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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Presidential Election Thread

Hiku said:
KLXVER said:

If 0 people had died and he achieved world peace, people would still give him shit. He banned travel from China and Europe pretty early and he was xenophobic. He offered assistance to any state that asked for it. He cant send in people to make sure things are done right. I mean he did send in more police during the riots and people gave him shit. "They are kidnapping peaceful protesters!" lol Yeah, Im sure that molotov cocktail was just a simple bottle of peaceful soda...

"If millions of people died and he started world war 3, people would still defend him."

That's not a productive argument.
If you don't think he mismanaged Covid, especially compared to some other significantly less wealthy countries, fine.
If you don't think his comments on masks have unnecessarily put people at risk of exposing themselves and others to the virus, great.
Etc.

But many people don't agree, and hold him accountable for his words and actions.

That is true. Some people swear by him. There should be some middle ground. When a guy responsible for the lowest unemployment of Black, Latino and Asian people in the countrys history is called a racist on a daily basis, you know something is wrong. 

He could have done a better job with the virus, sure, but putting the blame solely on him doesnt seem like a very productive argument either.



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KLXVER said:

If 0 people had died and he achieved world peace, people would still give him shit. He banned travel from China and Europe pretty early and he was xenophobic. He offered assistance to any state that asked for it. He cant send in people to make sure things are done right. I mean he did send in more police during the riots and people gave him shit. "They are kidnapping peaceful protesters!" lol Yeah, Im sure that molotov cocktail was just a simple bottle of peaceful soda...

Hundreds of thousands of people still travelled between these regions and the US after the supposed "ban". It wasn't what you seem to think it was.



sundin13 said:
KLXVER said:

If 0 people had died and he achieved world peace, people would still give him shit. He banned travel from China and Europe pretty early and he was xenophobic. He offered assistance to any state that asked for it. He cant send in people to make sure things are done right. I mean he did send in more police during the riots and people gave him shit. "They are kidnapping peaceful protesters!" lol Yeah, Im sure that molotov cocktail was just a simple bottle of peaceful soda...

Hundreds of thousands of people still travelled between these regions and the US after the supposed "ban". It wasn't what you seem to think it was.

Even Americans who had travelled to these countries werent allowed back into the US without being quarantined and tested.  



KLXVER said:
sundin13 said:

Hundreds of thousands of people still travelled between these regions and the US after the supposed "ban". It wasn't what you seem to think it was.

Even Americans who had travelled to these countries werent allowed back into the US without being quarantined and tested.  

"Many passengers arriving from China within the past two months said they experienced lax screening procedures at U.S. airports. Some travelers said they had their temperatures taken and filled out health forms, but were not intensely questioned and were never contacted again, the Times reported.

Others said they were told to self-quarantine for 14 days and received two reminder text messages but received no further follow-up from the CDC or local health officials."

https://www.foxnews.com/us/coronavirus-china-us-flights-430000-people


You seem to be heavily overplaying this idea that all of these Americans were heavily quarantined and tested upon re-entry to the country. They largely weren't, and the handling of travel was certainly one of the things that Trump deserves to be criticized for. 



KLXVER said:
Runa216 said:

His actions and attitudes have directly resulted in this pandemic not being taken seriously by NEARLY enough people, subsequently resulting in 200,000+ deaths. He deserves to die. His existence is making the world a worse and more dangerous place. 

I don't wish ill on people who don't rightly deserve it. For example, I don't wish you to get sick and die because you've not done anything to warrant that (Though you have pushed some pretty damaging and backwards-thinking ideals). But Trump? Trump is getting karma'd right down the throat. Fuck him.

The fact that you dont see the irony is kinda comical. "Accept everyone...or else you can die and go to hell" right? lol

How many times do I have to explain to people like you: the real world doesn't work in binary states. It's not a matter of 'tolerate everything or tolerate nothing'. you can 'tolerate' people being gay, but that is NOT the same as permission for them to be pedophilic. I know it's an extreme example, but it gets the point across very well. There's a world of difference between 'being conservative' (which in and of itself is fine), and being Donald Trump (who pushes conspiracy theories, and through his position of power has done real damage to the world around him.) 

The only way your narrative works is if there's no realistic middle ground. cut that out. That's not how the real world works. I, as a progressive, believe in women's rights, the BLM movement, Anti-fascism, the LGBT+ community, and all that other progressive nonsense. That does not mean I believe in some weird world where women dominate and men are all pets, or that ONLY black lives matter, or that I support the more extreme variants on Antifa, or that the most skewed and dangerous sexualities (like pedo or necro) are okay. You can't just turn around and act like being tolerant of religion or gender or sexuality or race is the same as saying 'everything is permitted, and nothing any of these minorities do is ever wrong'. 

You've got the whole world wrong and you're doing both yourself and the discussion a disservice by reducing the entire argument to all or nothing binary. Cut that out. Seriously. 



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KLXVER said:
Hiku said:

"If millions of people died and he started world war 3, people would still defend him."

That's not a productive argument.
If you don't think he mismanaged Covid, especially compared to some other significantly less wealthy countries, fine.
If you don't think his comments on masks have unnecessarily put people at risk of exposing themselves and others to the virus, great.
Etc.

But many people don't agree, and hold him accountable for his words and actions.

That is true. Some people swear by him. There should be some middle ground. When a guy responsible for the lowest unemployment of Black, Latino and Asian people in the countrys history is called a racist on a daily basis, you know something is wrong. 

He could have done a better job with the virus, sure, but putting the blame solely on him doesnt seem like a very productive argument either.

How is he responsible for the lowest unemployment of blacks, latinos, asians, w/e?

As in, what policies did he specifically put in place to effectuate that? 

You can't argue that he is responsible for the unemployment figure simply because it happened during his presidency, and then simultaneously that he does not bear responsibility for things that have happened.

In terms of unemployment what we see is a steady rate of decline from the end of the Obama era continuing into the Trump Era until 2019.

From Jan 2013-14, unemployment dropped 1.3%. From January 2014 to 15, unemployment fell by .9%. To 2016, another .2%. From 2017 to 2018, .6%. From 2018 to 2019 it dropped .1%. 

https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/civilian-unemployment-rate.htm

The pattern is the same among black people. 

https://www.epi.org/blog/before-the-state-of-the-union-a-fact-check-on-black-unemployment/

So, the pattern of unemployment continued basically unchanged as we transitioned from Obama to Trump. I'm not sure why we would say Trump is responsible for that.

But I can blame him for actions specifically taken that exacerbated the Covid crisis. For example, lying to the American people about the severity of the disease. Saying to woodward it was very deadly, and then telling the American people repeatedly it was not a threat. Constantly contradicting top scientists and sowing confusion, holding rallies with utter disregard for public safety, criticizing reporters for wearing masks saying it was to be "politically correct", saying Covid would go away like a miracle, and mocking Biden for wearing masks publicly up to the day before he contracted the virus.

I have no means to see into an alternate future, but it seems pretty fair to say these were objectively stupid things, and he deserves the scorn for them.



Runa216 said:
KLXVER said:

The fact that you dont see the irony is kinda comical. "Accept everyone...or else you can die and go to hell" right? lol

How many times do I have to explain to people like you: the real world doesn't work in binary states. It's not a matter of 'tolerate everything or tolerate nothing'. you can 'tolerate' people being gay, but that is NOT the same as permission for them to be pedophilic. I know it's an extreme example, but it gets the point across very well. There's a world of difference between 'being conservative' (which in and of itself is fine), and being Donald Trump (who pushes conspiracy theories, and through his position of power has done real damage to the world around him.) 

The only way your narrative works is if there's no realistic middle ground. cut that out. That's not how the real world works. I, as a progressive, believe in women's rights, the BLM movement, Anti-fascism, the LGBT+ community, and all that other progressive nonsense. That does not mean I believe in some weird world where women dominate and men are all pets, or that ONLY black lives matter, or that I support the more extreme variants on Antifa, or that the most skewed and dangerous sexualities (like pedo or necro) are okay. You can't just turn around and act like being tolerant of religion or gender or sexuality or race is the same as saying 'everything is permitted, and nothing any of these minorities do is ever wrong'. 

You've got the whole world wrong and you're doing both yourself and the discussion a disservice by reducing the entire argument to all or nothing binary. Cut that out. Seriously. 

Well maybe if you said that once in a while, it would be easier to look at you as a person and not some liberal robot. Maybe criticize BLM and Antifa when they are burning down cities and looting. And not shifting the blame away from them. I support equality for all races and genders. I support the LGBTQ community and I think feminism is fine, but I will absolutely call them out when they cross the line. Lines like bullying people who doesnt see everything 100% their way. Like J.K. Rowling. She has an opinion and people should either accept that or try to educate her if they think she is wrong. Not cancel her and call her horrific names. Im never solely on one side. Although it may seem like it here since Im mostly talking to people who doesnt agree with me on many things.

Well at least you did show me another side of you now, so that is appreciated.



JWeinCom said:
KLXVER said:

That is true. Some people swear by him. There should be some middle ground. When a guy responsible for the lowest unemployment of Black, Latino and Asian people in the countrys history is called a racist on a daily basis, you know something is wrong. 

He could have done a better job with the virus, sure, but putting the blame solely on him doesnt seem like a very productive argument either.

How is he responsible for the lowest unemployment of blacks, latinos, asians, w/e?

As in, what policies did he specifically put in place to effectuate that? 

You can't argue that he is responsible for the unemployment figure simply because it happened during his presidency, and then simultaneously that he does not bear responsibility for things that have happened.

In terms of unemployment what we see is a steady rate of decline from the end of the Obama era continuing into the Trump Era until 2019.

From Jan 2013-14, unemployment dropped 1.3%. From January 2014 to 15, unemployment fell by .9%. To 2016, another .2%. From 2017 to 2018, .6%. From 2018 to 2019 it dropped .1%. 

https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/civilian-unemployment-rate.htm

The pattern is the same among black people. 

https://www.epi.org/blog/before-the-state-of-the-union-a-fact-check-on-black-unemployment/

So, the pattern of unemployment continued basically unchanged as we transitioned from Obama to Trump. I'm not sure why we would say Trump is responsible for that.

But I can blame him for actions specifically taken that exacerbated the Covid crisis. For example, lying to the American people about the severity of the disease. Saying to woodward it was very deadly, and then telling the American people repeatedly it was not a threat. Constantly contradicting top scientists and sowing confusion, holding rallies with utter disregard for public safety, criticizing reporters for wearing masks saying it was to be "politically correct", saying Covid would go away like a miracle, and mocking Biden for wearing masks publicly up to the day before he contracted the virus.

I have no means to see into an alternate future, but it seems pretty fair to say these were objectively stupid things, and he deserves the scorn for them.

Also, holding unemployment numbers up as as the end all be all of racism is kind of ridiculous. The wealthy will always be more than happy to exploit cheap labor. We don't hold up countries with terrible employment practices, child labor and sweatshops as the pinnacle of equality because all of these people have jobs. We need to look at were the benefits of prosperity are actually going. If these businesses are booming, but their workers aren't seeing pay increases and improved working conditions, that isn't an economic state to be proud of and unemployment numbers are unable to speak to that. 

Many of the failings of the American employment system have been ignored or compounded by Trump, so while many people have jobs (or had jobs, with the pandemic) we should understand that there is still a long ways to go before reaching a just economic system.



Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

Unless those undecided aren't paying attention at all, in which case they may get a bad taste for Trump, they'll see it's something the media has brought up again though he's already clarified it. If you're someone who thinks the candidates need to constantly be asked the same thing over and over, then your just asking for poor results. The more questions you don't repeat when properly answered, the more questions you can get out, which is much more useful if you actually care about what the candidates are planning. If all you want are gotcha moments, then sure, ask, rinse, and repeat.

The way the question was asked was like how it was spun last time when he properly explained it. Anyone who takes any time at all will see it legitimately fits Trumps fake news narrative, and I'd bet Trumps people assume if you're not someone who's willing to be open and do a little research, you're the kind of person who will likely side with Biden anyway. People don't only care about what was said on national TV as you point out, that most of the media is running the supremacy story? Why? To further explain why it's a bad thing to those undecided voters. If those undecided voters only pay attention to that anyway, they were going to get spin from the media afterwards regardless. If they're not locked into the msm bubble, they'll see Trumps already gone against this and that the media is just after him for it again for no legitimate reason.

Trump has 3 debates, and he knows he doesn't need to cater to the undecided the entire time. He got away with the same thing with Hillary, though I do think he needs to perform better this time overall. It was also seen as though Hillary stomped Trump in the first debate, but by the last debate he clearly had made up for it. If he's doing what he did last time like I think he might, the next debate will be catered more to the undecided, and the final will be catered majority to the undecided. Trumps doing the checkbox thing and he got at least some of what he wanted in the first debate. He'll move on to the rest of the checklist for the rest of the debates unless he's not strategizing at all, which is quite unlikely. He's partially winging it as Trump does, which explains some of his poorer responses, but there looks to be an underlying strategy here. Whether there truly is or isn't, and whether it works or not by the end, we'll see.

The thing is Trump has many different answers to this question that can be played multiple times. Since he never stick to one concise statement it will just show him trying to play the middle.  The thing is when giving the opportunity he not only did not condemn them but he also have that statement "Standby".  That will be the slogan used countless times especially since he has told him followers to go to polls looking for suspicious people and other nonsense.  As political strategy goes, he doesn't have to convince his base, playing to just his base does not get him reelected.  We can argue this point but lets see how things shake out in the next few weeks.  After the debate no polls changed so that was a wash but for Biden any wash is great.  Now that Trump has CORVID, there will be no 3 debates so that was fortunate for the President in my opinion.

Well "standby" in general just means be ready. If Trump told the military to stand by, after mentioning some other nation was the threat, it would clearly mean just be prepared to defend the country. That in no way means be aggressive and cause violence, it means only be violent if we're attacked. His Proud Boys statement at the debate meant the same thing. If you want to think it meant go cause trouble, then I think you don't understand the language all that well, especially Trumps use of it here, or I'd guess you're being dishonest. (You in general, not you in particular fyi). While that could mean if the radical left caused violence, the right could fight back, I wouldn't see the problem there either. The President isn't going to tell the people, 'if you get attacked or feel the need to defend yourself, don't resort to violence, just take a beating and die if you have to'. Imagine if he gave that order to the troops. The right to defend yourself is a big deal period, especially in America.

The covid thing could be really detrimental to Trumps campaign, if it hits him really hard. His rallies will be over for good, no more debates, and the media will run covid all day long and tie it to Trumps handling of it and his illness now and it'll hurt his campaign "bigly". Also, if he's somehow faking it as some people are conspiracy theorizing (unlikely, but maybe), it could very well be because his campaign thinks they're screwed, and this would be the perfect excuse as to why they end up losing the election. Trump definitely would want a legit reasonable excuse for why he lost. He won't wanna be seen as whining and making up some bogus claim if it came to that. 'I lost because China gave me covid'. I could totally see it if it came to pass. Would that be the truth though?

Now if he's really got it, or faking it, this could also work heavily in his favor as well. If he's well soon, he could still have enough rallies, but will they still have the debates? Would they push the dates back a bit if needed? Will Biden back out? Would Trump use that against Biden? One thing that seems to be agreed on by both sides, is Trump faltered in the covid part of the debate, and may not be able to do much better going forward. Well what if Trump get's covid and it's no big deal for him? The left loves to point out that whites shouldn't talk about racism because they aren't black, hispanic, etc, or men shouldn't talk about woman's rights because they aren't female, etc. Well how's the left and Biden going to combat Trump and covid if Trump easily beats it, considering he'll now have first hand knowledge due to being a victim of it? No doubt Trump would also use this to say he was mostly right about how this wasn't near as deadly as suggested and that the lockdown's were way to harsh and a handled poorly by the Dem states and cities. The media likes to say he's old and unhealthy, so if he easily beats it, he can seemingly prove them wrong. The media and Dems will have a hard time justifying the lock down's if Trump walks away mostly unscathed by covid. Trump could even blame his initial debate performance on covid if they think he may have had it then.

I could go on, because there's so many plays that could be made with this. Hopefully he and his wife pull through and are able to finish the election. Thank God Biden didn't test positive. That would've opened up a whole nother can of worms.

Last edited by EricHiggin - on 02 October 2020

sundin13 said:
JWeinCom said:

How is he responsible for the lowest unemployment of blacks, latinos, asians, w/e?

As in, what policies did he specifically put in place to effectuate that? 

You can't argue that he is responsible for the unemployment figure simply because it happened during his presidency, and then simultaneously that he does not bear responsibility for things that have happened.

In terms of unemployment what we see is a steady rate of decline from the end of the Obama era continuing into the Trump Era until 2019.

From Jan 2013-14, unemployment dropped 1.3%. From January 2014 to 15, unemployment fell by .9%. To 2016, another .2%. From 2017 to 2018, .6%. From 2018 to 2019 it dropped .1%. 

https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/civilian-unemployment-rate.htm

The pattern is the same among black people. 

https://www.epi.org/blog/before-the-state-of-the-union-a-fact-check-on-black-unemployment/

So, the pattern of unemployment continued basically unchanged as we transitioned from Obama to Trump. I'm not sure why we would say Trump is responsible for that.

But I can blame him for actions specifically taken that exacerbated the Covid crisis. For example, lying to the American people about the severity of the disease. Saying to woodward it was very deadly, and then telling the American people repeatedly it was not a threat. Constantly contradicting top scientists and sowing confusion, holding rallies with utter disregard for public safety, criticizing reporters for wearing masks saying it was to be "politically correct", saying Covid would go away like a miracle, and mocking Biden for wearing masks publicly up to the day before he contracted the virus.

I have no means to see into an alternate future, but it seems pretty fair to say these were objectively stupid things, and he deserves the scorn for them.

Also, holding unemployment numbers up as as the end all be all of racism is kind of ridiculous. The wealthy will always be more than happy to exploit cheap labor. We don't hold up countries with terrible employment practices, child labor and sweatshops as the pinnacle of equality because all of these people have jobs. We need to look at were the benefits of prosperity are actually going. If these businesses are booming, but their workers aren't seeing pay increases and improved working conditions, that isn't an economic state to be proud of and unemployment numbers are unable to speak to that. 

Many of the failings of the American employment system have been ignored or compounded by Trump, so while many people have jobs (or had jobs, with the pandemic) we should understand that there is still a long ways to go before reaching a just economic system.

Yeah. That's a separate flaw, but was just trying to address one at a time. Even if the unemployment rate dropped, that would just prove that Trump did not create policies that were disproportionately disadvantageous to minorities. Which doesn't say anything about whether or not he's racist.