That wheel tilt function on the G5 is a bit puzzling. The idea was supposedly to allow for horizontal scrolling, but I've yet to see it work. It has arrow key functions, but that's not as useful. Still, it's a solid, comfortable, precise mouse.

Apple's mighty mouse actually does 360 degree scrolling with a tiny built in scroll ball, which also happens to be a lot more precise than a scroll wheel, but the casing favors form over good ergonomics. Not the most comfortable mouse even though I've been using one for years.

Many gaming cases also have the prerequisite LEDs, gaudy and functionless case moldings, paint jobs, etc. but the main function of a gaming case is really air flow and circulation capacity, or the ability to easily adapt liquid cooling solutions without case mods, under the assumption that any hardcore PC gamer is overclocking most, if not all components.

I suppose the assumption is that any case with good cooling/airflow designed for being used with overclocked components is automatically being used for gaming, and is by default, a "gamer case."

it is now i play only on consoles, only rts on pc but man i really miss the keyboard and mouse for fps

1) You keep coming back to the idea that it's not needed. So WHAT? You keep beating this dead horse of "MOUSEMOUSEMOUSEMOUSEMOUSEMOUSE" But I have never and continue to not argue against mouse. I have always ONLY been arguing against keyboard. If you want to continue this argument against me, then I recommend you think of using Mouse+keyboard vs Mouse+Analog. Just because you don't feel it's NEEDED doesn't make keyboard BETTER for not having it.
If one control allows me to do both at once, and the other control DOESN'T then the control that gives you the option is better. There isn't any point where it becomes an issue? Dude, that's just the game design, and it's probably BECAUSE the control option you're currently using sucks at it. I mean, seriously, do you think developers are going to TRY to make a situation where you realize just how frustratingly limited your controls are? What if, for instance, you need to run across a narrow ledge WHILE being shot at from multiple different sources off to the side from the ledge?

2) Dude, I do 99.999% of my aiming with wrist only, so there's no reason I can't rest my elbow on my knee. Then again, being a console player probably gives me the advantage over you in this feild, since I'm used to holding a controler in front of me for extended periods, while you're used to resting your arm on a table while you mouse. I might be wrong, but that's the best I can get at it. If you can't handle it, it's because you haven't practiced enough with it. Oh, do you see how that whole thing with "you just haven't practiced enough" can go both ways?

3) You keep taking things so far out of context. You know how FPS enthusiasts complain about 30 fps vs 60 fps? Some even complain about anything under 120 fps? the shutter of moving from forward to left or right is still there, and while I COULD correct for that, why should I? Analog means I don't need to because it's better.

1&4) You shot yourself in the foot on this one. I specifically said "WHILE shooting at one of the enemies" your example said "aim between them and strafe both" you said nothing about shooting at either of them. So that basically tells me that not having that "unnecessary" analog stick, means you have to choose between strafing perfectly and shooting perfectly, whereas a properly set up analog and mouse can do both.

4) It's a variable speed, yes, but it's not like the acceleration just wobbles all over the place. Your acceleration increases steadily as you move farther away from the center, it's really not that hard to match up the turning rate by accelerating the roll of your thumb. Admittedly, I'd need more practice before I could do it consistently myself on a 2 pixel ledge, but it's doable. Of course, since you only use 45 degree increments and think forward and strafe are the only REAL movements you need, it's not surprising that you wouldn't feel it's possible. Perhaps some practice might help with that.
I don't know if you've noticed, but your mouse does the same thing. If there wasn't any acceleration, then moving your mouse half an inch would always result in your mouse pointer moving on the screen the same amount each time, but if you move half an inch slowly, you'll generally wind up with your pointer moving only a few pixels, while moving the mouse quickly over that same half an inch will result in your pointer moving across the entire screen. Maybe you turn that off for FPS or something, but it's really not that hard to calculate the compensations for and it saves your arm a lot of strain.

5) Feels the same? What does that have to do with anything. And seriously, what point is there that you actually NEED to change your weapon in 10ms instead of 20ms? Is this one of those things where some enemies can only be hit by the blue gun and other guys only by the red gun? cause that's the only reason I see any need to change that rapidly. Otherwise your weapons should be adjusted based on situation. The situation is not going to change drastically enough for a weapon change in 10ms and not 20ms, I don't care what you're doing.
Not only that, but you're acting like pressing a single hotkey on the keyboard is the exact same as a single button on a controller, except they aren't. The controller has the buttons closer to your thumb/fingers, hence you don't need to move them as far, hence, given the same amount of practice on both, you can reach the buttons on the controller faster.

Hey, that's what PC gamers have grown up knowing, and the only other choice they've ever been shown is that if they want a left analog, they've got to trade in their mouse for a right analog with it. What choice do they have besides work with what they've got?

I made a nice little summation post right under the previous one if you cared to look at the broad picture but alright.

1) I did not mention the Mouse anywhere here. I think you are starting to imagine things. And you wan't a controller that allows you to walk at different speeds also? I really want to know what FPS you are having in mind for this elaborate range of speeds that you keep talking about.

2) It's called mouse acceleration and any game turns has an option for it and it's off by default. It hampers accuracy by being very unpredictable in hectic situations. I grew up on the goold old Nintendo consoles so it's not liek I haven't been playing console games at all, I've been holding a controller longer than I've had a KBD under my fingertips. With such amazing steady, untiring hands you should think of becoming a surgeon. The reason why I'm calling you out is because even our resident pro Halo player on campus can't pull off a straight line while looking around nonstop, if he can't I find it hard to believe you can.

3)Are you saying that with an analog you won't lose your target without aim correction when you strafe?

1/4) You do realize that 2nd guy is moving as well and won't just be hitting you from the smae angle right? Without being able to see both of them at the same time you will have a hard time dodging any attacks from the 2nd guy unless you know the terrain well enough. You would be strafing at 100% efficiency, but that will last for about a total of half a second before the 2nd guy moves and you are  strafing as inefficiently as before.

5)Onyxmeth brought up the issue of hotkeys feeling the same on the KBD thus causing him to mess up the hotkeys. Also the speed at which you change weapons is VERY important, honestly, did you look at the Half-Life video in this thread at ALL? You gotta switch to a splash weapon when you know the person is right around the corner, a little delay and you won't hit him. In those 10 ms he could easily have gotten out of the AOE damage of the grenade/rocket/whatever. Big impact. Also same goes for hitscan weapons. Sometimes you have that very brief window of opportunity and if you delay in switching to you weaponn you lose it.

You are also right, pressing a keyboard button is far far superior than pressing controller buttons. With the WASD I have a total of 7 keys (excluding WASD) which are right under my fingertips and I can press them the very moment my brain gives the command to do so. Even without practice you reach KBD buttons quicker than you would on a controller. Considering you are holding the controller somehow you use most of your fingers for that, and the only buttons you can quickly press are the ones right under your fingers, for the other ones you have to do a very slow shuffling and finger moving to reach (assuming other keys do exist, where are you gonna stick mor keys on a nunchuck). I really hope you don't mean the same thumb with which you are controlling your character because that would mean loss of control for the time it takes you to shift your thumb off the stick, to the button, and back. This is the biggest advantage of the KBD over an analog and it's what sets it above it considering the fact that all else is equal. Better, faster control over your game.

I hate the Mac mice and the mighty mouse doesn't really change my opinion even with it's 360 degree wheel. The whole one button design just doesn't work for me, it makes trying to left or right click feel akward since you don't actually know where you're clicking. Ironicaly enough, I could never get my PC to detect tilting the G5's wheel, but it works just fine on the Mac. Paired with the fact that it's a solid mouse, I try to bring the G5 or another mouse I have just to avoide working with Mac mice when I have to do graphical design type stuff.

1) I mentioned the mouse cause you keep mentioning it everywhere else. i just didn't feel like giving it it's own number, and your arguments have constantly shifted between "Mouse" and "we don't NEED 360 degrees of motion" and "cause I don't NEED it" isn't an argument about the one you use being better than the other. If anything, it implies that the one in question is better, not the one you have.

2) I've never had issue with it. Apparently that's one of those "practice" issue where you're better with whichever one you practice on.

3) Yes, certainly when compared to attempting the same thign with WASD keys

4) but in the meantime, the 1st guy is still getting shot, not just shooting at you unhindered, and if the second guy starts to get out of sight, you can always break off shooting at the first guy, but that's still more than you've accomplished with just strafing both and not shooting at all or shooting between them.

5) honestly, the quality of the video sucked. Furthermore, I think it's retarded to just instantly switch weapons anyway, I'm not using this as an argument against your hotkeys, I'm just saying that I perfer games where changing weapons actually requires some time involved, since, y'know you'd have to put one weapon away and take teh other weapon out in order to use it, rather than having them instantly dematerialize and rematerialize in your hand. Actually my real argument to yoru hotkeys issue is that there are analog controls that allow your fingers to rest on 9 buttons, which would still allow you plenty of hotkeys while getting rid of teh WASD setup.
Also, your turn for reading comprehension: I said that with the PS2 contorller alone,you can reach the dpad just as fast by rolling the thumb as you can shifting your fingers from WASD, provided you've put in as much practice. I dunno where you got teh idea that I was saying hotkeys are far better on the keyboard than what can be done on a controller designed around analog, unless you were running on the 10ms vs 20 ms comment, and even then, I was saying 20ms for TWO button presses on the Dpad in order to give more hotkey options.

Welcome to the FPS world where a majority of games are going to be kind of like this.

I was going to try and say something else, but this is discussion has become very redundant so there's no real point.

What I will say though that with the keyboard, you learn how to move your hand around the keys to do what you need to do. W-S-A-D doesn't have to be middle, ring, and index finger exclusive and you can shift your fingers over if you need to.

Keyboards aren't super complicated here, you just have to get over the first impression of seeing a 'wall' of keys.

1) I mentioned the aiming again solely because you started bring up aiming and other crap which you bitch about all the time. I call it irony.

2) There is a good reason pros turn it off, and believe me, they get more than enough "practice."

3)/facepalm Now you are implying that the reticule will magically be stuck on the guy nomatter in which way you mvoe without your interaction? I  believe what you are refering to is auto-aim here.

4) OK look, guy number 1 is in the middle of your scren and you are shooting at him, in both cases you are shooting at him, let's assume 120 degree vision. Let's put the 2nd guy at the very edge then. When they both shoot at you at the same time there is no middle ground for dodging while still keeping the first in your center. If you are dodging the 2nd guy and the 1st there doesn't exist a 100% strafe efficiency, the best angle you would be able to get on either one at the same time would be 75 degrees, a very very insignificant benefit in terms of degrees in general. With WASD you have 90 degrees on the one you are shooting and 60 degrees on the 2nd guys. A 15 degree difference is nothing, not with the hitboxes that player models have. In both cases a miss equates to one game step.

5) I read what you said abuot the PS2 controller and the problem remains the exact same as before. On the analog the only input control is your thumb and that's it. With the WASD you have 3 fingers. Even if you move one for 10ms you can still maneuver around with the other 2, you are only cutting your movement input by 33%. Now with your analog, not only does it take longer to do your combos, but you are also taking away 100% of the movement input while doing it. And I cann't properly attack your 9 button analog controller unless you link me a picture, as it stands I really don't see how you'd be able to use all 9 buttons and the analog without twisting your arm in funky ways.

I agree with the opening. Mouse is great for aiming and shooting but the keyboard is hell to use for movement/actions

1) I'll possibly give you this point, possibly.

2) Fine, I don't particularly care, since it doesn't change how easy it is to adjust for on the Wii controls, which is what this point was about in the first place

3) Uh, no, I thought it was kinda obvious that i would still be aiming with mouse/Wiimote as I did this. Why would you feel this needs autoaim? I just call it "keep pointing wherever the enemy is" because the analog isn't limited to 90 degree increments, I can basically "strafe" in any direction, regardless of which direction I'm facing. No matter where I aim, I can simply roll the analog stick so that I'm still strafing in the exact same direction.

4) That's great an all, but I'd still rather strafe the guy NOT getting shot at, instead of strafing the guy who has to dance around in order to keep from getting shot by me. on top of that, you're still basically admitting that the advantage is there, but you're trying to trivialize it, and I don't see the point. If you can say 10ms is the difference between making the shot and not making it, I could just as easily say that 15 degrees can be the difference between not getting shot and getting shot.

5) and yes, it seriously bugs me that I can't find a pic of this either, for the moment though, imagine an ergonomic mouse that is built for left handed people. It won't do mouse actions though, it's basically to rest your hand on. Where that groove to rest your thumb is, it has an analog stick and the whole controller is raised up at a slight angle so that your thumb won't hit the table, where you'd normally have left right and middle click, you instead have 3-4 rows of buttons for your fingers to rest on. Hitting the furthest out keys is only a matter of extending your fingers, hitting the closest in ones merely needs curling your fingers, and the middle row just has your fingers normal. I don't know if the analog stick could also be pressed as a button, but either way, that negates the hotkey issue and drops it back down to purely "analog vs wasd" which is what the whole thread was about to begin with.