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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Presidential Election Thread

PAOerfulone said:
JWeinCom said:

Nothing much going on in the polls, but in terms of fundraising, it doesn't look good for Trump.

Trump has withdrawn TV ads in all but three states, Georgia, Florida, and Arizona.

The thing about this is that, these states don't win for Trump. Even if Trump wins in these three, he still needs North Carolina, Ohio, and then either Pennsylvania or Wisconsin. He's down in the last two by a significant margin, and the other two are tossups with a slight Biden advantage. One of the proposed reason for Hillary's loss in 2016 is that she took the rust belt for granted and didn't spend much money there. Now we see the opposite, at least in terms of ads. And, perhaps the Trump campaign is overconfident in states like Texas and Ohio which seem safe.

Of course, neither TV ads nor fundraising are the be all end all, which we found out in 2016. But, Trump is also decreasing internet spending. He could be banking on his supporters doing the work for him (and maybe some foreign bots will help) by posting memes, fake news, and maybe some real news on Facebook. Has the public gotten more savvy since then? Have social media companies gotten better at filtering out disinformation? We'll see.

More of an issue though is just how badly Trump is getting outfundraised. Biden raised 250 million dollars or so in the past week. This is compared to Biden raising about 330 million in August, which blew Trump out of the water. This may be an indication that Biden supporters may be more enthusiastic. And you can say that voters aren't actually enthusiastic for Biden, but are enthusiastically anti-Trump, but that doesn't really matter when the ballots are counted.

Traditionally, this is the point where things are tightening up. Will that happen this time? Trump is such a polarizing candidate, and this election has dominated the news in a way that's unusual even for presidential candidates. At this point, it's hard to imagine that voters don't have enough information about the candidates to decide.

If anything I stated below is incorrect, feel free to correct:

Assuming Trump is able to win the first 5 states while hanging on to the ones he has now, that would bring his electoral count to 259, while Biden's would be at 249 if he hung on to all the other states he leads in, not counting Pennsylvania or Wisconsin.

And even if it gets to that scenario, Trump would need to focus all his efforts on Pennsylvania to secure that state's 20 votes, bringing his total to 279 and winning reelection. If he were to get Wisconsin, and Biden gets Pennsylvania, then we'd have an unprecedented 269-269 tie. If that were to happen, then the tiebreaker would be decided by the House of Representatives, the majority of which is currently Democrat. Which would all but guarantee Biden winning the tiebreaker and the presidency. All the while, the Vice Presidency would be decided by the Senate, which is mostly Republican at the moment. If it were to stay that way, then Pence would likely remain VP, leading to a verrrrrry weird term of Biden-Pence.

Mostly right but wrong on one very important point.

If Trump wins those five states plus Wisconsin, and Biden holds his lead in Pennsylvania, then that would be 268-268. But, the more likely scenario would be Biden keeping Wisconsin and losing Pennsylvania, where his lead is slightly smaller (why I don't know). Where Trump would win. But, it's close enough that either scenario would happen.

But, we still have the two teensy districts, ME-2nd and NE-2nd. Those are both interesting districts, because Nebraska is a very red state, but the 2nd district leans more democratic. Trump won it by 2 points in 2016 compared to 25 statewide. ME-2 is the opposite, a red leaning district in a generally blue state. Trump won ME-2 by a small margin despite losing the state, I don't know exactly how much.

So, in that red Penn blue Wis scenario, either candidate can score a clean victory by taking those two toss up districts. Biden is currently leading in both, but since they're so small there's not a ton of polling. Nebraska 2 is expected to go to Biden, so there's even less than in Maine-2 which is expected to be competitive. Biden's up by 2.5 and 1% in those districts respectively.

If they split it though... Trump wins. That's where you're wrong.

While the House does wind up picking the election, they don't vote individually, they vote by state delegation. Which is the electoral college on steroids. Alaska's congressmen have equal power to California's, which is obviously fucked (although hey, that's how the senate works). Either candidate would need to win 26 delegations. Currently republicans control 26 delegations, which could change in the election but probably won't.

So... assuming they all vote on party lines, then Trump wins. Even if they vote according to the popular vote of their states, then Trump wins. There's all sorts of other legal shenanigans that can play out, but for simplicity's sake, a tie is a Trump victory.   

It's an unlikely scenario, but it could happen. Also, keep in mind that if a decisive state is within .5% that triggers a recount. So it's possible that we'd have a lot of legal challenges going on. It'd be a pretty bad scenario. Whichever way it went, each side would accuse the other or stealing the election (which may happen anyway, but in that case there may be a valid point on each side).



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Slimebeast said:
JWeinCom said:

In terms of polling, results are mostly the same with some interesting notes.

One poll has Biden up by 5 in Virginia. If this result is accurate it wouldn't be terrible, as that's about what Hillary won by in 2016, but it could indicate a tightening race. That being said, it's only one result by an average pollster. Shouldn't be read into too much, but few polls have been conducted in Virginia, so beggars can't be choosers.

In Iowa one top pollster (Monmouth) has Trump up by 3, while another has Biden up by 3. This indicates that the race is probably a true toss-up, which is not a good sign for Trump in a state he won by about 9 points.

Speaking of states he won by about 9 points, Quinnipac has Biden up by 1 in Ohio. That's not a statistically significant lead, but this shows that Ohio, like Iowa has shifted way in favor of Biden. Ohio itself is a tossup, and losing it would effectively lose the election for Trump. Moreover, if Ohio is close, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota are pretty much a lock, and the election is probably over. At the very least, Trump needs Pennsylvania, and probably Wisconsin too.

In those other key states, it's same old same old. Biden maintains about a 5% lead in Pennsylvania which is solid, but polls being off by 5% is not unheard of. His lead is 6.6% in Wisconsin. If the number doesn't change, then even with a polling error similar to 2016 in Wisconsin, Biden would win. In Michigan the lead is 7%, although one recent poll (not a highly rated one) actually shows Trump with a lead. In Minnesota, where voters have very good genes according to Trump, Biden's lead seems pretty much entirely safe as he's up by about 9.

Arizona is a bit all over the place. ABC News shows Trump ahead by 1, NY Times has Biden ahead by 9, and Monmouth has Biden by 1. So, a lot of disagreement among top polls. We'll see how the McCain family induction changes things. Arizona is not a must win for Biden, but it is a security blanket. If Biden loses Pennsylvania and Florida, Arizona gets him within one electoral vote which he'd have to pick up in Nebraska or Maine.

Other plan B states include Georgia, which NY Times has as even, while Monmouth has a 3-4 point advantage for Trump. Biden has a chance there. He has a better chance in North Carolina where he's actually up by 1 on average. If Biden wins either of these states and either flips either Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, or Arizona, then there is no path to victory for Trump.

Of course it may all come down to Florida, America's penis. Here the recent news is not great for Biden with ABC News showing Trump up by 4. This contrasts with Monmouth that had Biden up by 4. Interestingly, ABC News has Biden up by 1 among registered voters. So, they are predicting higher turnout among pro-Trump demographics. We'll see how that plays out.


Still looks like Biden should win in a relatively convincing fashion. The most vulnerable must win state that Biden is currently leading in is Pennsylvania, and even there he has a stable lead. In comparison, Biden is ahead in 5 Trump must wins (NC, PA, WI, AZ, FL), within a point in two (OH, GA), and within 3 in one (Texas). With all that you'd think Biden's in a comfortable position, but this is 2020, and who the fuck can predict anything anymore.

But you can't trust the polls. Remember 2016? Hillary lead nearly every poll and yet Trump shocked the nation and won.

How long will this myth be perpetuated?

By the time of the election, Hillary was only leading nationally by about 2-3%. And guess what, that's also by how much she won the popular vote. And bar one, all of the swing states that Trump won he was also very competitive or even straight-up leading in those states

Biden's lead over Trump is very different to the one of Hillary had over Trump. Not only is it larger in general, Trump is being decisively beaten in a number of states he carried 4 years ago.

Also, trump retracting ads from swing states is never a good sign: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l5WSKGlbVg

Last edited by Bofferbrauer2 - on 26 September 2020

Bofferbrauer2 said:
Slimebeast said:

But you can't trust the polls. Remember 2016? Hillary lead nearly every poll and yet Trump shocked the nation and won.

How long will this myth be perpetuated?

By the time of the election, Hillary was only leading nationally by about 2-3%. And guess what, that's also by how much she won the popular vote. And bar one, all of the swing states that Trump won he was also very competitive or even straight-up leading in those states

Biden's lead over Trump is very different to the one of Hillary had over Trump. Not only is it larger in general, Trump is being decisively beaten in a number of states he carried 4 years ago.

Also, trump retracting ads from swing states is never a good sign: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l5WSKGlbVg

People are very results oriented. They tend to focus on correct and incorrect rather than how correct one was or why. 

It's kind of like a coworker who used to argue that Eli Manning was better than Peyton Manning because he had more superbowl wins (before Peyton won his second which was actually won despite his terrible play).

The polls in Texas actually were further off than the polls in Pennsylvania. Yet, nobody really cared because the end result was correct. 

The polling data was undeniably wrong in the rust belt in 2016, but that doesn't mean polls in 2020 become completely worthless. We have to look at why they were wrong. And we have a pretty good idea. Lots of undecided voters, bad last minute news for Clinton, higher turnout among non-college educated whites, and good old fashioned margin of error. Looking at these factors we can tell that a similar error in 2020 is pretty unlikely, since pollsters have adjusted their models, Trump is not winning by as much among whites without degrees, and voters seem much more likely to have locked in their votes. 

To the extent that polling numbers are off, it's more likely to be due to mail in voting. That's not to imply anything nefarious will go on, but it could mean turnout numbers will be wrong. This could be in the favor of Biden if greater awareness, use, and accessibility of mail in ballots leads to more voters. It could also cut the other way. If a large number of mail in votes are not counted due to being filled out or mailed improperly, it could help Trump.

There is also the issue of ballots being counted in time. Democrats are pushing to extend the amount of time (which seems logical in light of a global pandemic) whereas Republicans are trying to deny that. 



Only one new set of polls today, but it's a big one.
Washingtonpost (rated A+) released a polls showing, under two different turnout models, a 6 or 10 point lead for Biden. 6 with third parties, 10 without it.

That's pretty substantial, and while some polls have showed that kind of a lead, none of them have been from sources this big. Also worth noting is that when third parties are incorporated, 99% of voters had picked a candidate. That's insane. This time last year around 10% of voters were still undecided. If this is accurate, then the race is less volatile, as voters would have to actually switch over. Maybe some Jorgenson voters could be swayed over, (third parties tend to fizzle as the election comes closer), but winning Biden voters over seems unlikely at this point.

Top rated pollsters are disagreeing though, not so much on the national level but on a state level. What is interesting is the difference between registered voter polls and likely voters polls. Some polls seem to be predicting that Trump will have significantly higher turnout that Biden. For instance, Monmouth's last poll of Florida has Biden at a 1% lead among registered voters but at a 4% deficit among likely voters. Wapo on the other hand has a 5% lead among registered voters and a 4% lead among likely voters. Marist shows a 1% lead for Trump among registered voters, but shows it even among likely voters.

Depending on how each candidate can do at getting their base out to the ballot box, or the mailbox as the case may be, can be the difference between a very close race, and a landslide victory. And... this is probably where money comes in.

In today's environment, I don't think money is going to change the minds of voters. If you put me in a room and showed me Trump ads for 24 straight hours, I would not vote for Trump. I'm sure most of his supporters would say the same in reverse. But, could ads convince someone who supported a candidate but not enough to get off of their ass to actually get off of their ass? Yeah. I think they could.

Bottom line though is that while those who follow politics have been saying for months the race would tighten up... that doesn't seem to be happening. And, the election isn't coming in a month, the election is happening right now, with ballots already being mailed in. If the race is actually this close on election day, then even assuming that the national results are as far off as 2016, Biden wins the national vote by 3 times more than Hillary does. It's hard to see that happening without the states Trump won by less than 1% flipping, which would lead to a loss.



PAOerfulone said:
When is the 1st Presidential Debate supposed to be?

I will try to catch it live although I'm a few hours ahead, I'm really curious to see the debate of the ancient elderly. Gosh, US deserved something better than this. 



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Sienna/NYTimes comes to a similar conclusion as Washington Post, and has Biden at an 8 point lead. The times however shows much fewer undecided voters, and much less third party support. That would give Trump more of an ability to catch up.

In statewide polls, TIPP has Biden up by 5 in Pennsylvania, slightly above other polls. Marist has him up by 10 in Wisconsin, and 8 in Michigan. If true, no bueno for Trump.

The center for American Greatness has Biden up by 1 in Nevada. I'll let you decide for yourselves how much credence you want to give them.

Biden continues to do well in the states that were within 1% in 2016 and will flip the election if Biden wins them and in the national average.

Also, a poll conducted in California shows that Biden is up by 34% there. So, if anyone thought that Trump would win in California... probably not.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 28 September 2020

Bofferbrauer2 said:
Slimebeast said:

But you can't trust the polls. Remember 2016? Hillary lead nearly every poll and yet Trump shocked the nation and won.

How long will this myth be perpetuated?

By the time of the election, Hillary was only leading nationally by about 2-3%. And guess what, that's also by how much she won the popular vote. And bar one, all of the swing states that Trump won he was also very competitive or even straight-up leading in those states

Biden's lead over Trump is very different to the one of Hillary had over Trump. Not only is it larger in general, Trump is being decisively beaten in a number of states he carried 4 years ago.

Also, trump retracting ads from swing states is never a good sign: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l5WSKGlbVg

About time someone else pointed this out. The polls at the tail end of the election had Trump very much within the margin of error in virtually all of the tossup states and Hillary's national lead dwindling to a 2-3 point lead, also within the margin of error which, SPOILER: she won the popular vote by.

Not so this time around. He's losing fairly comfortably in all the tossup states and by 7% to Biden this time around nationally. The current polls paint a VERY different picture to the ones at the end of the 2016 election, so all this "TROLOL, the polls were way wrong in 2016" diatribe is not only way off, it's comparing apples to oranges. I'd be somewhat shocked if Florida went Trump after he effectively crashed their hospital system with Covid cases, it was he who told them to continue their business in the middle of a pandemic after all. In fact, he said it affects virtually nobody.

Oh and in the latest Trump bombshell, his tax returns have finally been revealed. To no one's shock, he's a tax-evading fraud with years of losses.

Last edited by KManX89 - on 28 September 2020

I agree that the polling is different from 2016. The only factors that *might* give Trump an advantage are the ongoing pandemic (reportedly democrats are more cautious and might avoid going to the voting station) and the republicans trying to invalidate vote by mail (again, democrats are reported to use that more).



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KManX89 said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

How long will this myth be perpetuated?

By the time of the election, Hillary was only leading nationally by about 2-3%. And guess what, that's also by how much she won the popular vote. And bar one, all of the swing states that Trump won he was also very competitive or even straight-up leading in those states

Biden's lead over Trump is very different to the one of Hillary had over Trump. Not only is it larger in general, Trump is being decisively beaten in a number of states he carried 4 years ago.

Also, trump retracting ads from swing states is never a good sign: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l5WSKGlbVg

About time someone else pointed this out. The polls at the tail end of the election had Trump very much within the margin of error in virtually all of the tossup states and Hillary's national lead dwindling to a 2-3 point lead, also within the margin of error which, SPOILER: she won the popular vote by.

Not so this time around. He's losing fairly comfortably in all the tossup states and by 7% to Biden this time around nationally. The current polls paint a VERY different picture to the ones at the end of the 2016 election, so all this "TROLOL, the polls were way wrong in 2016" diatribe is not only way off, it's comparing apples to oranges. I'd be somewhat shocked if Florida went Trump after he effectively crashed their hospital system with Covid cases, it was he who told them to continue their business in the middle of a pandemic after all. In fact, he said it affects virtually nobody.

Oh and in the latest Trump bombshell, his tax returns have finally been revealed. To no one's shock, he's a tax-evading fraud with years of losses.

Lol, only $750 in taxes per year in 2016 and 2017.

On the other hand, $70k for hair salon expenses...

And he's saying he didn't release the tax returns for all this time because he's under audit, same excuse he used almost 4 years ago. He doesn't seem to understand that he's not helping his case with this. People are being investigated for roughly one year for a big tax offense, so imagine how colossal the tax evasion would need to be to be investigated 4 years straight...

Just to come back to the election itself, looks like it's increasingly likely that the democrats will also flip the senate.

While the Republicans will flip Alabama as was widely expected, they are losing several other states: Colorado, Maine, North Carolina and the special election in Arizona are all likely getting flipped over to Democrats, with Iowa, Georgia (the regular election, not the special) and Montana all still being in tossup territory. And while Montana and Georgia still titling towards Republicans, the same ain't true for Iowa anymore.

This would result in at best a 50-50 split for the Republicans, and at worst they could lose up to 6 states in total, which would be a catastrophic outcome for the GOP.

Last edited by Bofferbrauer2 - on 28 September 2020

@SpokenTruth : You can add Kamala Harris as Biden's VP pick in the OP. Looks a bit empty without it...

Here's a little résumée of what Trump did so far during his presidency:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX-DdOUlcqs&pp=wgIECgIIAQ==

Funny how things go there...

Edit: And this one here too, comparing his promises to his actions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jdH8ak294M

You're welcome!

Last edited by Bofferbrauer2 - on 28 September 2020