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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - TotK really makes Switch feel dated

Mnementh on 26 May 2023
VAMatt said:
curl-6 said:

The thing is, while the graphics may not be high end, the game is actually an incredible technical achievement in terms of how big and complex it is while remaining almost entirely free of glitches and jank.
A lot of people in the industry are blown away by how Nintendo was able to pull this off, so it's arguable that in terms of design, the game is cutting edge.

Mnementh said:

Actually, should we in future call games dated, that don't employ the scope and ability to creatively combine your resources you see in TotK? Because you could say that is the new industry standard.

I agree with both of these comments. And, that's why I said in the OP that TotK makes the *Switch* feel dated.  The hardware is holding the game back, possibly pretty significantly, depending on how much one values great graphics. Many aspects of the game are a step, in some cases many steps, above most of the rest of the industry. But, the hardware is causing the graphics to be a couple of steps behind. Presumably, with more modern hardware, the graphics would also be great. 

LOL, so you will call the next Spiderman dated, if it doesn't have weapon fusion and the ability to put NPCs on rockets?

I made that post, to point out the sillyness. And I can go further back.

Dwarf Fortress started over 20 years ago. It tracks complex information about the NPCs, not only their skills and status, but their personal preferences, their need to express themself, the songs they know and if they are pissed that this other dwarf let's his dirty socks lying around. So, is every game that doesn't model NPCs in that detail dated? Is God of War dated, as it does have scripted NPC-interactions, not this complex character simulation?

Minecraft allowed more than 10 years ago to completely destroy and rebuild environments. Is The Last of Us dated, because I can't do that?

We usually don't apply these innovations in gameplay as universally needed for all games. And yes, graphical innvoation is also a way a game can feel fresh and modern. But only with graphical innovation that somehow turns into a necessity for every game. That limits the creativity in gaming, as different games should have different focus. And this singular need to make every graphical advancement has to be turned in a precondition for new games is actually harming the gaming industry. See here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LplgYMiLhM



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year] [+], [1], [2], [3], [4]

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zeldaring on 26 May 2023
Mnementh said:
VAMatt said:

Mnementh said:

Actually, should we in future call games dated, that don't employ the scope and ability to creatively combine your resources you see in TotK? Because you could say that is the new industry standard.

I agree with both of these comments. And, that's why I said in the OP that TotK makes the *Switch* feel dated.  The hardware is holding the game back, possibly pretty significantly, depending on how much one values great graphics. Many aspects of the game are a step, in some cases many steps, above most of the rest of the industry. But, the hardware is causing the graphics to be a couple of steps behind. Presumably, with more modern hardware, the graphics would also be great. 

LOL, so you will call the next Spiderman dated, if it doesn't have weapon fusion and the ability to put NPCs on rockets?

I made that post, to point out the sillyness. And I can go further back.

Dwarf Fortress started over 20 years ago. It tracks complex information about the NPCs, not only their skills and status, but their personal preferences, their need to express themself, the songs they know and if they are pissed that this other dwarf let's his dirty socks lying around. So, is every game that doesn't model NPCs in that detail dated? Is God of War dated, as it does have scripted NPC-interactions, not this complex character simulation?

Minecraft allowed more than 10 years ago to completely destroy and rebuild environments. Is The Last of Us dated, because I can't do that?

We usually don't apply these innovations in gameplay as universally needed for all games. And yes, graphical innvoation is also a way a game can feel fresh and modern. But only with graphical innovation that somehow turns into a necessity for every game. That limits the creativity in gaming, as different games should have different focus. And this singular need to make every graphical advancement has to be turned in a precondition for new games is actually harming the gaming industry. See here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LplgYMiLhM

Can't really agree with you here. Every game has a different design and goals. nintendo for example doesn't push graphics and they have one game this whole gen thats really innovative with physics, and even that only works with zelda because its bread and butter is puzzles and exploration. graphics are easy to compare almost every game looks good today. I do believe though graphics have peaked and we don't need to push them anymore. ps4 graphics like red dead 2 at 60fps are good enough



Mnementh on 26 May 2023
zeldaring said:
Mnementh said:

LOL, so you will call the next Spiderman dated, if it doesn't have weapon fusion and the ability to put NPCs on rockets?

I made that post, to point out the sillyness. And I can go further back.

Dwarf Fortress started over 20 years ago. It tracks complex information about the NPCs, not only their skills and status, but their personal preferences, their need to express themself, the songs they know and if they are pissed that this other dwarf let's his dirty socks lying around. So, is every game that doesn't model NPCs in that detail dated? Is God of War dated, as it does have scripted NPC-interactions, not this complex character simulation?

Minecraft allowed more than 10 years ago to completely destroy and rebuild environments. Is The Last of Us dated, because I can't do that?

We usually don't apply these innovations in gameplay as universally needed for all games. And yes, graphical innvoation is also a way a game can feel fresh and modern. But only with graphical innovation that somehow turns into a necessity for every game. That limits the creativity in gaming, as different games should have different focus. And this singular need to make every graphical advancement has to be turned in a precondition for new games is actually harming the gaming industry. See here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LplgYMiLhM

Can't really agree with you here. Every game has a different design and goals. nintendo for example doesn't push graphics and they have one game this whole gen thats really innovative with physics, and even that only works with zelda because its bread and butter is puzzles and exploration. graphics are easy to compare almost every game looks good today. I do believe though graphics have peaked and we don't need to push them anymore. ps4 graphics like red dead 2 at 60fps are good enough

Graphics are a decision too. Graphics from a game like A Short Hike are totally fine, even though it targets to be more like PS1 level. My example Dwarf Fortress has without mods (or the new Steam version) only a text interface. And people love that game. Expecting any graphical standard is bonkers, that actually is an artistic decision as much as many other decision made by the dev.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year] [+], [1], [2], [3], [4]

zeldaring on 26 May 2023
Mnementh said:
zeldaring said:

Can't really agree with you here. Every game has a different design and goals. nintendo for example doesn't push graphics and they have one game this whole gen thats really innovative with physics, and even that only works with zelda because its bread and butter is puzzles and exploration. graphics are easy to compare almost every game looks good today. I do believe though graphics have peaked and we don't need to push them anymore. ps4 graphics like red dead 2 at 60fps are good enough

Graphics are a decision too. Graphics from a game like A Short Hike are totally fine, even though it targets to be more like PS1 level. My example Dwarf Fortress has without mods (or the new Steam version) only a text interface. And people love that game. Expecting any graphical standard is bonkers, that actually is an artistic decision as much as many other decision made by the dev.

AAA games from developers have a different graphical  standard then a indie game trying to appeal to nostalgia. for example zelda yea it's cartoony and not going for realistic graphics but its only being held back by the hardware thats very dated at this point, it's just a fact.



SvennoJ on 26 May 2023
VAMatt said:
curl-6 said:

The thing is, while the graphics may not be high end, the game is actually an incredible technical achievement in terms of how big and complex it is while remaining almost entirely free of glitches and jank.
A lot of people in the industry are blown away by how Nintendo was able to pull this off, so it's arguable that in terms of design, the game is cutting edge.

Mnementh said:

Actually, should we in future call games dated, that don't employ the scope and ability to creatively combine your resources you see in TotK? Because you could say that is the new industry standard.

I agree with both of these comments. And, that's why I said in the OP that TotK makes the *Switch* feel dated.  The hardware is holding the game back, possibly pretty significantly, depending on how much one values great graphics. Many aspects of the game are a step, in some cases many steps, above most of the rest of the industry. But, the hardware is causing the graphics to be a couple of steps behind. Presumably, with more modern hardware, the graphics would also be great. 

Not just the graphics, the game also forgets everything you did when you walk out of range. That's also a limitation of the hardware and is holding the game back.



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RedKingXIII on 27 May 2023
SvennoJ said:
VAMatt said:

Mnementh said:

Actually, should we in future call games dated, that don't employ the scope and ability to creatively combine your resources you see in TotK? Because you could say that is the new industry standard.

I agree with both of these comments. And, that's why I said in the OP that TotK makes the *Switch* feel dated.  The hardware is holding the game back, possibly pretty significantly, depending on how much one values great graphics. Many aspects of the game are a step, in some cases many steps, above most of the rest of the industry. But, the hardware is causing the graphics to be a couple of steps behind. Presumably, with more modern hardware, the graphics would also be great. 

Not just the graphics, the game also forgets everything you did when you walk out of range. That's also a limitation of the hardware and is holding the game back.

I'm not sure if this really is a issue that's 'holding the game back'. It's true that it is a hardware limitation, but autobuild exists. If the game forgets you made something because you're too far away just go and use autobuild and with 3 button presses you can do again the things you built. You can even save favorites, or get schematics if you explore some areas of the game.



Pemalite on 27 May 2023
zeldaring said:
curl-6 said:

A Pro likely would've been a bigger investment than the OLED in terms of R&D and such, and harder to justify when you're already selling like crack.

If they did make a Pro, I'm pretty sure they could've made it work on much less than $600, it's not like they'd be printing the chips out of gold.

They could make it work but they would not make as much profit as they like. when you consider switch is ancient tech still selling for 300$. just kinda sad that you can get way better versions of Nintendo games on PC and not just talking about switch games.

Despite the Switch's price remaining static all these years... Technically it has come down in price as the purchasing power of a dollar has reduced thanks to inflation.

curl-6 said:

There's not much incentive for them to drop the Switch's price when it continues to sell well, that's just supply and demand.

Outside of the underperforming Xbox One or super cut down models like Switch Lite and probably soon the Series S, the days of consoles dropping down to really low prices seem to be over. Sony never dropped the PS4 under $300 either.

Components also increased in price thanks to supply/demand and covid.

Hence the PS5 and Xbox Series X price increase.

Older 16nm FF process by TSMC (That the Switch SoC is built on) is actually starting to increase in demand due to signalling chips (Think: 5G transceivers), RF systems, car automation, NAND and RAM and of course... Chinese cheap ARM SoC's taking up capacity.

zeldaring said:

Maybe you are right just find it hard to believe a system gets nearly maxed out a launch by a port of a  much weaker system. I honestly expected  BOTW2 to blow it out the water graphically.

A lot of Nintendo's engineering into Tears of the Kingdom was to build the expanded environment, working on the simulation and gameplay elements to make them feel seamless rather than overhauling the game engine...

Which like you alluded to, is built on Breath of the Wilds technical foundation... An engine optimized for Nintendo's previous generation console and technology...

Resolution+framerate bumps aren't always the most efficient use of extra hardware resources... And Tears of the Kingdom isn't using maxwell's built in hardware features in it's entirety either.

But I am glad Nintendo did... Whilst I am a graphics whore... It's a MASSIVE breath of fresh air to be able to pick up a game day 1 and not have it filled with bugs, crashes, glitches and horrific frame pacing.

Now to wait for the inevitable re-release FHD remaster on the next console. (As the current game isn't Full HD)



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

SvennoJ on 27 May 2023
RedKingXIII said:

I'm not sure if this really is a issue that's 'holding the game back'. It's true that it is a hardware limitation, but autobuild exists. If the game forgets you made something because you're too far away just go and use autobuild and with 3 button presses you can do again the things you built. You can even save favorites, or get schematics if you explore some areas of the game.

But that's a workaround for the lack of memory / storage space to add persistence to the world. Sure they turned it into a 'feauture' but I rather have persistence.



Wyrdness on 27 May 2023
SvennoJ said:
RedKingXIII said:

I'm not sure if this really is a issue that's 'holding the game back'. It's true that it is a hardware limitation, but autobuild exists. If the game forgets you made something because you're too far away just go and use autobuild and with 3 button presses you can do again the things you built. You can even save favorites, or get schematics if you explore some areas of the game.

But that's a workaround for the lack of memory / storage space to add persistence to the world. Sure they turned it into a 'feauture' but I rather have persistence.

No game is going to really have what you are asking for here as it's just not realistic to expect a huge game to log everything down especially in a game like this where the emergent possibilities are far higher than other games, ironically this game itself remembers more than games on more powerful platforms, as he said it's not really an issue holding the game back. 



VAMatt on 27 May 2023
SvennoJ said:
VAMatt said:

Mnementh said:

Actually, should we in future call games dated, that don't employ the scope and ability to creatively combine your resources you see in TotK? Because you could say that is the new industry standard.

I agree with both of these comments. And, that's why I said in the OP that TotK makes the *Switch* feel dated.  The hardware is holding the game back, possibly pretty significantly, depending on how much one values great graphics. Many aspects of the game are a step, in some cases many steps, above most of the rest of the industry. But, the hardware is causing the graphics to be a couple of steps behind. Presumably, with more modern hardware, the graphics would also be great. 

Not just the graphics, the game also forgets everything you did when you walk out of range. That's also a limitation of the hardware and is holding the game back.

How do you know that's a hardware limitation?  Has a dev stated this?   

Last edited by VAMatt - on 27 May 2023