By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Microsoft - Microsoft’s 3 billion bet on Copilot is assessed to be a disaster

Chrkeller said:
curl-6 said:

It can also be a pretty massive disadvantage; just last month an AI system deleted a company's entire database: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/apr/29/claude-ai-deletes-firm-database

The difference with Apple and Amazon is that those companies had a realistic path to profitability; AI companies on the other hand currently don't, there's just not enough demand to balance out the vast amounts they're spending.

Open AI's Sam Altman for instance openly admits he has "no idea how we may one day generate revenue": https://www.startupbell.net/post/sam-altman-told-investors-bluntly-he-had-no-plans-on-how-to-generate-revenue

Oh AI has a path foward.  Get Sp500 companies addicted to it, then charge a license fee.  I strongly suspect my company would pay out the *** to keep copilot. 

My point with apple and Amazon, what once lost money now sits on top of the market.  Bleeding money upfront isn't unusual.

The problem is that even in its current heavily subsidized form, more than half of surveyed companies say they're not seeing financial benefits from AI:

https://www.forbes.com/councils/forbestechcouncil/2026/03/17/why-most-ceos-see-no-return-on-ai-investments/

https://fortune.com/article/why-do-thousands-of-ceos-believe-ai-not-having-impact-productivity-employment-study/

https://gizmodo.com/yet-another-study-shows-that-most-companies-arent-making-any-money-off-ai-2000688655

If AI companies were to start charging what they would need to to make their services profitable, then the price of AI to the customer skyrockets to many times what it costs now, and companies will be less inclined to use it because it would start burning into their bottom line.

Last edited by curl-6 - on 23 May 2026

Around the Network
curl-6 said:
Chrkeller said:

Oh AI has a path foward.  Get Sp500 companies addicted to it, then charge a license fee.  I strongly suspect my company would pay out the *** to keep copilot. 

My point with apple and Amazon, what once lost money now sits on top of the market.  Bleeding money upfront isn't unusual.

The problem is that even in its current heavily subsidized form, more than half of surveyed companies say they're not seeing financial benefits from AI:

https://www.forbes.com/councils/forbestechcouncil/2026/03/17/why-most-ceos-see-no-return-on-ai-investments/

https://fortune.com/article/why-do-thousands-of-ceos-believe-ai-not-having-impact-productivity-employment-study/

https://gizmodo.com/yet-another-study-shows-that-most-companies-arent-making-any-money-off-ai-2000688655

If AI companies were to start charging what they would need to to make their services profitable, then the price of AI to the customer skyrockets to many times what it costs now, and companies will be less inclined to use it because it would start burning into their bottom line.

Again, that is today.  Amazon spent a decade losing money.  Give it time.  I am positive my company would pay large sums for AI.  It will balance out.  AI is here to stay.  



rtx 4090, 32 gb ram, i7-13700k

Switch 2

Chrkeller said:
curl-6 said:

The problem is that even in its current heavily subsidized form, more than half of surveyed companies say they're not seeing financial benefits from AI:

https://www.forbes.com/councils/forbestechcouncil/2026/03/17/why-most-ceos-see-no-return-on-ai-investments/

https://fortune.com/article/why-do-thousands-of-ceos-believe-ai-not-having-impact-productivity-employment-study/

https://gizmodo.com/yet-another-study-shows-that-most-companies-arent-making-any-money-off-ai-2000688655

If AI companies were to start charging what they would need to to make their services profitable, then the price of AI to the customer skyrockets to many times what it costs now, and companies will be less inclined to use it because it would start burning into their bottom line.

Again, that is today.  Amazon spent a decade losing money.  Give it time.  I am positive my company would pay large sums for AI.  It will balance out.  AI is here to stay.  

Or it could simply be a dead end; AI primacy is in no way guaranteed, it could simply be that the technology has too many problems and limitations to ever really deliver what AI companies have promised and so far failed to deliver.



curl-6 said:
Chrkeller said:

Oh big disagree, massive.  AI speeds up R&D, which feeds prodict innovation.  Innovation brings in money.

China used it and we don't,...  the msrket will.be theirs with massive bump of income.  

We absolutely can't sit on the sideline.

AI speeds up some processes, but it also makes mistakes, requiring additional time to be spent fixing these errors.

AI itself also cannot innovate because it cannot produce original ideas, it can only remix and regurgitate whatever data is fed into it.

It's a useful tool for some tasks, like say upscaling, but there's major limits on what it can reliably do, and it's mostly not cost effective as it's expensive to run at scale. AI companies are bleeding billions of dollars and are kept on life support by investors who still buy into the hype.

The thing I posted earlier shows this isn't the case. It used reasoning to disprove something mathematicians believed for close to a century and produced an original idea that has advanced the field of mathematics which is a huge deal. I really think you're not up to date on just how capable state of the art 2026 models are. There's a significant gap between them and the best stuff from a year ago and a big gap between them and the free stuff. They're absolutely capable of producing original ideas now so the idea they just remix and regurgitate their training idea is outdated. 



Norion said:
curl-6 said:

AI speeds up some processes, but it also makes mistakes, requiring additional time to be spent fixing these errors.

AI itself also cannot innovate because it cannot produce original ideas, it can only remix and regurgitate whatever data is fed into it.

It's a useful tool for some tasks, like say upscaling, but there's major limits on what it can reliably do, and it's mostly not cost effective as it's expensive to run at scale. AI companies are bleeding billions of dollars and are kept on life support by investors who still buy into the hype.

The thing I posted earlier shows this isn't the case. It used reasoning to disprove something mathematicians believed for close to a century and produced an original idea that has advanced the field of mathematics which is a huge deal. I really think you're not up to date on just how capable state of the art 2026 models are. There's a significant gap between them and the best stuff from a year ago and a big gap between them and the free stuff. They're absolutely capable of producing original ideas now so the idea they just remix and regurgitate their training idea is outdated. 

Finding patterns and drawing conclusions in numerical data isn't forming an original idea, it's data in, data out. There's no "reasoning" involved, the model isn't really thinking.



Around the Network
curl-6 said:
Chrkeller said:

Again, that is today.  Amazon spent a decade losing money.  Give it time.  I am positive my company would pay large sums for AI.  It will balance out.  AI is here to stay.  

Or it could simply be a dead end; AI primacy is in no way guaranteed, it could simply be that the technology has too many problems and limitations to ever really deliver what AI companies have promised and so far failed to deliver.

Anything is possible but my money is on AI becoming like the internet.  Standard part of life.

It works really well for mathematical modeling.  Like amazing. 



rtx 4090, 32 gb ram, i7-13700k

Switch 2

Mnementh said:
SvennoJ said:
Rationality doesn't take the personal experience into account. It's very rational to say the world would function better with far less people, release Covid 2.0.

Rationality wouldn't be rational if it avoids taking things into account.
And the conception the world would be better off with less people is just simply wrong. That is called Malthusianism, after Thomas Robert Malthus who laid out the idea in an 1798 (!) essay of his. I can't understand why this idea persists, because according to Malthus we should've seen societal breakdown a hundred years ago. The thing Malthus didn't understand is, that more people also produce more ideas and therefore a lot of progress, which in turn is good for us. There are other factors involved to make it work, like education and basic living, but in contrast to what you claim, Malthusianism is exactly *not* rational, as it clashes with reality.
SvennoJ said:
Rationality also argues torture for information to prevent worse is acceptable, imagined or not.

This also isn't at all rational. That is because the relation you lay out is very short term thinking and avoids facing long term consequences. A society that accepts torturing results in a lot of mistrust and would overall work a lot worse. So again, torturing to prevent short term bad things is irrational, it is after all not drivven by Ratio, but by emotion, one of the strongest emotions there is: fear.
Also evidence shows that torture often results in false information, so it would be mostly useless to add.
SvennoJ said:

Rationality is also excluding deviations from the group to optimize the functionality of the average.

Again, anything that excludes valid things from your considerations isn't rational at all. Rationality is exactly that you look behind your biases and blind spots, and that means it is the rational stance to include all variations in considerations, otherwise how could it be rational if the thinking doesn't reflect the reality of the world (and excluding people that are not average is denying the realities of the world).
SvennoJ said:

I fear rationality! Rationality without humanism and empathy.

Again: humanism is a rational movement. So it is rational to include humanism.
The reality is, that the crimes of the history and the world there the result of misapplied emotions: fear, anger, despair, greed, hubris, contempt, condescension.
Emotions are a product of our evolution and as such work well enough for basic survival — in the world they evolved in. Mostly that means small groups. We aren't made for big societies with thousands and millions of people living together. This is used against us: PR of big companies and propaganda permanently uses emotions against our best interests.
That said, we are after all emotional beings. So the rational thing is also to consider this.
SvennoJ said:

Current AI is also a reflection of us. It's an accelerationist factor on the terrible path humanity is on. AI will only increase inequality, not solve it. AI will also make things less safe when more people rely on it, use it as a 'shortcut' and forego understanding and deep knowledge of complex system for higher productivity. As well as deflecting accountability, the machine did it.

I fully agree on accelerator. That already implies that it is up to us how we use it.

I can take another example of a technology: cars. Edward Bernays working for oil companies convinced the US government to invest in road infrastructure instead of public transport. This transformed the US into a country made for cars, not for people. You have cities there you can't walk, letting your kid walk or bike to school seems crazy to an american. The americans invented the crime "jaywalking", as in being a nuisance for cars. In comparison european cities are walkable, many kids walk to school or take the bicycle. There is plenty of public transport. And many european cities have core areas, where cars are banned altogether. The same technology - cars - different outcomes. It depends on how we use it.

I cannot recommend the story Manna by Marshall Brain enough. Crazy to think it was written in 2003 already, more than 20 years ago. The software described in it - Manna - is not at all like LLMs. But the societal impact is spot on. But this story has a very important subtitle: "Two Views of Humanity’s Future". It lays out that it is our use of the technology, the societal parameters around it that decide the outcome. The technology itself is neutral, it supports either societal structure. In this time of AI usage I cannot recommend reading this more, it is a relatively short read and completely free to read on the internet: https://marshallbrain.com/manna

So yes, LLMs and current AI is rapidly accelerating our societal development. This puts pressure on us to fix the problems we have. But these are our problems and the developments would happen with or without AI - just slower. We need to fix our world, and now!

Humans have been rationalizing war crimes, torture, reducing / displacing population for all recorded history. Trump is rationalizing his war on the ME with one mantra he repeats hundred times a day "Iran can not have a nuclear weapon" and with that he rationalizes every terrible thing he's done. Who says AI won't do the same, with even less emotion. Who says AI would not have nuked Iran already when given the instruction "Iran can not have a nuclear weapon".

Rationality is the quality of basing beliefs and decisions on reason, logic, and empirical evidence rather than emotion or intuition.


That can have positive effects, excluding racism from decisions, yet the evidence is all around us, banker wars for resources, it's the rational decision to keep a stranglehold over the world. It's rational decisions that lead to wars, despite the media and politicians using people's emotions to go along with it.

We don't need more acceleration, too much change too fast is far more dangerous and destructive. Btw Europe still has a car problem, congested, pollution, urban sprawl, nearly 20K traffic deaths yearly.

"it is our use of the technology, the societal parameters around it that decide the outcome."

Indeed, who is controlling AI is who determines where society will go. It's the same people that are orchestrating / funding and going along with resource wars / worship unbridled capitalism and don't give a crap about people. 

AI is a tool and I don't trust those wielding it at all. 

As example, would the world have been better off with nuclear technology? Sure it accelerated growth a bit with nuclear power plants, but those in power used it to take the world hostage and still do. The 2 nukes on Japan were not necessary at all yet rationalized away as a future deterrent. That same rationalization has now persuaded 'the deranged occupant of the white house' to seal the fate of millions of people. (Hunger/starvation will increase killing millions as the outcome of this folly)

Yes we need to fix our world, tech billionaires with their data centers are not going to do it. But they can accelerate the fall of US empire and civilization in general. International law has already been dismantled out of self-dense rational.



IPOS Are legit a scam, this is how corpos make their Millions. Hype up a private corperation, get a Multi Mega-Millions evaluation, and IPO the shares and OPT out.
The IPO, is how they will socialize the loss onto the gullible public. https://github.com/AmeenAli/XAI_Transformers

As someone who is using Grok to make a game, (Coming out on App play store in 2 weeks) (most uncensored AI) its like QWEN, Stable Diffusion and other Diffusion models. AI bro's probably don't' even read the papers on how Transformers actually work. I use both local AI and Grock, I have ComfyUI installed on my PC so I know what im talking about. I also have Oobabooga and play around with AIchat characters.  All have a free alternative. 

Grok Imagine is powered by Aurora, xAI’s proprietary autoregressive Mixture-of-Experts (MoE) model (not a traditional diffusion model).
It works by treating image generation as a sequential token prediction task: the model is trained on massive interleaved text-image datasets, learning to autoregressively generate visual tokens (similar to how LLMs predict next words) conditioned on the text prompt. A Mixture-of-Experts architecture routes different parts of the image to specialized expert sub-networks, enabling strong prompt adherence, coherent composition, excellent typography, consistent faces, and high photorealism. This autoregressive approach (as opposed to iterative denoising in diffusion models like Flux or SD3) gives it natural advantages in following complex instructions and maintaining global consistency, while still producing high-resolution outputs efficiently.

  • At the very beginning, the model starts with an empty grid (or a special start token).
  • It then generates the first patch (top-left) based only on the text prompt.
  • Next patches are generated one by one (usually in raster order — left to right, top to bottom), each one conditioned on the prompt + all previous patches.
  • Early patches often look like random colors or vague blobs. The image only becomes coherent after many patches are filled in.



for the laughs you can install Stable Diffusion for free. https://github.com/lllyasviel/stable-diffusion-webui-forge

Comfy UI:  https://github.com/Comfy-Org/ComfyUI

For every PAID AI their is a free alternative. Eventually data centers will be old and irrelevant and everything will be locally run on 3080's or higher.
Have fun Gang. :D I'll be laughing when circular financing collapses and I get Grock Imagine for Free :D

Last edited by AIHunterX - on 23 May 2026

SvennoJ said:

Humans have been rationalizing war crimes, torture, reducing / displacing population for all recorded history. Trump is rationalizing his war on the ME with one mantra he repeats hundred times a day "Iran can not have a nuclear weapon" and with that he rationalizes every terrible thing he's done. Who says AI won't do the same, with even less emotion. Who says AI would not have nuked Iran already when given the instruction "Iran can not have a nuclear weapon".

Rationality is the quality of basing beliefs and decisions on reason, logic, and empirical evidence rather than emotion or intuition.


That can have positive effects, excluding racism from decisions, yet the evidence is all around us, banker wars for resources, it's the rational decision to keep a stranglehold over the world. It's rational decisions that lead to wars, despite the media and politicians using people's emotions to go along with it.

We don't need more acceleration, too much change too fast is far more dangerous and destructive. Btw Europe still has a car problem, congested, pollution, urban sprawl, nearly 20K traffic deaths yearly.

"it is our use of the technology, the societal parameters around it that decide the outcome."

Indeed, who is controlling AI is who determines where society will go. It's the same people that are orchestrating / funding and going along with resource wars / worship unbridled capitalism and don't give a crap about people. 

AI is a tool and I don't trust those wielding it at all. 

As example, would the world have been better off with nuclear technology? Sure it accelerated growth a bit with nuclear power plants, but those in power used it to take the world hostage and still do. The 2 nukes on Japan were not necessary at all yet rationalized away as a future deterrent. That same rationalization has now persuaded 'the deranged occupant of the white house' to seal the fate of millions of people. (Hunger/starvation will increase killing millions as the outcome of this folly)

Yes we need to fix our world, tech billionaires with their data centers are not going to do it. But they can accelerate the fall of US empire and civilization in general. International law has already been dismantled out of self-dense rational.

"Rationalizing" already implies it is not rational. You use that word multiple times. The definition you give is correct: "Rationality is the quality of basing beliefs and decisions on reason, logic, and empirical evidence rather than emotion or intuition." People claiming their decision being rational doesn't make it so and excluding factors that are known is indeed not rational. So yes, people lie a lot to define their decisions as rational, but I cannot see war being a rational decision, if you take everything into account. People use their emotions (fear, superiority) or personal gains to decide pro war, and then construct something to claim their decision is rational. It is not. In science starting from the result is not something you do. Rationalization is not the same as being rational. Because you already start with the conclusion and then cherry-pick your evidence to support it. So you are not arguing against rationality at all, just a facade over emotionally based decision.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025 

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [GTA6]

curl-6 said:
Norion said:

The thing I posted earlier shows this isn't the case. It used reasoning to disprove something mathematicians believed for close to a century and produced an original idea that has advanced the field of mathematics which is a huge deal. I really think you're not up to date on just how capable state of the art 2026 models are. There's a significant gap between them and the best stuff from a year ago and a big gap between them and the free stuff. They're absolutely capable of producing original ideas now so the idea they just remix and regurgitate their training idea is outdated. 

Finding patterns and drawing conclusions in numerical data isn't forming an original idea, it's data in, data out. There's no "reasoning" involved, the model isn't really thinking.

But it wasn't in any data since no mathematicians had been able to come to that conclusion so not only did it produce something original for the field of mathematics, it's so advanced that only full on PHD level experts in math would be able to produce something that high quality. I understand scepticism here since it sounds wild but there is actually reasoning involved.

They don't just predict what the next thing is supposed to be, nowadays they have internal thought processes that they use while examining data to come to their own conclusions. Here's a link that shows the thought process of the model as it tackled the problem so you can see for yourself. Basically if it was just predicting what comes next and wasn't doing any thinking it wouldn't have been able to successfully do what it did since it's something original no one had ever done before in math.

Last edited by Norion - on 23 May 2026