretty friendly nation now.  They still hate the Chinese and the Chinese still hate the Japanese.  So I know one ally we could count on even though their military is pretty small due to their own constraints.  I believe they are expanding it more now with China going for a bigger navy.

Last edited by sethnintendo - on 26 May 2020

Nighthawk117 said:
Mnementh said:

How do you measure 'more pro'?

Do the policies/actions of the Afghan government favor the US over China?

There are a lot of actions and sometimes they favor one, sometimes the other. Afghanistan makes apparently more deals for the military with the US, but trade is much more prevalent with China. So is Afghanistan observer in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, The China Nation Petroleum Corporation explores oil fields in Afghanistan and China invested in Afghanistan as part of their Belt and Road Initiative. Afghanistan exports 15 times as much to China than to the US and imports more than 20 times as much from China. Some would say that is a lot favor to China.



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Mnementh said:
Nighthawk117 said:

Do the policies/actions of the Afghan government favor the US over China?

There are a lot of actions and sometimes they favor one, sometimes the other. Afghanistan makes apparently more deals for the military with the US, but trade is much more prevalent with China. So is Afghanistan observer in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, The China Nation Petroleum Corporation explores oil fields in Afghanistan and China invested in Afghanistan as part of their Belt and Road Initiative. Afghanistan exports 15 times as much to China than to the US and imports more than 20 times as much from China. Some would say that is a lot favor to China.

Afghanistan may favor China regarding economic issues.  But, on political issues, I believe it favors the US more.



Nighthawk117 said:
Mnementh said:

There are a lot of actions and sometimes they favor one, sometimes the other. Afghanistan makes apparently more deals for the military with the US, but trade is much more prevalent with China. So is Afghanistan observer in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, The China Nation Petroleum Corporation explores oil fields in Afghanistan and China invested in Afghanistan as part of their Belt and Road Initiative. Afghanistan exports 15 times as much to China than to the US and imports more than 20 times as much from China. Some would say that is a lot favor to China.

Afghanistan may favor China regarding economic issues.  But, on political issues, I believe it favors the US more.

Whatever you count as 'more pro'.



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Nighthawk117 said:
Eagle367 said:

I'd rather have them than Saudi Arabia and Israel. But if you think Pakistan is closer to the US, than you need to learn your history. No nation is closer to China than Pakistan. PIA trained chinese airlines and Pakistan voluntarily gave part of the disputed territory to China. Have US and Pakistan ever done something like CPEC. US/Pakistan is just a partnership of convenience, betrayal, back stabbing, trickery, intelligence and reluctance. Pakistan will always choose China over US.

Not when it comes to their jet fighters.

Pakistan doesn't have their eggs in one basket when it comes to China and US, but I'd still say they are closer to China. And that largely comes down to our support of India. If an India and Pakistan conflict were to arise we would most certainly back India over them, and Pakistan knows this, hence they have made an attempt to not rely on America as much as they did in the past.

They aren't choosing China because they align with them more per se, but moreso choosing them because they have no choice.

Last edited by newwil7l - on 26 May 2020