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Forums - Politics Discussion - 2024 US Presidential Election

RolStoppable said:

What I was saying is that your made-up story is what the Harris campaign actually did. Before it was ignorance on your part, but now it's denial.

How could Harris enact such policies, if she was Vice President? Did you actually read what I wrote? The Biden administration did something, but by far not enough. I showed the statistics, more and more people get poor and have problems, while the rich continually gets richer. If it is all the economy, why have only the working class to take the burden? That is something policy can do something about, that is what Bernie Sanders called out. Harris couldn't do anything yet about that, she wasn't president. She did indeed though find nothing worthy to change over the Biden administration.

RolStoppable said:

Votes in California are still being counted because the deadline for mail-in ballots is apparently today; estimate is that ~25% are left to count in that state which amounts to at least 4 million votes. In other words, the final numbers of this election aren't even in yet. But more importantly, because of the American voting system you have to look at state results instead of national results, and specifically the seven swing states which were really the only ones that mattered because all the other states were regarded as secure and turned out that way too. The counting in the swing states is pretty much done, so this is worth looking at.

Arizona: Harris -160k compared to Biden in 2020 (Trump +30k compared to himself in 2020); Georgia: Harris +70k (Trump +200k); Michigan: Harris -70k (Trump +150k); Nevada: Harris -10k (Trump +60k); North Carolina: Harris +0k (Trump +130k); Pennsylvania: Harris -120k (Trump +170k); Wisconsin: Harris +40k (Trump +90k).

There's something of everything in these results. Arizona falls in line with your assertion that Harris lost votes that Trump didn't gain. Georgia, North Carolina and Wisconsin have both candidates gaining, but Trump moreso. Michigan, Nevada and Pennsylvania have Trump gain at the expense of Harris.

Sure, but most is counted. And lets concede, yes maybe some former democrats now voted Trump. I assume more people came from non-voters, but that is just an assumption. The fact stays, that the majority of vote the democrats lost didn't go over to Trump.

RolStoppable said:

The working class has financial problems. The Harris campaign said "we hear you, here are concrete proposals to make things better for you" while Trump rambled about tariffs which are an additional tax on all Americans, including the working class. The fact remains that it is irrational and stupid to pick the latter option. But be my guest and deny it another time that the Harris campaign kept talking about the costs of living.

Both campaigns had ads about pretty much everything. The Harris campaign had 1 billion dollar to burn. But what was the main messaging here? Working class? Nah. That barely made a dent. And given that under the democratic administration of Biden the working class had to suffer the economic downfall and not the rich, people got fed up to begin with. In that surrounding the messaging just wasn't convincing. There should have been more and bolder proposals.

RolStoppable said:

Lastly, you've said it before that you don't want to help the right. But that's exactly what you are doing by picking up their narrative that the Democrats are to blame for everything, with no responsibility whatsoever lying with the voters.

The gaslighting is strong with you. I didn't pick up any right-wing propaganda. I cited Bernie Sanders, Mike Figueredo, Kyle Kulinski, Hasan Piker - actual left wingers. Not the center-right of the mass of the democratic party you are going so hard to bat for. You want to deny that any fault lies with the Democrats and that they lost big parts of the electorate because they don't care for them. You are telling people that live a harder live because of their circumstances that they should suck it up and they are being idiots and should vote dems - without expecting more than a bare minimum. You go on to state points what you make out as reasons declaring it as facts.

In denying people their reality you are actually the one helping the right, and you keep on doing so. If that is indicative of the democratic party, than probably the better course of action is not to try to reform the dems, but actually create a left-wing workers party. Because it is evident, that the current far-right Reps and center-right Dems are leaving behind more and more of the country. There is a lot of space left of them.

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Chrkeller said:

Lol, bullying?  I have two mods up my bumper, one who fabricated a false story and another threatening attacks on my wall.  Sweet mother of pearl.  

My initial reaction to reading your comment was that two moderators potentially misbehaved in their capacity as moderators.

After reviewing other posts to get further context (one of which you quoted) because this sounds like it could be a very serious issue, it seems this had nothing to do with Pi-Guy being a moderator.
And if you don't believe he spoke to a friend from the UK, simply say that you don't believe he did, unless you have evidence to support that he actually fabricated it.


"Someone mentioned a story I don't believe" ✔️
"A moderator fabricated a story"

See the difference in the implications for those who don't know the context?
Please do the former from now on. Otherwise staff may have to spend time investigating a potential case of abuses of power for no good reason.

The second moderator you mentioned, that you claim threatened attacks on your wall, seems to be Ryuu.
In this case it seems there was a moderator action, when he redirected an off-topic discussion to your wall.
But I read through both comments he made on your wall, and I see no threatening attacks there.

You can respond to my post here if you wish to clarify something. In particular what you meant by "threatening attacks on my wall".
But if you have issues with any decision made, as per the forum rules you can discuss it with me or any other moderator in PM, instead of here.



Do the rest of us really need to see this "dirty laundry" in public?



BFR said:

Do the rest of us really need to see this "dirty laundry" in public?

i'm fine with it, lets show the narcissistic guy that his shit ain't gonna fly here.  Any false insinuations, gaslighting, any of that isn't something that i want around me.  He can go somewhere else and have the most wonderful magnificent life, far far away.  



Trump taps Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy to lead Department of Government Efficiency

President-elect Donald Trump has announced that billionaire Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy, a former presidential candidate and ally of Trump, will lead a new Department of Government Efficiency.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-taps-elon-musk-and-vivek-ramaswamy-to-lead-department-of-government-efficiency/ar-AA1tYH58?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=63e059bec81d44158f58e79192578e6a&ei=7

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!!

----------------------------------------------

Edit:

Welcome to the era of DOGE.

LMAO !!!

Last edited by BFR - 16 hours ago

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Hiku said:
Chrkeller said:

Lol, bullying?  I have two mods up my bumper, one who fabricated a false story and another threatening attacks on my wall.  Sweet mother of pearl.  

My initial reaction to reading your comment was that two moderators potentially misbehaved in their capacity as moderators.

After reviewing other posts to get further context (one of which you quoted) because this sounds like it could be a very serious issue, it seems this had nothing to do with Pi-Guy being a moderator.
And if you don't believe he spoke to a friend from the UK, simply say that you don't believe he did, unless you have evidence to support that he actually fabricated it.


"Someone mentioned a story I don't believe" ✔️
"A moderator fabricated a story" ❌

See the difference in the implications for those who don't know the context?
Please do the former from now on. Otherwise staff may have to spend time investigating a potential case of abuses of power for no good reason.

The second moderator you mentioned, that you claim threatened attacks on your wall, seems to be Ryuu.
In this case it seems there was a moderator action, when he redirected an off-topic discussion to your wall.
But I read through both comments he made on your wall, and I see no threatening attacks there.

You can respond to my post here if you wish to clarify something. In particular what you meant by "threatening attacks on my wall".
But if you have issues with any decision made, as per the forum rules you can discuss it with me or any other moderator in PM, instead of here.

I will just say Chazore is right and everyone knows it.  

Now I have a mod messaging me telling me I have self esteem issues.

I'm sure that is fine and appropriate behavior too.  

Last edited by Chrkeller - 21 hours ago

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Chrkeller said:
RolStoppable said:

Almost all polls were within the margin of error, so hardly anyone had Harris winning. Even that one Iowa poll was within the margin of error, and it was an outlier because all other polls for the state had Trump winning. Regardless, the polls in general were wrong because they showed a toss-up when it wasn't a close race.

The polls being wrong doesn't make betting firms a good predictive tool though. They just show where the money flows, so your position of faith in them wasn't a good one because at the end of the day it's like putting faith in having random luck at the right time.

BFR said:

Remember the following post from Sept. 13 (Page 79 of this thread, 4th down)

LMAO !!!

So you show me an old post where I said that the polls aren't accurate in response to my post where I said that I didn't regard polls as accurate. Cool.

Mnementh said:

(...)

Let's make up a story. What if, the Democratic presidency instead of telling everyone to suck it up because worldwide economic situation is bad, would be understanding of the problems the working class people face. What if they create programs to help the people that are poor and are hardest hit? What if they supported their people instead of big corporations? (...)

That is what Kamala Harris ran on. Punish corporations for price gouging, tax cuts for the working class, benefits for first time house buyers.

Trump's policies, if implemented, will cost the working class up to an additional $4,000 a year when they are already stretched thin as it is.

One policy proposal is good for the working class, the other one is bad. This is a very easy call, so how could Trump win the election regardless? Because it's like sundin said, there are too many idiots who don't understand the economy.

In the aftermath of this election there have been way too many analyses that were built on the premise that American voters decided in a reasonable and rational manner, but Occam's Razor shouldn't be ignored. When you consider the stark contrast between the two candidates and their policies in all areas, this was the easiest decision ever, yet the American people still bungled it. A lot of them voted against their own financial interests.

It ain't that hard bro.  Polls had it as a toss up.  Betting firms had Trump winning fairly comfortable, including swing states.

Trump won comfortably and won all swing states.  

Betting firms were more accurate.  This cannot be disputed.  It is a cold hard fact, period.  

edit

End of October (31st), Polymarket had Trump at 65% and Harris at 35%....  polls had it as a tossup... there is no argument, full stop. 

1:45 - 3:25 (Political analyst tells snarky story about how she knew Kamala was going to win based on the polls pre election)

Doctors aren't always right. Police aren't always right. Media isn't always right. The Right isn't always right. And so on and so forth.

People need to realize that professionals aren't Gods, they're human beings. Individuals who don't know or understand everything, even when it comes to their specialized profession, and the few who actually do, for the most part, are an extreme rarity. Flawed on top of that, they all make mistakes, and more so than some would like to admit.

Professionals are more knowledgeable and useful in general, yes, but that's just it. In general. There's good reason why people will get second or third opinions from different doctors, and why some people will spend the time trying to educate themselves as much as possible beyond that, so that the best, most informed, intuitive decision can be made.

Everything should always be questioned. Everything. And then, you question that result/answer as well.



Chr, do you want some milk and cookies? Would that cheer you up? ;)



Shinobi-san said:
EricHiggin said:

I remember a post during the 2020 election, that said if the independents and the center left want the Democrat party to legitimately come back closer to center, that instead of them sitting at home and allowing Trump to win by default like in 2016, that they were going to need to get up and vote for Trump, however difficult that may be for them to swallow. Not in perpetuity, but for long enough to force the Dems to pay attention and shift their course in a more reasonable direction.

The thought behind this was that as long as the Dems could say they had the popular vote, they and many of their voters, were going to be convinced that they could continue governing in the direction they had been, more and more left, and that they just had to campaign smarter and harder during the elections. This meant they were never going to learn the lesson they should've in 2016.

That post got swarmed and that member got told by many that they 'knew what they were up to' and that 'they, nor anyone else, was going to fall for it'. As per the 2020 results, apparently they, nor the independents or center left, 'fell for it', whatever diabolical plan it was behind, supposedly.

Well it actually finally happened, to a degree, the first step you could say, and now here we are. Are the left going to finally realize that member had a strong point, or are they going to keep their blindfolds on and deny what's staring them in the face? How many elections going forward is it going to take?

Pretty sound advice from my point of view (the initial post).

I am not sure what the logical reasoning is but people on the left come across insanely aggressive even to those who agree with them on a large number of issues. 

People don't tend to like (to see) weakness from leadership. If you're on the left and don't go along with everything, to them, you're showing weakness to the right and those independents who are undecided as to where they stand. In politics the opposition is likely to use that against you and you may lose support and voters because of it, to the point where you may lose power or be unable to attain it.

The left look to the Gov these days much more so than the right, and so being united is much more important to them. The right is much more comfortable on their own, and doesn't see the need to rely on the Gov like the left does. It's also why the right cares so much more about the individual States, as well as the first and second amendments these days.

Political aggression in general, in a democracy or similar, also tends to mean one side can't make its case to the opposition, so you start with aggression before you move on to force, to try and get your way. The left these days likes to say it's because some people, especially on the right, are so stupid, but that doesn't really make any sense, because that would mean the left was smarter, if not much smarter, and if they were that smart, it should be easy to dumb it down and explain it to most of the 'idiots'.

Some people just don't understand for different reasons, but there are some others who think they're much smarter than they actually are, as well some others who aren't near as dumb and useless as they're told they are. There's way too many people in bubbles that think they're open minded, when they're actually more so in "The Matrix" and don't realize it, or far worse, realize it, like it, and think it's what's best for everyone.



Mnementh said:
RolStoppable said:

What I was saying is that your made-up story is what the Harris campaign actually did. Before it was ignorance on your part, but now it's denial.

1. How could Harris enact such policies, if she was Vice President? Did you actually read what I wrote? The Biden administration did something, but by far not enough. I showed the statistics, more and more people get poor and have problems, while the rich continually gets richer. If it is all the economy, why have only the working class to take the burden? That is something policy can do something about, that is what Bernie Sanders called out. Harris couldn't do anything yet about that, she wasn't president. She did indeed though find nothing worthy to change over the Biden administration.

RolStoppable said:

Votes in California are still being counted because the deadline for mail-in ballots is apparently today; estimate is that ~25% are left to count in that state which amounts to at least 4 million votes. In other words, the final numbers of this election aren't even in yet. But more importantly, because of the American voting system you have to look at state results instead of national results, and specifically the seven swing states which were really the only ones that mattered because all the other states were regarded as secure and turned out that way too. The counting in the swing states is pretty much done, so this is worth looking at.

Arizona: Harris -160k compared to Biden in 2020 (Trump +30k compared to himself in 2020); Georgia: Harris +70k (Trump +200k); Michigan: Harris -70k (Trump +150k); Nevada: Harris -10k (Trump +60k); North Carolina: Harris +0k (Trump +130k); Pennsylvania: Harris -120k (Trump +170k); Wisconsin: Harris +40k (Trump +90k).

There's something of everything in these results. Arizona falls in line with your assertion that Harris lost votes that Trump didn't gain. Georgia, North Carolina and Wisconsin have both candidates gaining, but Trump moreso. Michigan, Nevada and Pennsylvania have Trump gain at the expense of Harris.

Sure, but most is counted. And lets concede, yes maybe some former democrats now voted Trump. I assume more people came from non-voters, but that is just an assumption. The fact stays, that the majority of vote the democrats lost didn't go over to Trump.

RolStoppable said:

The working class has financial problems. The Harris campaign said "we hear you, here are concrete proposals to make things better for you" while Trump rambled about tariffs which are an additional tax on all Americans, including the working class. The fact remains that it is irrational and stupid to pick the latter option. But be my guest and deny it another time that the Harris campaign kept talking about the costs of living.

2. Both campaigns had ads about pretty much everything. The Harris campaign had 1 billion dollar to burn. But what was the main messaging here? Working class? Nah. That barely made a dent. And given that under the democratic administration of Biden the working class had to suffer the economic downfall and not the rich, people got fed up to begin with. In that surrounding the messaging just wasn't convincing. There should have been more and bolder proposals.

RolStoppable said:

Lastly, you've said it before that you don't want to help the right. But that's exactly what you are doing by picking up their narrative that the Democrats are to blame for everything, with no responsibility whatsoever lying with the voters.

3. The gaslighting is strong with you. I didn't pick up any right-wing propaganda. I cited Bernie Sanders, Mike Figueredo, Kyle Kulinski, Hasan Piker - actual left wingers. Not the center-right of the mass of the democratic party you are going so hard to bat for. You want to deny that any fault lies with the Democrats and that they lost big parts of the electorate because they don't care for them. You are telling people that live a harder live because of their circumstances that they should suck it up and they are being idiots and should vote dems - without expecting more than a bare minimum. You go on to state points what you make out as reasons declaring it as facts.

In denying people their reality you are actually the one helping the right, and you keep on doing so. If that is indicative of the democratic party, than probably the better course of action is not to try to reform the dems, but actually create a left-wing workers party. Because it is evident, that the current far-right Reps and center-right Dems are leaving behind more and more of the country. There is a lot of space left of them.

1. You are asking very stupid questions here. Harris was the presidential candidate and talked about the policies she will introduce once she is president. She told people that inflation has come down, but that isn't enough yet. She has said that over and over again during her campaign. You are clinging to her one isolated statement she made on The View and take that as her consistent message during her campaign, but that statement was an answer to the question what she would have done differently if she were president during the Biden term. It wasn't a question about what she will do during her term.

2. Yes, working class was the main message. How many American broadcasts did you watch as a German who isn't interested in sports? Most likely a grand zero. You hardly posted in this thread before the election either, so you are pretty much stumbling in here blindly and running with the limited information you like the most. That's why sundin is saying that you must live in an alternate reality, and he is right in saying that. Which leads to your conclusion...

3. ...that is inevitably off base because your premise what the Harris campaign was about is so wrong already. It's also rich that you accuse me of denial after deliberately snipping my post to leave out the part where I placed blame on the Democrats.

https://kamalaharris.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Policy_Book_Economic-Opportunity.pdf

Just read the bullet points on page 3, that's what Harris ran on.



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