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Forums - Politics - Sydney Sweeney does an ad for jeans, media throws a hissy fit

Chrkeller said:
curl-6 said:

Yeah I've noticed this a lot too.

Among the louder elements of the left at least, there's always the sense that leftist ideology is perfect and beyond reproach and that anyone who doesn't agree with it is just a filthy ignorant subhuman fascist who can't be reasoned with.

This attitude alienates broad swathes of folks from groups like working class white people and straight men and drives them into the arms of the right, who then win them over by promising them "we don't hate you like the left does."

This is why the alt right has flourished in recent years, and if it's ever going to be defeated, this needs to change.

Very well articulated Curl.  This is exactly what is happening all across the country.  

I know absolutely brilliant people who voted republican last election.  People who run circles around many folks here.  But many liberals will insist those people have to be "dumb" because they can't fathom a world where someone might not agree with their platform.  Thr left have created this attitude "if you don't agree, you are beneath me."  Well the message has been received and middle America has responded with "go **** yourself" attitude of their own.  

Historically the left was strongest, when it was an alliance of working class people with intellectuals. That was the strong core of left politics. But in recent years the intellectuals looks down on the working class and the working class despises intellectual elites and the rift has worsened over the years. As a result we are seeing the left flatlining basically worldwide. I want quickly add, that the democrats itself are not a left party, they are center at best, but a strong left can pull at them to influence politics.

Also, intellectuals are not arriving at better political conclusions. How can they, if they ignore big parts of the citizenship and their experiences. But also, despite thinking that education and experience in critical thinking helps with deciding political questions, research shows it actually does not. You can ask exactly the same question, once you frame it in the context of partisan politics, even educated people with experience in reasoning drop all their skill to align with their chosen tribe. Which is why the conclusion that the 'dumb people just need to come to their senses' is so deeply frustrating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB_OApdxcno

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Chrkeller said:
curl-6 said:

Yeah I've noticed this a lot too.

Among the louder elements of the left at least, there's always the sense that leftist ideology is perfect and beyond reproach and that anyone who doesn't agree with it is just a filthy ignorant subhuman fascist who can't be reasoned with.

This attitude alienates broad swathes of folks from groups like working class white people and straight men and drives them into the arms of the right, who then win them over by promising them "we don't hate you like the left does."

This is why the alt right has flourished in recent years, and if it's ever going to be defeated, this needs to change.

Very well articulated Curl.  This is exactly what is happening all across the country.  

I know absolutely brilliant people who voted republican last election.  People who run circles around many folks here.  But many liberals will insist those people have to be "dumb" because they can't fathom a world where someone might not agree with their platform.  Thr left have created this attitude "if you don't agree, you are beneath me."  Well the message has been received and middle America has responded with "go **** yourself" attitude of their own.  

Smart people who vote for Republicans are of course people who benefit from republican policies (high class citzens)

Poor and low middle classes who vote for Republicans are either:

- Dumb who vote for the benefit of others 

- Poorly educated (I.e. don't really understand economy, politics or things related)

-Single-issue voters (extremely conservative, hate immigrants, anti contemporary culture, etc)

- Or workers who think they will get rich in future, and Republicans will be there to protect their money eventually. I'd say this is a subset of the dumb people, but there are the 1% of smart people who actually get rich among those so there is that 

This is very strange in the USA. The states who vote republican are historically poorer, rural with a less educated people (Democrats always won among college educated people). In most countries I follow elections the poorer classes tend to vote for socialist or labors party. This is because even a lower class voter who barely finished elementary school can understand the best path for his own survival is to vote left and expect government to give them some income distribution, free healthcare and housing



IcaroRibeiro said:
Chrkeller said:

Very well articulated Curl.  This is exactly what is happening all across the country.  

I know absolutely brilliant people who voted republican last election.  People who run circles around many folks here.  But many liberals will insist those people have to be "dumb" because they can't fathom a world where someone might not agree with their platform.  Thr left have created this attitude "if you don't agree, you are beneath me."  Well the message has been received and middle America has responded with "go **** yourself" attitude of their own.  

Smart people who vote for Republicans are of course people who benefit from republican policies (high class citzens)

Poor and low middle classes who vote for Republicans are either:

- Dumb who vote for the benefit of others 

- Poorly educated (I.e. don't really understand economy, politics or things related)

-Single-issue voters (extremely conservative, hate immigrants, anti contemporary culture, etc)

- Or workers who think they will get rich in future, and Republicans will be there to protect their money eventually. I'd say this is a subset of the dumb people, but there are the 1% of smart people who actually get rich among those so there is that 

This is very strange in the USA. The states who vote republican are historically poorer, rural with a less educated people (Democrats always won among college educated people). In most countries I follow elections the poorer classes tend to vote for socialist or labors party. This is because even a lower class voter who barely finished elementary school can understand the best path for his own survival is to vote left and expect government to give them some income distribution, free healthcare and housing

You forgot about a 5th group.  Low income workers don't expect others to pay their bills.  Many people in the US would benefit from free college or Universal healthcare, but don't want it, because expecting others to carry our burden isn't part of our core belief. 

Many Americans genuinely believe in boot straps and simply don't want a charity based system.  Unless somebody has lived and experienced America, this is a hard concept to explain.  I know plenty of people who absolutely would not take money even if helped.  There is a pride aspect to taking care of ones self.  

For many middle Americans, social support is considered charity and being offered charity is offensive.  Many would rather live a modest life than reduce their pride by taking from others.  

This is a huge part of American culture that too many here, whom never have experienced first hand, simply don't understand.  

The idea "they dumb" is ****ing nonsense and reeks of ignorance.  

People in the Midwest don't want liberal help.  They are a very prideful group of people who are well aware of what liberals think of them.  Hence they vote the way they do.  

*I've lived 40+ years throughout the Midwest.

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 17 August 2025

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Chrkeller said:
curl-6 said:

Yeah I've noticed this a lot too.

Among the louder elements of the left at least, there's always the sense that leftist ideology is perfect and beyond reproach and that anyone who doesn't agree with it is just a filthy ignorant subhuman fascist who can't be reasoned with.

This attitude alienates broad swathes of folks from groups like working class white people and straight men and drives them into the arms of the right, who then win them over by promising them "we don't hate you like the left does."

This is why the alt right has flourished in recent years, and if it's ever going to be defeated, this needs to change.

Very well articulated Curl.  This is exactly what is happening all across the country.  

I know absolutely brilliant people who voted republican last election.  People who run circles around many folks here.  But many liberals will insist those people have to be "dumb" because they can't fathom a world where someone might not agree with their platform.  Thr left have created this attitude "if you don't agree, you are beneath me."  Well the message has been received and middle America has responded with "go **** yourself" attitude of their own.  

If these "brilliant" people you know are not stupid, then why did they surrender their ability to think critically and vote for an inept demagogue with a history of corruption and aspirations for tyranny? Perhaps they saw a means of gain, and were willing to sacrifice ethics to have a seat at the table of corruption. But that's not any better than stupidity.

Just because someone is offended at being called stupid, does not mean they're not stupid.

Saying that "they can't fathom a world where someone might not agree with their platform" is pure bullshit. Those of us outside of MAGA have no illusions that MAGA has a different opinion in the same way creationists and flat earthers have different opinions. MAGA's opinions led them to support and vote for a failed former President with a history of ineptitude, corruption, who is also a pedophile, also convicted felon, with a fascist manifesto that would harm the vast majority of Americans and many people beyond the US borders. Their opinions are precisely why we consider the MAGA supporters to be stupid and/or corrupt.

History shows us just how dangerous stupid people in large numbers can be. We've seen them destroy whole countries causing tens of millions of deaths, and vast levels of destruction, with the example of Nazi Germany. And that is just in the most extreme and wide-scale case history has yet recorded, but not the cap. Other examples of stupidity brought the religious wars, the wars of nationalism, the rise of totalitarian ideology, and about two and a half thousand years of demagogues and tyrants. MAGA-brain isn't new, merely the most recent iteration of these stupidity-fueled regimes in a major country.



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Chrkeller said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

Smart people who vote for Republicans are of course people who benefit from republican policies (high class citzens)

Poor and low middle classes who vote for Republicans are either:

- Dumb who vote for the benefit of others 

- Poorly educated (I.e. don't really understand economy, politics or things related)

-Single-issue voters (extremely conservative, hate immigrants, anti contemporary culture, etc)

- Or workers who think they will get rich in future, and Republicans will be there to protect their money eventually. I'd say this is a subset of the dumb people, but there are the 1% of smart people who actually get rich among those so there is that 

This is very strange in the USA. The states who vote republican are historically poorer, rural with a less educated people (Democrats always won among college educated people). In most countries I follow elections the poorer classes tend to vote for socialist or labors party. This is because even a lower class voter who barely finished elementary school can understand the best path for his own survival is to vote left and expect government to give them some income distribution, free healthcare and housing

You forgot about a 5th group.  Low income workers don't expect others to pay their bills.  Many people in the US would benefit from free college or Universal healthcare, but don't want it, because expecting others to carry our burden isn't part of our core belief. 

This is the first group: The group of dumb people who are consciously voting against themselves for no rational reason 

I'm very familiar with them and don't need to live in USA to understand since there are plenty of them in Brazil, although not in the same volume as in USA

I guess it something cultural, but still strange. I guess not everyone has a built-in mechanism to be sympathetic for the less affortunated which explain the rich voting for pro-market candidates, but I thought at least voting for their own benefit would be the norm



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IcaroRibeiro said:
Chrkeller said:

You forgot about a 5th group.  Low income workers don't expect others to pay their bills.  Many people in the US would benefit from free college or Universal healthcare, but don't want it, because expecting others to carry our burden isn't part of our core belief. 

This is the first group: The group of dumb people who are consciously voting against themselves for no rational reason 

I'm very familiar with them and don't need to live in USA to understand since there are plenty of them in Brazil, although not in the same volume as in USA

I guess it something cultural, but still strange. I guess not everyone has a built-in mechanism to be sympathetic for the less affortunated which explain the rich voting for pro-market candidates, but I thought at least voting for their own benefit would be the norm

Wrong.  Self sustained pride is part of their culture.  We shouldn't be bashing culture because it doesn't fit within our personal beliefs.

They are not part of the "dumb" group, because they aren't dumb.  Calling people dumb really isn't appropriate and doesn't add to the discussion.



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Chrkeller said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

This is the first group: The group of dumb people who are consciously voting against themselves for no rational reason 

I'm very familiar with them and don't need to live in USA to understand since there are plenty of them in Brazil, although not in the same volume as in USA

I guess it something cultural, but still strange. I guess not everyone has a built-in mechanism to be sympathetic for the less affortunated which explain the rich voting for pro-market candidates, but I thought at least voting for their own benefit would be the norm

Wrong.  Self sustained pride is part of their culture.  We shouldn't be bashing culture because it doesn't fit within our personal beliefs.

They are not part of the "dumb" group, because they aren't dumb.  Calling people dumb really isn't appropriate and doesn't add to the discussion.

I can call them stupid, if you think it's a less offensive word. I'm not good at sugarcoating my words in English

The reason why I think it's stupid is because this is a group that cannot be reasoned with. It's a group of people who already analyzed and understand the consequences of their votes and decided people losing their homes and dying without healthcare is a good enough outcome because... *check notes* NOBODY should get state aid

I mean, you could argue if those people are prideful they could keep using private services. In a country with progressive taxes, the poor pay less taxes, so it's not like they would be the ones subsiding free healthcare anyways 



Chrkeller said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

This is the first group: The group of dumb people who are consciously voting against themselves for no rational reason 

I'm very familiar with them and don't need to live in USA to understand since there are plenty of them in Brazil, although not in the same volume as in USA

I guess it something cultural, but still strange. I guess not everyone has a built-in mechanism to be sympathetic for the less affortunated which explain the rich voting for pro-market candidates, but I thought at least voting for their own benefit would be the norm

Wrong.  Self sustained pride is part of their culture.  We shouldn't be bashing culture because it doesn't fit within our personal beliefs.

They are not part of the "dumb" group, because they aren't dumb.  Calling people dumb really isn't appropriate and doesn't add to the discussion.

Aren't these people generally pretty devout Christians? Pretty sure pride is a sin, no? THE sin, even.



Angelus said:
Chrkeller said:

Wrong.  Self sustained pride is part of their culture.  We shouldn't be bashing culture because it doesn't fit within our personal beliefs.

They are not part of the "dumb" group, because they aren't dumb.  Calling people dumb really isn't appropriate and doesn't add to the discussion.

Aren't these people generally pretty devout Christians? Pretty sure pride is a sin, no? THE sin, even.

The funny thing is originaly catholics were against wealth accumulation. All people should had only the basic means to live comfortably lifes. High profits are sinful, and charity is a THEOLOGICAL VIRTUE

Protestantism was widespreaded to overrun many catholic beliefs, in a attempt to give cultural and theological legitimacy to the newly created bourgeoisie. Max Webber described the relationship between capitalist values and protestants (mainly calvinist) values

It's a no-brainer a originally catholic country like Brazil had a religious catholic segment that massively voted for left last century (which is an anachronism since socialism is atheist in nature), while now we have a massive neo pentecostal protestant segment voting for the right 



curl-6 said:
Chrkeller said:

The other thing, not directed at you, I find funny is how the left (in general) doesn't think their attitude is a problem.  Most middle Americans are well aware the left looks down on them.  The left is referred to "elitist" for a reason.  Why would middle Americans support a party that thinks they are deplorable, trash, stupid, etc?  The answer is, they wouldn't....  and didn't.  This thread is a great example.  Very condescending and rude to 50% of the US population.  I can assume you threads like this just make current conservatives more unwilling to vote differently.  Bill Maher has a lot of good videos talking about this impact.  

Yeah I've noticed this a lot too.

Among the louder elements of the left at least, there's always the sense that leftist ideology is perfect and beyond reproach and that anyone who doesn't agree with it is just a filthy ignorant subhuman fascist who can't be reasoned with.

This attitude alienates broad swathes of folks from groups like working class white people and straight men and drives them into the arms of the right, who then win them over by promising them "we don't hate you like the left does."

This is why the alt right has flourished in recent years, and if it's ever going to be defeated, this needs to change.

Hello, I'm someone on the left who has used less than kind words to talk about those who voted for Trump. My argument is not that the left is perfect. Quite the opposite actually. I think a lot of people on the left genuinely hate the left and I have a ton of criticisms of the ideology, the policy and the people. 

My argument is that the right has become so fundamentally vile that I believe no rationally acting individual can intelligently vote for them (with the exception of maybe billionaires acting for their own financial interests). I also feel that if someone decides to vote for Trump because some random asshole on the internet called them an idiot (it's me, I'm the asshole), they are proving the accusation true. 

Does that mean it is good policy to call people idiots? I mean, no, but that doesn't make it not true.