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Forums - Gaming Discussion - How long until a ps4 level $400 hybrid is possible?

For it to be a "PS4" hybrid, it you would not be able to use your physical games, and possibly digital too depending on how greedy Sony gets with it.

The PS4 is disc based, which is harder to put into portable format due to scratching disks and moving parts. They would have to Switch to carts or go digital only. I do not think Sony is going to explore this avenue. I believe they are going to keep plating the power race with MS and leave the Hybrid concept to Nintendo.



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Miyamotoo said:
Mnementh said:

Full compatibility is much more harder than "PS4-level" power. So for which one you ask?

Yeah, those are two totally different things, PS4 level of power will be possible of course in few years, but making PS4 hybrid (that basically means identical PS4 hardware in portable form factor in order to have compatibility with PS4 games) is probably not possible at all because PS4 APU is quite big and power hungry for portable form factor.

ps4 level power and affordable? i would say 5 years



Kristof81 said:

I'm pretty sure this will be possible using Tegra Xavier, scheduled for Q1 2018, so in few months (probably). With 512 cuda cores we're talking min GTX 750 performance, so very close to the base PS4, but without clocks, bandwidths etc it's hard to say.  I'm not sure about the cost though.

Xavier's TDP is in the 20-30W range, way too high for a hybrid console, which can stomach only up to 5W (give or take) without getting too hot or draining power too fast. Also, most of it's power comes from the Tensor cores, but Videogames don't make use of them (hence why Volta is a pure HPC card with no consumer models).

With some custom design, you can however probably reach about XBO power right now with a 14-10nm chip without consuming too much. But since such one would need to get designed first, it would still take about 2-3 years until it's release.

In 7nm, a PS4-level APU with about 5W TDP is possibly feasible if one looks what Raven Ridge can pull at 15W TDP, but I wouldn't bet on any earlier than this for a technological feasibility of a PS4 hybrid for less then 500$



Pinkie_pie said:
I think it's possible this year. Didn't people here think the switch would be as powerful as the xbox one or even the ps4?

Uh, no. It's not that simple. Cooling efforts needed for such power woud prevent it. Five years - maybe.



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Miyamotoo said:
vivster said:

I'm almost sure people still tried to claim that even after we knew that it was Tegra.

Well some people still didnt know what exactly Tegra is, how many GPU SMs andwhat exactly CPU Switch has. That thinking also comes from that Switch could have around 1TF power with FP16, offcourse that was assuming that Switch will work at full CPU/GPU clocks.

In any case, PS4 hybrid is not possible in near future and its big question if will be ever possible, because hardly PS4 APU could fit in handheld and in same time to have normal TDP and battery life.

The APU in the PS4 is already tiny. It will easily be possible, maybe even already with the next shrink. Though it might not be possible with an AMD APU any time soon, but rather an ARM SOC.



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quickrick said:
Miyamotoo said:

Yeah, those are two totally different things, PS4 level of power will be possible of course in few years, but making PS4 hybrid (that basically means identical PS4 hardware in portable form factor in order to have compatibility with PS4 games) is probably not possible at all because PS4 APU is quite big and power hungry for portable form factor.

ps4 level power and affordable? i would say 5 years

Around PS4 level of power hybrid will probably be posible around 5 years for $300-400. But PS4 level power is not same thing like PS4 hybrid.

 

 

Mnementh said: 
nemo37 said: 

I will begin by responding to the main article. I think it will be a few more years until we get an SOC from AMD powerful enough and power-effecient enough to fit into a device like Switch. Although AMD has made major leaps with the new Ryzen 5 mobile (albeit those are still to constrained to fit into a device the size of the Switch, but the point is that the technology is moving quite quickly). On a personal level, I would love to see a portable version of the Playstation 4 because, as portable gamer (and one with a PS4 but with little free time to actually use it much), it would give me access one of the best gaming libraries anywhere. I really hope Sony does eventually make it happen, even if it ends up being a bit more expensive than the Switch is now (I would certainly buy it day one); though of course they have to look to see whether a higher price would appeal to the mass market.

This is such a flawed comparison. Just because those particular games are not on the Switch (4 of which are exclusive to Sony and so would never appear on the Switch; I could just as easily point to Wolfenstein 2, Doom, BoTW, SMO etc. to make a similar flawed argument) does not mean that the Switch is not capable of running such games. As SegataSanshiro mentioned, the vast majority of games that are available on both platforms (Skyrim, LA Noire, FIFA 18, Minecraft; Dark Souls and Bayonetta 1 remain to be seen since they have not been released yet) perform better on Switch. Based on these titles, one can assume that even the games you mentioned would at worst run on par with or, likely, even better if ported over (obviously though we will never know for sure because KillZone, Uncharted, The Last of Us, GoW3 are all exclusives; GTA V would be another interesting point of comparison if it ever comes).

Well, while I generally agree with this line of argument, the PS3 complicates stuff a lot. PS3 had an unusual architecture, that made it hard to fully utilize it. The SPEs weren't used properly by every game. First-party games were much more able to tap into that kind of power. Switch on the other hand has a usual and good understand architecture, third-parties are much more able to utilize it to it's full potential. The Switch is more powerful than the PS3, but comparing multiplats isn't completely capturing the picture.

3rd party devs had huge problems with PS3 hardware 1st few years but later they utilise PS3 hardware much more. Also 1st party games on Switch will also use most of Switch hardware, most of PS3 1st party games are linear 720p/30fps games, while for instance MK8D is 1080p/60FPS game, ARMS is 1080p/60FPS game, Mario Odyssey is 900p/60FPS game, Zelda BotW 900p/30fps...and we talking only about 1st year Switch games, offcourse that later games will use more from Switch hardware. Thats why multiplatform games show quite difference in favour of Switch, when 720p PS3 game runing at 1080p on Switch for instance we talking about huge difrence in power, aside in most cases better visuals and more stable frame rate.

 

 

vivster said: 
Miyamotoo said: 

Well some people still didnt know what exactly Tegra is, how many GPU SMs andwhat exactly CPU Switch has. That thinking also comes from that Switch could have around 1TF power with FP16, offcourse that was assuming that Switch will work at full CPU/GPU clocks.

In any case, PS4 hybrid is not possible in near future and its big question if will be ever possible, because hardly PS4 APU could fit in handheld and in same time to have normal TDP and battery life.

The APU in the PS4 is already tiny. It will easily be possible, maybe even already with the next shrink. Though it might not be possible with an AMD APU any time soon, but rather an ARM SOC.


No it's not tiny, PS4 draws around TDP of 80W, so they would need to have TDP thats around 15W. But thats a problem, if you use ARM instead of AMD CPU thats in PS4 APU, PS4 games wont work on sucha device. There is reason why PS4 Pro and Xbox X used same CPUs that in base PS4 and in Xbox S, in other words, PS4 Hybrid need identical hardware that's in base PS4 and that's actually biggest problem for possible PS4 hybrid.

Last edited by Miyamotoo - on 26 January 2018

quickrick said:
Miyamotoo said:

Yeah, those are two totally different things, PS4 level of power will be possible of course in few years, but making PS4 hybrid (that basically means identical PS4 hardware in portable form factor in order to have compatibility with PS4 games) is probably not possible at all because PS4 APU is quite big and power hungry for portable form factor.

ps4 level power and affordable? i would say 5 years

Yeah, that level power, I agree, probably 5 years. Full PS4-compatibility? I dunno, I agree with Miyamotoo, that shrinking the ship never will happen. So in 10-15 years emulation, that might be possible.



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Miyamotoo said:
Mnementh said: 

Well, while I generally agree with this line of argument, the PS3 complicates stuff a lot. PS3 had an unusual architecture, that made it hard to fully utilize it. The SPEs weren't used properly by every game. First-party games were much more able to tap into that kind of power. Switch on the other hand has a usual and good understand architecture, third-parties are much more able to utilize it to it's full potential. The Switch is more powerful than the PS3, but comparing multiplats isn't completely capturing the picture.

3rd party devs had huge problems with PS3 hardware 1st few years but later they utilise PS3 hardware much more. Also 1st party games on Switch will also use most of Switch hardware, most of PS3 1st party games are linear 720p/30fps games, while for instance MK8D is 1080p/60FPS game, ARMS is 1080p/60FPS game, Mario Odyssey is 900p/60FPS game, Zelda BotW 900p/30fps...and we talking only about 1st year Switch games, offcourse that later games will use more from Switch hardware. Thats why multiplatform games show quite difference in favour of Switch, when 720p PS3 game runing at 1080p on Switch for instance we talking about huge difrence in power, aside in most cases better visuals and more stable frame rate.

Yeah, I agree Switch is more powerful. Only saying, the difference might look bigger in multiplat comparisons, because some potential was untapped in PS3. But no way this much.



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HoloDust said:
taus90 said:

in terms of graphical fidelity PS4 punches way above 7850 can achieve on windows PC. closed Architecture helps a lot. PSvita is the best example of this, I think it shared same hardware as iphone 5*  (PowerVR MP something) and vita was far superior to anything iphone produced graphically. And I wont suprised at all if next gaming hardware from Sony has custom sony SoC design based on AMD zen and vega to better support their rendering pipelines and library. 

The only issue will be game delivery, and storage, HD texture and assets require lots of space.. even PS3 exclusive were well above 24gb..

@ bolded Irrelevant really - that's about what PS4 is on the paper, when you look at architecture (though it's somewhere betwen GCN 1 and 2) and numbers - and we're comparing here one PC part with another PC part, not actual future PS4 portable SoC with PS4.

NOT irrelevant, because ps4 has GCN cores doesnt mean it can only run on GCN architecture, never in my 2 years of coding on PS4 had anybody told me and my team to stick to basic GCN architecture we havent even touched it, GCN is one of the option for people who wanna port their games with ease.. but writing own instruction set and frame work is far more rewarding and completely dwarf what we are able to achieve on PC with similar kind of hardware, the only complaint we have is that, of CPU grunt to save some frame budget. 

AGAIN Just in lay man term what a custom architecture can do is you have to look at PSvita with off the shelf SoC compared that to similar or more powerful hardware. Now I m not saying PS4 level of graphics is possible the difference will be similar to what PS3 and Psvita had. Which in my opinion will be far better than what switch is delivering right now.



What are people talking about here?

x86 and full compatibility? Won't happen to soon.

ARM with a comparably strong GPU? Might be not that far away.

PS4 power in docked mode? Again, that should be available in a not so far away future.

PS4 power while in mobile mode? There is a reason, actually multiple reasons, Switch clocks down. The same would apply for every other handheld.
Battery life, not only in terms of how long one charge lasts but the overall lifetime.
Cooling/getting rid of the heat. Switch actually has a built in fan. But the more power, the hotter it get's.
Cost. We are talking about SoC, RAM, FLASH-memory...

Yes, there are those nice things like die-shrinks. But a new node isn't always what it seems to be. Companies started 'cheating' about transistor- and gate sizes and other stuff some time ago. Two different 14nm manufacturing processes might be incomparable today. And new manufacturing steps don't always bring the expected results in cutting costs and improving energy efficiency.
Finally, new shrinks take longer and longer the closer we get to the limits. Not to talk about stuff like bus width and other 'little details'.

Tegra Xavier right now is intended for AI systems, deep learning, self driving cars and stuff like that. Mainly because you make more money there than with a gaming device or tablet and Xavier is relatively expensive in the beginning.

A Xavier device should come relatively close to PS4 power levels, at least in docked mode and would be possible to built very soon. But not at the 400,-$/€ pricepoint.