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Forums - PC Discussion - OK you PC guys, I just don't get why mouse/keyboard FPS is such a big deal.

vlad321 on 23 October 2008
Grey Acumen said:
vlad321 said:

1) I mentioned the aiming again solely because you started bring up aiming and other crap which you bitch about all the time. I call it irony.

2) There is a good reason pros turn it off, and believe me, they get more than enough "practice."

3)/facepalm Now you are implying that the reticule will magically be stuck on the guy nomatter in which way you mvoe without your interaction? I  believe what you are refering to is auto-aim here.

4) OK look, guy number 1 is in the middle of your scren and you are shooting at him, in both cases you are shooting at him, let's assume 120 degree vision. Let's put the 2nd guy at the very edge then. When they both shoot at you at the same time there is no middle ground for dodging while still keeping the first in your center. If you are dodging the 2nd guy and the 1st there doesn't exist a 100% strafe efficiency, the best angle you would be able to get on either one at the same time would be 75 degrees, a very very insignificant benefit in terms of degrees in general. With WASD you have 90 degrees on the one you are shooting and 60 degrees on the 2nd guys. A 15 degree difference is nothing, not with the hitboxes that player models have. In both cases a miss equates to one game step.

5) I read what you said abuot the PS2 controller and the problem remains the exact same as before. On the analog the only input control is your thumb and that's it. With the WASD you have 3 fingers. Even if you move one for 10ms you can still maneuver around with the other 2, you are only cutting your movement input by 33%. Now with your analog, not only does it take longer to do your combos, but you are also taking away 100% of the movement input while doing it. And I cann't properly attack your 9 button analog controller unless you link me a picture, as it stands I really don't see how you'd be able to use all 9 buttons and the analog without twisting your arm in funky ways.

1) I'll possibly give you this point, possibly.

2) Fine, I don't particularly care, since it doesn't change how easy it is to adjust for on the Wii controls, which is what this point was about in the first place

3) Uh, no, I thought it was kinda obvious that i would still be aiming with mouse/Wiimote as I did this. Why would you feel this needs autoaim? I just call it "keep pointing wherever the enemy is" because the analog isn't limited to 90 degree increments, I can basically "strafe" in any direction, regardless of which direction I'm facing. No matter where I aim, I can simply roll the analog stick so that I'm still strafing in the exact same direction.

4) That's great an all, but I'd still rather strafe the guy NOT getting shot at, instead of strafing the guy who has to dance around in order to keep from getting shot by me. on top of that, you're still basically admitting that the advantage is there, but you're trying to trivialize it, and I don't see the point. If you can say 10ms is the difference between making the shot and not making it, I could just as easily say that 15 degrees can be the difference between not getting shot and getting shot.

5) and yes, it seriously bugs me that I can't find a pic of this either, for the moment though, imagine an ergonomic mouse that is built for left handed people. It won't do mouse actions though, it's basically to rest your hand on. Where that groove to rest your thumb is, it has an analog stick and the whole controller is raised up at a slight angle so that your thumb won't hit the table, where you'd normally have left right and middle click, you instead have 3-4 rows of buttons for your fingers to rest on. Hitting the furthest out keys is only a matter of extending your fingers, hitting the closest in ones merely needs curling your fingers, and the middle row just has your fingers normal. I don't know if the analog stick could also be pressed as a button, but either way, that negates the hotkey issue and drops it back down to purely "analog vs wasd" which is what the whole thread was about to begin with.

 

1) done

2) The problem here is whole you are adjusting your analog in tandem with the aiming and you make the slightest error with the IR pointer, wavering hand, sibling yells, whatever, and you fall of the edge and have to start it all again. I also still fail to see why you would want to be looking around and walking when there is no pressing need to be doing so. If you want to look, then stop and look, you don't need to be moving to do such stuff.

3) I feel like there's a miscommunication here. If you mean you will be strafing in any direction, not just 90 degrees, then I don't see why you are doing that, you can keep your reticule on the target just fine while strafing with a WASD, effectively running circles around them.

4) Of course I'm trivializing it, even for UT2004 an angle of 15 degrees is inconsequential unless they are right up in your face, and that game is damn fast, possibily fastest FPS out there. If we were talking twice that, say 30 degrees, then that would actually have a very noticable effect. If you want look at it as percentages. the main guy is at 90 degrees (up from 75) the other is now at 60 (down from 75). The loss is a grand total of 20%. Meanwhile 20ms is twice as slow as 10ms.

5) Ok I can pitcture the keys part but I really can't grasp the analog stick. Is it set in the X,Z place or the X,Y plane (the game's plane), because if it's in X,Z then all those maneuvers you've been describing, like little perfect adjustments while aiming and all that become needlessly difficult.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

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Grey Acumen on 23 October 2008
vlad321 said:

 

1) done

2) The problem here is whole you are adjusting your analog in tandem with the aiming and you make the slightest error with the IR pointer, wavering hand, sibling yells, whatever, and you fall of the edge and have to start it all again. I also still fail to see why you would want to be looking around and walking when there is no pressing need to be doing so. If you want to look, then stop and look, you don't need to be moving to do such stuff.

3) I feel like there's a miscommunication here. If you mean you will be strafing in any direction, not just 90 degrees, then I don't see why you are doing that, you can keep your reticule on the target just fine while strafing with a WASD, effectively running circles around them.

4) Of course I'm trivializing it, even for UT2004 an angle of 15 degrees is inconsequential unless they are right up in your face, and that game is damn fast, possibily fastest FPS out there. If we were talking twice that, say 30 degrees, then that would actually have a very noticable effect. If you want look at it as percentages. the main guy is at 90 degrees (up from 75) the other is now at 60 (down from 75). The loss is a grand total of 20%. Meanwhile 20ms is twice as slow as 10ms.

5) Ok I can pitcture the keys part but I really can't grasp the analog stick. Is it set in the X,Z place or the X,Y plane (the game's plane), because if it's in X,Z then all those maneuvers you've been describing, like little perfect adjustments while aiming and all that become needlessly difficult.

2) basically, you are summing the game's state into two fields of "are getting shot at" and "aren't getting shot at" but what about "could be shot at?" maybe you want to look around to check for someone sneaking up on you, but you don't want to stop at that time and present yourself as a target if they are there? It's great if you've already memorized teh entire course ahead of time, but that doesn't help on a course you haven't seen, o perhaps even a course that changes during gameplay (admittedly, I haven't seen any courses that change in teh middle for FPS, but it's likely they don't get incorporated because of the frustration it would invoke since typical FPS on PC can only look where they're aiming)

3) what if there's a wall that intersects that circle you're running? theoretically, you could press forward or back while you're doing this, but i'd rather be able to simply roll teh stick and take teh most shallow angle I can to still get past the wall.

5) the whole thing is at something like a 45 degree angle, so it's actually between those two. I think. It's still upright when relative to the position of your thumb, so it's no different than taking a PS2 controller and turning it sideways while you hold it. Your thumb still sits on the analog stick the same way.



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

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vlad321 on 23 October 2008
Grey Acumen said:
vlad321 said:

 

1) done

2) The problem here is whole you are adjusting your analog in tandem with the aiming and you make the slightest error with the IR pointer, wavering hand, sibling yells, whatever, and you fall of the edge and have to start it all again. I also still fail to see why you would want to be looking around and walking when there is no pressing need to be doing so. If you want to look, then stop and look, you don't need to be moving to do such stuff.

3) I feel like there's a miscommunication here. If you mean you will be strafing in any direction, not just 90 degrees, then I don't see why you are doing that, you can keep your reticule on the target just fine while strafing with a WASD, effectively running circles around them.

4) Of course I'm trivializing it, even for UT2004 an angle of 15 degrees is inconsequential unless they are right up in your face, and that game is damn fast, possibily fastest FPS out there. If we were talking twice that, say 30 degrees, then that would actually have a very noticable effect. If you want look at it as percentages. the main guy is at 90 degrees (up from 75) the other is now at 60 (down from 75). The loss is a grand total of 20%. Meanwhile 20ms is twice as slow as 10ms.

5) Ok I can pitcture the keys part but I really can't grasp the analog stick. Is it set in the X,Z place or the X,Y plane (the game's plane), because if it's in X,Z then all those maneuvers you've been describing, like little perfect adjustments while aiming and all that become needlessly difficult.

2) basically, you are summing the game's state into two fields of "are getting shot at" and "aren't getting shot at" but what about "could be shot at?" maybe you want to look around to check for someone sneaking up on you, but you don't want to stop at that time and present yourself as a target if they are there? It's great if you've already memorized teh entire course ahead of time, but that doesn't help on a course you haven't seen, o perhaps even a course that changes during gameplay (admittedly, I haven't seen any courses that change in teh middle for FPS, but it's likely they don't get incorporated because of the frustration it would invoke since typical FPS on PC can only look where they're aiming)

3) what if there's a wall that intersects that circle you're running? theoretically, you could press forward or back while you're doing this, but i'd rather be able to simply roll teh stick and take teh most shallow angle I can to still get past the wall.

5) the whole thing is at something like a 45 degree angle, so it's actually between those two. I think. It's still upright when relative to the position of your thumb, so it's no different than taking a PS2 controller and turning it sideways while you hold it. Your thumb still sits on the analog stick the same way.

 

2) You get shot at, you quickly do a back step, turn your mouse 90 degrees and continue going using A and D to dodge attacks.

3)So there's really no difference here since it doesn't matter whether you how you get there as long as you get there, but in any case chances are that you will hit the wall before seeing it and have to move up using the analog or W, same effect.

5) Have you tried to control characters while holding your controller sideways extensively? The transition of the character from his plane (just x,y) to the controller drastically changes things, you get used to it with practice but there's always that hesitation to make sure that up is left(?) and down is right, and all the little motions in between.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

marciosmg on 23 October 2008

I agree with the OP. I have been a console gamer pretty much all my life, and though I do think the mouse is great, I hate the keyboard and I love the analog stick in my controller.



www.jamesvandermemes.com

Grey Acumen on 23 October 2008

2) except if you're standing still while looking around, there's a good chance you've already been shot. One would think that not having to stop would still provide a significantly harder target to hit.

5) um, yes, actually, I have done that, I often do that. It's called the nunchuck+ wiimote combo, or the Mouse + PS2 controller. I rarely ever bother holding them straight up. I could do it with my hand behind my back if I wanted to. The only reason I hold a standard dual analog controller with the sticks straight up is because you have to in order to be able to hold the other side comfortably. If your hands aren't attached together, then there's no real reason to hold it straight up at all, and it's generally more comfortable to hold your hands with palm down and thumbs pointed inward.



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

<- Click to see more of her

 

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Mr_Tee_ on 23 October 2008
MattAAron said:
Im not sure how your setup is, but i can mimmick any movement with my mouse/keyboard to a console controller...

This is usually how my setup is:

Left Click = Move Forward
Right Click = Move Backward
X = Strafe Left
C = Strafe Right
Mouse Movement = Aim left/right/up/down
Hold Shift = Disable Aim Left/Right/Up/Down and move player Left/Right/Forward/Back

Its all a matter of perfecting the strafing & forward/backward movement

All pretty simple :)
^^ and i thought i was the only one to use mouse click for forward and backwards lol

This has been my setup since Quake 1 days when u had to type a command in console to get mouselook. My friends use WASD and they got used to it. I use mouse click for forward and backwards and strafes. Shoot is a key. This setup beats any setup for sniping because you aim freely with mouse and when you fire you dont click the mouse and make any small movements by mistake. Well its just opinion and i have gotten used to my setup.

When i played Halo 3 with a controller, how awful i was, it was only after a run through that i got to grips with the control

 





Owner of PS3, Wii, Xbox360, NDS, PSP - Feel Free to add me on PSN or XBL :)

Hephaestos on 23 October 2008

umh to me with M+K you move more with the mouse than anything else... it's like flight controls, you move with the stick but use the throttle. That is why mouse alone is better than controler.... now if you had an analog stick + mouse... that would rock.... provided you have enough buttons on that stick (the nostromo thing is a good basis for that...) still for consoles, I have yet to try it, but I guess the wii is as good as it can get controlwise but it'll never equal high sensitivity mouse for turning...



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vlad321 on 23 October 2008
Grey Acumen said:
2) except if you're standing still while looking around, there's a good chance you've already been shot. One would think that not having to stop would still provide a significantly harder target to hit.

5) um, yes, actually, I have done that, I often do that. It's called the nunchuck+ wiimote combo, or the Mouse + PS2 controller. I rarely ever bother holding them straight up. I could do it with my hand behind my back if I wanted to. The only reason I hold a standard dual analog controller with the sticks straight up is because you have to in order to be able to hold the other side comfortably. If your hands aren't attached together, then there's no real reason to hold it straight up at all, and it's generally more comfortable to hold your hands with palm down and thumbs pointed inward.

 

2) I think we can agree that with the mouse you won;t be just standing there, a quick jump and a jerk and you don't even lose momentum (even gain some in some games) or speed.

5) I did notice I played through MP3 with my arms sideways or upside down, but I also noticed that I'd fall off ledges much more doing that, or I'd get hit more often by the pirates.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

TowlieIsABeast on 23 October 2008

controller>mouse+keyboard



Grey Acumen on 23 October 2008
vlad321 said:
Grey Acumen said:
2) except if you're standing still while looking around, there's a good chance you've already been shot. One would think that not having to stop would still provide a significantly harder target to hit.

5) um, yes, actually, I have done that, I often do that. It's called the nunchuck+ wiimote combo, or the Mouse + PS2 controller. I rarely ever bother holding them straight up. I could do it with my hand behind my back if I wanted to. The only reason I hold a standard dual analog controller with the sticks straight up is because you have to in order to be able to hold the other side comfortably. If your hands aren't attached together, then there's no real reason to hold it straight up at all, and it's generally more comfortable to hold your hands with palm down and thumbs pointed inward.

 

2) I think we can agree that with the mouse you won;t be just standing there, a quick jump and a jerk and you don't even lose momentum (even gain some in some games) or speed.

5) I did notice I played through MP3 with my arms sideways or upside down, but I also noticed that I'd fall off ledges much more doing that, or I'd get hit more often by the pirates.

5) that's a practice issue.

Oh and I think I've found it, or something similar to ithat gamepad I was talking about. It's not the exact one I'm thinking abotu, but it's teh best example I van find lately

http://reviews.cnet.com/game-controllers/saitek-cyborg-command-unit/4505-3146_7-31818303.html?tag=prod.2

 



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

<- Click to see more of her