Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Xbox Series X's cross-gen approach is robbing players of the next-gen thrill

LudicrousSpeed said:
goopy20 said:

I'm sure it will look amazing on Series X and I guess you can interpret what 343 studios said in different ways. Maybe they will make full use of the Series X hardware and we end up seeing a completely different game than the X1 version. Or... its going to be a multiplatform game that has to run on average pc specs and the X1, which makes it kinda hard to take full advantage of things like the SSD. We will have our answer in July, I guess.

Of course it can be interpreted different ways. You can read the entire quote or watch the entire interview and take everything said and look at it logically in its entirety or you can chop it up and only quote one sentence that supports your narrative and you get an entirely different interpretation. Of course, why would someone who claims to be optimistic take such an approach? Who knows.

I'm not being pessimistic, it's just common sense. Sure, a lot of things can scale on the gpu side. But ask yourself this. Did Sony's tech demo prove that the SSD isn't just in there for fun and giggles? And if so, can developers really use the ssd, the way Epic showed in that demo, when they also have to make their game run on a platform that doesn't have a SSD? 



Around the Network
goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

Of course it can be interpreted different ways. You can read the entire quote or watch the entire interview and take everything said and look at it logically in its entirety or you can chop it up and only quote one sentence that supports your narrative and you get an entirely different interpretation. Of course, why would someone who claims to be optimistic take such an approach? Who knows.

I'm not being pessimistic, it's just common sense. Sure, a lot of things can scale on the gpu side. But ask yourself this. Did Sony's tech demo prove that the SSD isn't just in there for fun and giggles? And if so, can developers really use the ssd, the way Epic showed in that demo, when they also have to make their game run on a platform that doesn't have a SSD? 

For starters Sony didn’t need to prove the SSD wasn’t there for “fun and giggles”. Everyone has known for years that SSD tech is great for games and can make big differences. Where the debate has been going on since the Cerny talk was whether super fast SSD speeds can make up for weaker hardware.

That said, yes, of course devs can use the demo showcased on lesser hardware? It’s designed to scale all the way down to tablets and phones. 



goopy20 said:
zero129 said:

I ask again where did 343 say that it will be the "Exact" same game only upscaled.

Like you said if that UE5 demo was running on PS4 it would be the exact same game it would play the exact same. Everything is like the next gen effects you like so much would be a plus plus plus.. So how is this any different or once again does it only apply when it suits your agenda?.

And Lumen and nanite they are things that can be added to an already in development game so why would they need to scale them down for the xb1 version?.

The xb1 version will still look great without them effects so 343 wouldnt be lying however they are Plus plus plus effects so can easy run on the XsX version.

Dude... Nanite and Lumen aren't just plus-plus-plus effects you can turn on or off. Lumen and Nanite are designed to work together and are specific features that require next gen hardware. You can't scale down Nanite because without the SSD, there is no Nanite.

Think of it like this. Lets say you're building a cross gen game then yes, you can use Unreal 5. However, you will still need to keep in mind that the ps4 doesn't have a SSD, meaning streaming 8k movie quality assets on the fly and rendering huge worlds with unlimited geometry is going to set the ps4 on fire. Therefore, you can't really use Nanite. Now if you're making a next gen exclusive with Unreal 5, its a different story. Nanite would then allow you to basically go crazy with the core level and world design, and do things not possible on current gen. 

Its a good thing then that XSX is nextgen hardware that can easy run them effects then isnt it?.

And who said anything about turning them on and off?. The XSX version can easy be build using them effects and the base model doesnt need to at all this can be done in the exact same engine with the exact same team working on the exact same game. So stop painting fudge by trying to say it cant when you have already admited that UE5 demo can run on PS4 with the next gen effects stripped away or once again i ask you does it only work when it suits your agenda.

And in that interview you quoted the devs pretty much said that XSX is the lead platform and then it wont be hard to remove the nextgen effects,lower physics and res etc. So before you reply back with shit i ask you again where did 343 say that XB1 is the main platform and XSX will have nothing other then an upscale?.

Also wasnt you saying in one of the other threads that you had like this that eeffects like Ray Tracing couldnt be used on the XSX version as they "Couldnt be just down scaled" for the XB1 version. Now that you found two new effects your goal post has shifted once again to suit your agenda.

How you get away with making the same thread so many times now trolling XBox guys is beyond me.

Last edited by zero129 - on 20 May 2020

Double post by mistake.



goopy20 said:

Dude... Nanite and Lumen aren't just plus-plus-plus effects you can turn on or off. Lumen and Nanite are designed to work together and are specific features that require next gen hardware. You can't scale down Nanite because without the SSD, there is no Nanite.

Think of it like this. Lets say you're building a cross gen game then yes, you can use Unreal 5. However, you will still need to keep in mind that the ps4 doesn't have a SSD, meaning streaming 8k movie quality assets on the fly and rendering huge worlds with unlimited geometry is going to set the ps4 on fire. Therefore, you can't really use Nanite. Now if you're making a next gen exclusive with Unreal 5, its a different story. Nanite would then allow you to basically go crazy with the core level and world design, and do things not possible on current gen. 

Lumin can be "bolted on" to any game with relative ease and does NOT require Nanite to function or work "together".

Lumin is a hybrid lighting approach which leverages ray traced bounce lighting via voxels (Aka. SVOGI), temporal accumulation, signed distance fields and screen space to achieve the results it did.

Neither of these technologies rely on any individual hardware features in the next-gen consoles and are thus scalable downwards/upwards to other platforms (Performance not withstanding of course!)

Need more details on Nanite to really make the claim of "Unlimited Geometry". - We have heard such claims before remember.



Guess we will find out all those nitty gritties when I can finally play around with the Unreal 5 engine development tools.




--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Around the Network
Pemalite said:
goopy20 said:

Dude... Nanite and Lumen aren't just plus-plus-plus effects you can turn on or off. Lumen and Nanite are designed to work together and are specific features that require next gen hardware. You can't scale down Nanite because without the SSD, there is no Nanite.

Think of it like this. Lets say you're building a cross gen game then yes, you can use Unreal 5. However, you will still need to keep in mind that the ps4 doesn't have a SSD, meaning streaming 8k movie quality assets on the fly and rendering huge worlds with unlimited geometry is going to set the ps4 on fire. Therefore, you can't really use Nanite. Now if you're making a next gen exclusive with Unreal 5, its a different story. Nanite would then allow you to basically go crazy with the core level and world design, and do things not possible on current gen. 

Lumin can be "bolted on" to any game with relative ease and does NOT require Nanite to function or work "together".

Lumin is a hybrid lighting approach which leverages ray traced bounce lighting via voxels (Aka. SVOGI), temporal accumulation, signed distance fields and screen space to achieve the results it did.

Neither of these technologies rely on any individual hardware features in the next-gen consoles and are thus scalable downwards/upwards to other platforms (Performance not withstanding of course!)

Need more details on Nanite to really make the claim of "Unlimited Geometry". - We have heard such claims before remember.



Guess we will find out all those nitty gritties when I can finally play around with the Unreal 5 engine development tools.


Isn't the whole point of Nanite and Lumen to ease the burden on developers, allowing them do more in the time they have compared to current gen? From what I understand they're taking advantage of the SSD so you can import HQ assets like Zbrush sculptures directly into your game. This makes for much quicker and far more detailed world building, and Lumen is there to further cut development time by automatically lighting these crazy detailed environments. I'm sure you can also use Lumen for any game but it's main purpose is obviously to make things easier it in combination with Nanite.

On ps4, developers are far more limited by bandwidth and polygon budgets and need to use all kinds of "tricks" like baked lighting, LOD models etc. Not only is there no loss of quality on ps5, but more importantly, it would also take way more time and resources to have it run on ps4. That's why I'm guessing Nanite isn't supported on current gen as it would defeat its whole purpose. I mean, lets say you're making a multiplatform game and it takes 2 months to design a level on ps5, but having that same level run on ps4 takes 12 months because you have to do a lot of extra work on the scaling and programming side. What would be the point of using it? Next gen will be a lot less about raw horse power and a lot more about what developers can build in the fixed time frame and budget they're working with. 

Of course, Unreal 5 is a scalable engine and it will no doubt end up working even better on pc when newer SSD's hit the market, but Lumen and Nanite are definitely not designed to work on current gen consoles with a HDD. The demo was about one thing, and one thing only, to show off the new core features of the engine that were designed around the ps5's SSD tech. It's also compatible with Series X, of course, the only thing we don't know is what the difference in performance will be with half the SSD throughput, but a bit faster gpu. 

Last edited by goopy20 - on 21 May 2020

zero129 said:
goopy20 said:

Dude... Nanite and Lumen aren't just plus-plus-plus effects you can turn on or off. Lumen and Nanite are designed to work together and are specific features that require next gen hardware. You can't scale down Nanite because without the SSD, there is no Nanite.

Think of it like this. Lets say you're building a cross gen game then yes, you can use Unreal 5. However, you will still need to keep in mind that the ps4 doesn't have a SSD, meaning streaming 8k movie quality assets on the fly and rendering huge worlds with unlimited geometry is going to set the ps4 on fire. Therefore, you can't really use Nanite. Now if you're making a next gen exclusive with Unreal 5, its a different story. Nanite would then allow you to basically go crazy with the core level and world design, and do things not possible on current gen. 

Its a good thing then that XSX is nextgen hardware that can easy run them effects then isnt it?.

And who said anything about turning them on and off?. The XSX version can easy be build using them effects and the base model doesnt need to at all this can be done in the exact same engine with the exact same team working on the exact same game. So stop painting fudge by trying to say it cant when you have already admited that UE5 demo can run on PS4 with the next gen effects stripped away or once again i ask you does it only work when it suits your agenda.

And in that interview you quoted the devs pretty much said that XSX is the lead platform and then it wont be hard to remove the nextgen effects,lower physics and res etc. So before you reply back with shit i ask you again where did 343 say that XB1 is the main platform and XSX will have nothing other then an upscale?.

Also wasnt you saying in one of the other threads that you had like this that eeffects like Ray Tracing couldnt be used on the XSX version as they "Couldnt be just down scaled" for the XB1 version. Now that you found two new effects your goal post has shifted once again to suit your agenda.

How you get away with making the same thread so many times now trolling XBox guys is beyond me.

Like I said a 100 times, they aren't just effects. I think you should just try a bit harder to grasp what Epic actually demonstrated with that tech demo, instead of saying its just has some more rocks. Its a fundamental change in how games can be developed by levering next gen storage, allowing developers to spend less time working around technical limitations and focus more on worldbuilding, gameplay and adding content to their games. 

Unlike gpu bound games we've seen in the past, SSD specific tech like Nanite isn't scalable. Developers either use it, or they don't. If they're making a cross-gen game, they'll still have to jump through hoops and spend a ton of time making sacrifices in order to make it work on the Xone/ps4. Basically defeating its whole purpose. 

Yes, in theory Series X also can also take full advantage of Nanite, but its not the hardware that's the problem. My personal issue has more to do with MS's cross-gen strategy that's holding their 1st party games back from using things like Nanite from the get go. MS wants everybody to be able play their games on GP and it seems like they'll be playing the waiting game. They're not going to release AAA budget games when only 1% of the pc gamers have a pc that can run it. They'll wait till Series X like hardware becomes mainstream on pc, while in the mean time they're focused on making cross-gen, and small scale games to fill the GP library.

It's not bad perse and if you're fine with waiting a bit for true next games, then who am I to argue? A couple of years in, its not going to matter anymore anyway, as the average gaming pc will have caught up with these next gen consoles. By then, I'm sure we'll see amazing looking games on Series X, even though the next gen wow factor will have diminished by then. But in the here and now, it does rob us of that next-gen thrill. You can bet your ass Sony will be showing games during their reveal that will be build around their own Nanite-like tech. Which is why Sony's reveal will very likely be a lot more exciting than MS's showcases of "smart delivery" games.   

Last edited by goopy20 - on 21 May 2020

goopy20 said:

Isn't the whole point of Nanite and Lumen to ease the burden on developers, allowing them do more in the time they have compared to current gen? From what I understand they're taking advantage of the SSD so you can import HQ assets like Zbrush sculptures directly into your game. This makes for much quicker and far more detailed world building, and Lumen is there to further cut development time by automatically lighting these crazy detailed environments. I'm sure you can also use Lumen for any game but it's main purpose is obviously to make things easier it in combination with Nanite.

Nanite and Lumin most certainly will ease the burden on developers through streamlined process and simplification. (I.E. Not building multiple LOD assets.)
But their intrinsic technologies are not strictly tied to any hardware features, they may not even be used by every developer and game on Unreal Engine 5, it's a tool at the developers disposal.

Lumin reduces the development time by removing the need to do pre-baked global illumination, it's the not the only method of real-time lighting next gen will employ, nor is it even the best.

goopy20 said:

On ps4, developers are far more limited by bandwidth and polygon budgets and need to use all kinds of "tricks" like baked lighting, LOD models etc. Not only is there no loss of quality on ps5, but more importantly, it would also take way more time and resources to have it run on ps4. That's why I'm guessing Nanite isn't supported on current gen as it would defeat its whole purpose. I mean, lets say you're making a multiplatform game and it takes 2 months to design a level on ps5, but having that same level run on ps4 takes 12 months because you have to do a lot of extra work on the scaling and programming side. What would be the point of using it? Next gen will be a lot less about raw horse power and a lot more about what developers can build in the fixed time frame and budget they're working with. 

The Playstation 4 is more than capable of using real-time Global Illumination... In-fact games already exist that do use it via leveraging a middleware known as "Enlighten" via the Unity Engine for example. (CryEngine can do it as well... And so on.)

See here:
https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/realtime-gi-using-enlighten.html

So no, you don't "need" to do baked lighting on the Playstation 4, developers opt for that approach to save on computational resources in order to bolster image quality elsewhere.

This is just another case where people are taking on-board the "advertising" aspect of the tech demo, rather than actually understanding what technologies we use currently and how the demo achieves what it does and how it improves on what it already does.

The lighting approach, aka. Global Illumination using Voxels is *not* new, it's actually been around for years.

goopy20 said:

Of course, Unreal 5 is a scalable engine and it will no doubt end up working even better on pc when newer SSD's hit the market, but Lumen and Nanite are definitely not designed to work on current gen consoles with a HDD. The demo was about one thing, and one thing only, to show off the new core features of the engine that were designed around the ps5's SSD tech. It's also compatible with Series X, of course, the only thing we don't know is what the difference in performance will be with half the SSD throughput, but a bit faster gpu. 

We don't know what extent the Unreal 5 demo is using the Playstation 5's hardware.
We don't know if it even needs an SSD or whether a couple of mechanical disks in RAID is sufficient.

But we do know it left the Playstation 5's Ray Tracing processing cores un-used, which is extra image quality/performance/processing that can be tapped into in the future.

Lumin doesn't give a crap about what kind of storage you use either, it's not loading gigabytes of data, it's bottleneck lays in computational throughput, it is all about calculating lighting.

In terms of advantages, the Xbox Series X should be better at handling the Lumin side of the tech demo than the Playstation 5, where-as the Playstation 5 should show advantages in Nanite. In theory anyway, will be interesting when I can play around with the engine and do some profiling.

Soundwave said:
curl-6 said:

So if that's whats currently available, any idea about what could be available for a release in 2023?

Apple crossed/matched XBox One level performance two years ago with the Apple A12X chip ... Nvidia prior to that was fairly even with Apple's big ticket offerings, the Tegra X1 is pretty equivalent to the Apple A9X that launched that same year for example. Since then Nvidia has gone quiet on future Tegra X processors likely because Nintendo has asked them to as they are the main vendor for said chip and if Nvidia was talking years in advance about it everyone and their grandma on the internet would be saying it's the Switch 2 chip. 

By 2023 they should be able to do something in raw power that I think is beyond a PS4, the same way the Switch Tegra X1 is beyond a PS3/360 (especially docked). 

But when you factor in DLSS 2.0 or 3.0 ... that performance jumps massively, that is something that wasn't available in the past and means the same chip now only has to render like 1/4-1/8th the pixels or even less. That's a huge game changer. 

So suddenly a chip that's PS4+ becomes close to an actual PS5 in terms of the games it can run. 

Remember the Tegra X1 launch in May 2015, so that is 18 months after the PS4/XB1 and it is able to run PS4/XB1 games, and some pretty beefy ones at that ... Witcher 3 and DOOM are not low end PS4 titles. With no advantage of DLSS at all. 

PS5 in November 2020 versus a new Switch 2 in say summer/fall 2023 is actually a bigger time gap by over a year long than the gap between PS4 and Tegra X1. Nvidia has way better graphics engineers than AMD ... AMD can't even beat Nvidia's Turing architecture which is 2 years old now even on a smaller node (7nm vs. 12nm) which is sad.

nVidia's focus has shifted from SoC's for phones/tablets to DRIVE/Vehicles/A.I.
Hence why Nintendo has been quiet on mobile chips, it doesn't play in those markets anymore technically.

As for performance, A12X is a potent chip, it's CPU cores might even be faster than the Xbox One, but in terms of bandwidth the A12X still relies on LPDDR4X which tops out at 34GB/s in Apples configuration... So that will most certainly limit fillrate.

FP32 is a good 40% or more faster on the Xbox One S's GPU as-well, which gives it an advantage, geometry and texturing throughput should definitely be in the Xbox One S's favor as well.

Either way, the 12X is getting fairly close and will win in some cases (I.E. CPU), but no cigar just yet.

Ports of games that are downgraded is one thing, running games of equivalent visuals is an entirely different one, the Switch variant of the Witcher 3, Doom and so forth is impressive no doubt, but it still comes up short against the Xbox One version in every regard, lets not kid ourselves.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

The thrill comes from the games being new and good, like always. So long as they demonstrate the benefits of having the best version I see no real downside



 

 

goopy20 said:

Like I said a 100 times, they aren't just effects. I think you should just try a bit harder to grasp what Epic actually demonstrated with that tech demo, instead of saying its just has some more rocks. Its a fundamental change in how games can be developed by levering next gen storage, allowing developers to spend less time working around technical limitations and focus more on worldbuilding, gameplay and adding content to their games. 

Unlike gpu bound games we've seen in the past, SSD specific tech like Nanite isn't scalable. Developers either use it, or they don't. If they're making a cross-gen game, they'll still have to jump through hoops and spend a ton of time making sacrifices in order to make it work on the Xone/ps4. Basically defeating its whole purpose. 

Yes, in theory Series X also can also take full advantage of Nanite, but its not the hardware that's the problem. My personal issue has more to do with MS's cross-gen strategy that's holding their 1st party games back from using things like Nanite from the get go. MS wants everybody to be able play their games on GP and it seems like they'll be playing the waiting game. They're not going to release AAA budget games when only 1% of the pc gamers have a pc that can run it. They'll wait till Series X like hardware becomes mainstream on pc, while in the mean time they're focused on making cross-gen, and small scale games to fill the GP library.

It's not bad perse and if you're fine with waiting a bit for true next games, then who am I to argue? A couple of years in, its not going to matter anymore anyway, as the average gaming pc will have caught up with these next gen consoles. By then, I'm sure we'll see amazing looking games on Series X, even though the next gen wow factor will have diminished by then. But in the here and now, it does rob us of that next-gen thrill. You can bet your ass Sony will be showing games during their reveal that will be build around their own Nanite-like tech. Which is why Sony's reveal will very likely be a lot more exciting than MS's showcases of "smart delivery" games.   

And for the 100th time: MS cross-gen strategy is only for a limited time window. That strategy will probably already over and forgotten when the first AAA games "built by ground up" with Nanite and Lumen in mind will be released.

UE5 ain't available for developers yet, and developing AAA games takes years.

And ain't it a bit hasty to assume that Sony already has "their own Nanite-like tech" and that they had that soooo much earlier than Epic Games that they can reveal a lot of "true next-gen" games with that feature which you expect for launch or next year?