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Forums - Gaming Discussion - How long until a ps4 level $400 hybrid is possible?

I really hope they don't go this route, Sony would lose their identity if they copied Nintendo.



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won't happen, period.

by the time it could be technically feasible, the PS5 would probably be old news. Why would anyone bother with a "portable" ps4 at that point?



HoloDust said:
Kerotan said:

I appreciate cartoon graphics too. Ratchet and clank ps4 is better looking then any Nintendo game. It's pixar like. 

R&C on PS4 is inded better looking - but it's nowhere near animated movies.

And honestly, your persistence on PS360 having better gfx than Switch is...well hilarious at this point.

You are like opposite of notorious Zero999 who was WiiU evangelist back in days until he finally got permabanned.

Well that's another argument but I'm glad you recognise the graphical prowess of ratchet and clank. The way he said he thanks God Nintendo exists. You'd swear all Sony games look the same. Sony have better diversity then Nintendo and Microsoft in terms of games. 



Kerotan said:

Well that's another argument but I'm glad you recognise the graphical prowess of ratchet and clank. The way he said he thanks God Nintendo exists. You'd swear all Sony games look the same. Sony have better diversity then Nintendo and Microsoft in terms of games. 

Saying this as someone who'd take Zelda and Fable over anything Sony has to offer, I completely agree on that one - they are quite dedicated to bringing all sort of diverse experiences on their platform.

I'd even go as far as to say that they have the most faith in their 1st/2nd party output, given that they are quite comfortable with idea of making powerful enough console that can support all 3rd parties with no additional...let's say "gimmicks"...to have massive success.



HoloDust said:
Kerotan said:

Well that's another argument but I'm glad you recognise the graphical prowess of ratchet and clank. The way he said he thanks God Nintendo exists. You'd swear all Sony games look the same. Sony have better diversity then Nintendo and Microsoft in terms of games. 

Saying this as someone who'd take Zelda and Fable over anything Sony has to offer, I completely agree on that one - they are quite dedicated to bringing all sort of diverse experiences on their platform.

I'd even go as far as to say that they have the most faith in their 1st/2nd party output, given that they are quite comfortable with idea of making powerful enough console that can support all 3rd parties with no additional...let's say "gimmicks"...to have massive success.

In Nintendos defence they also put huge faith in first party. They allow their teams to try many experiments, many failed but many succeeded. It's really just Microsoft who have shown little faith in their software teams. 



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flashfire926 said:
d21lewis said:

*Sigh*

I know it's more powerful than those consoles but the experience it gives is similar--unless you can give me some examples. It darn sure isn't on par with the other current gen consoles.

The Xbox 360 and PS3 sure as hell cant run mariokart 8-deluxe at 1080p 60fps. 

Dark Souls Remastered will run 1080p 30fps with graphical improvements over the original, which was 720p

Fifa 18 for Switch is 1080p 60fps, with a sizeable graphical improvement over the last gen version, which also runs at 720p.

Yes, it obviously not as powerful PS4/XB1, but to say it is on merely on par with last gen consoles is plain wrong.

We all agree Switch is more powerful than 7th gen consoles, its still WAY BELOW the capabilities of X1. In practice I'd say its closer to 7th gen and that was his point as well.

We've seen it does a good job improving 7th gen games, we've been reminded Nintendo games are very well optimized, but it really struggles to run a game like Doom at a stable 30 fps, with much lower graphics settings, even at sub-HD.

Fifa indeed looks better on Switch. But this is an example of how it does a good job improving 7th gen games.

Meanwhile a more technically demanding game like LA Noire has dips, lowered graphics settings, and uses a dynamic resolution. Unless there have been some updates its arguably worse on Switch than PS3.

I'm sure Dark Souls on Switch will be a big improvement if its simply better optimized. Lets not pretend Dark Souls was a technical achievement for last gen.

 

So the Switch being compared to 7th gen is fair. And its also about 11-12 years apart...

He also compared 3DS to PS2/Gamecube/Xbox. But we know the 3DS has far less GPU capabilities and even at a much lower resolution. However, its closer to them than PS1/Saturn/N64.



Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Here's a thought. If they aimed for $399 with Switch it could probably be a lot closer to 8th gen consoles in capabilities. Those consoles are from 2013, so they're kind of old now.

From my understanding the GPU in Switch is already dated.



Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

JRPGfan said:

The 2700u is a 15-25w part and it can do 1.66 Tflops of compute performance with its GPU.
its on 14nm.

Flops is irrelevant.

JRPGfan said:

If they made it run all games at half resolution when as a handheld, and when docked full res. (like a switch) where it can draw like ~25watts,
they could probably make such a device today.

No.

HoloDust said:
Years - I don't think many people around here quite comprehend TDP limits of handheld devices, in addition to AMD's designs being quite inferior to nVidia's in that regard.

Indeed.
I mean... Ryzen is good. But not that Good.
And Polaris/Vega is rubbish as far as efficiency is concerned unless you start pushing lower clocks/voltages, but then you compromise performance.

nVidia has a sizable advantage.

haxxiy said:

Assuming it is made by TSMC and Nvidia, and it needs to be 6 times faster than the Switch, then:
10 nm TSMC = 2x shrink, available this year already
7 nm TSMC = 2.8x shrink, 2019-2020
5 nm TSMC = 4x shrink, maybe 2021?
3.5 nm TSMC = 8x shrink, maybe 2023-2024, coincidentally also TSMC's last planned node shrink.
Add one or two years since brand-new nodes are rarely used for consoles, but accounting for more efficient GPU architectures, I'd say between 5-8 years. Let the too optimistic be reminded, of course, that the Tegra X1 once had the hype it could maybe match current consoles, and look how it turned out.

Edit - added TSMC panel from the ISS conference as evidence for any of those not used to seeing these nodes and what they really mean. Note that the increased wafer cost means every mm2 of the chip (even though transistors / mm2 still decrease in price) will be more expensive that it is nowadays, further limiting how soon the "PS4 Switch" could launch:

 


Fabrication process is only part of the story. Those "nodes" are more or less just advertising fluff these days and aren't an accurate depiction of the geometry sizes that chips are being fabricated at.

With that... Modern GPU's are vastly more efficient than the old, slow, archaic GPU's in the Xbox One and Playstation 4, things like Delta Colour Compression, better Culling and so on has ensured that.

JRPGfan said:
RolStoppable said:

What is TDP?

think it was typical draw power.

basically these small chips are limited in how much power they can draw, which limits how fast they are.

No.

JRPGfan said:

Huh? The Switch is a hybrid device, and when docked it uses like 20-25watts too.
At those power ranges today (15-25w), AMD actually does have a chip that can do ~1.66 Tflops (not quite 1.84) but close.

TDP doesn't equal power consumption. - Anandtech pegged the Switch at less than 20w of power consumption.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11181/a-look-at-nintendo-switch-power-consumption/2

A chip with less flops can beat a chip with more flops, making all of your statements and comparisons... Completely and utterly useless, nonsensical and ultimately a waste of my time to read.


HoloDust said:

I wouldn't pay much attention to what AMD is claiming - go to GFX Bench and look up 2700u vs 7850 (which is around PS4's performance) - it's more than 2x slower.

AMD will get there eventually, but not just yet - and they need to have SoC that is capable of running PS4 games as they are, not with lower res/settings like with Switch where games are made from the start for both modes.

The 2700u is bandwidth starved, The GPU is easily far more efficient... But when you hold it back with dual-channel DDR4 memory @ 2400mhz, it's not going to be setting any records on fire.

I was hoping AMD might bring back Sideport or introduce a chunky eDRAM-like cache.

taus90 said:

in terms of graphical fidelity PS4 punches way above 7850 can achieve on windows PC.

Citation needed.

Mnementh said:
RolStoppable said:

What is TDP?

Thermal Design Power: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_design_power

Basically: how much heat can the unit produce and therefore which cooling I need.

Something to keep in mind is that TDP is rated differently between different manufacturers too.

So a 50w AMD TDP could equate to a 25w Intel TDP and so on as one manufacturer might rate theirs for the max TDP, whilst another will use an average-TDP approach. (As chips these days have varying clocks/voltages and thus power consumption.)

Bofferbrauer2 said:

Xavier's TDP is in the 20-30W range, way too high for a hybrid console, which can stomach only up to 5W (give or take) without getting too hot or draining power too fast.

Lower the clocks and voltages. It's not hard, Tegra X1 was pushed out as a 15w TDP part... It's definitely not that in the Switch.
Check the Anandtech link I provided earlier, you might be surprised by the power consumption numbers being thrown out.

Mr Puggsly said:

We all agree Switch is more powerful than 7th gen consoles, its still WAY BELOW the capabilities of X1. In practice I'd say its closer to 7th gen and that was his point as well.

The Switch is also capable of far more effects than the 7th gen consoles.
It's also far more efficient.

It's a step down from the Xbox One, for sure. But it's also a step up from the Xbox 360.

The games that are available now aren't exactly shining the Switch in the best light... The console is not even a year old at this point.
I mean, Xbox One games looked and performed like shit during that consoles first year on the market. (Well. They still do.)
Give it some time before you pass judgement, you might just be surprised at what a low powered Maxwell based chip can do, it's always going to be the ugly console of this console era though... But a portable 7th gen it is not.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Nah i dont think so



Pemalite said:
HoloDust said:

I wouldn't pay much attention to what AMD is claiming - go to GFX Bench and look up 2700u vs 7850 (which is around PS4's performance) - it's more than 2x slower.

AMD will get there eventually, but not just yet - and they need to have SoC that is capable of running PS4 games as they are, not with lower res/settings like with Switch where games are made from the start for both modes.

The 2700u is bandwidth starved, The GPU is easily far more efficient... But when you hold it back with dual-channel DDR4 memory @ 2400mhz, it's not going to be setting any records on fire.

I was hoping AMD might bring back Sideport or introduce a chunky eDRAM-like cache.

Most likely - on paper it has the juice - but than again, my bet would be it's with fully clocked GPU @25W, not at handheld TDP levels.

I always tend to go with iPad numbers running games when it comes to portable devices - 9-10W at most. Switch running BotW is 8.9W, so about that range. I guess handheld could be made that consumes 20W in similar situation, which would give it better performance, but I'm not so sure it's viable business desicion.