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Forums - Sales Discussion - Famitsu Sales: Week 4, 2023 (16 Jan - 22 Jan)

curl-6 said:
Farsala said:

Regardless, it adds dev time. Crisis Core or MK11 would have released months earlier without extra platforms day 1 whether it be Switch or PS.

Even looking at those games more closely. MK11, I see that it cut corners compared to other games by not being able to be released in Japan.

Crisis Core was co developed by a partner studio Tose and SE.

Hinokami Chronicles was developed by Cyberconnect2, a 250 men Japanese developer specialized in anime fighting games. Where would they get the help to bring the Switch port forward 9 months?

Games from smaller devs release simultaneously on Switch and PS all the time, it's not some unworkable thing.

Yes and like I said that delays the release of the other version that is already ready.

Take Doom Eternal for example. Built from the ground up for PS/XB/PC and Switch, all announced at the same time and intended to be released on the same day. Id software could have delayed all versions to coincide with the release of the Panic Button developed Switch version. But they didn't want to wait 9 extra months.

Or more recently Hogwarts Legacy. Feb 10, for PS5/XBS/PC while April 4 for PS4/XB1 and finally July 25 for Switch. They developers could delay all releases in favor of the more difficult systems to develop for like the Switch or release as soon as the game is ready.



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Farsala said:
curl-6 said:

Games from smaller devs release simultaneously on Switch and PS all the time, it's not some unworkable thing.

Yes and like I said that delays the release of the other version that is already ready.

Take Doom Eternal for example. Built from the ground up for PS/XB/PC and Switch, all announced at the same time and intended to be released on the same day. Id software could have delayed all versions to coincide with the release of the Panic Button developed Switch version. But they didn't want to wait 9 extra months.

Or more recently Hogwarts Legacy. Feb 10, for PS5/XBS/PC while April 4 for PS4/XB1 and finally July 25 for Switch. They developers could delay all releases in favor of the more difficult systems to develop for like the Switch or release as soon as the game is ready.

Doom Eternal and Hogwarts Legacy are both high end games made to push much stronger hardware, we're talking about games like One Piece, Dragon Ball, or Demon Slayer here, much less complex and advanced titles.

There's no reason those would need anywhere near as much work, and even less if factored in and developed in tandem instead of building to PS spec first then porting from that.



curl-6 said:
Farsala said:

Regardless, it adds dev time. Crisis Core or MK11 would have released months earlier without extra platforms day 1 whether it be Switch or PS.

Even looking at those games more closely. MK11, I see that it cut corners compared to other games by not being able to be released in Japan.

Crisis Core was co developed by a partner studio Tose and SE.

Hinokami Chronicles was developed by Cyberconnect2, a 250 men Japanese developer specialized in anime fighting games. Where would they get the help to bring the Switch port forward 9 months?

Games from smaller devs release simultaneously on Switch and PS all the time, it's not some unworkable thing.

It's not, and  I do agree Japanese devs could be more proactive and agile, but it's also not as simple for them as people make out. Especially when everyone is doing based on what a game "looks like" versus how well it actually runs on the platform. All of the great Switch ports have taken a minimum of 6months of dedicated development and the average Japanese dev is not a technical powerhouse, aside from Square/Capcom, they've barely scratched the surface of what the PS4 could do...  A game could look like One piece but run worse on the PS5 than Horizon Forbidden West, optimisation is everything and JP devs are playing catch up here. 

Your point about them starting from the Switch as a baseline is valid but also its understandable why they would have been apprehensive. Firstly we have to acknowledge that many developers have seen their franchises peak globally by orientating them around the PS4. They established their Ips there, whilst Nintendo was struggling in the home console space. All home console development shifted to Playstation after the Wii and 3DS wasn't massive outside of Japan, so devs are comfortable with Playstation. Working on high-end spec hardware offers more marketing potential and can translate into a more hype (See Monster Hunter World and Tales of Arise).

Lastly any game releasing now, began development 3 years back at least... so there's also a level of prediction going on with what devs see as the relevant platforms in years to come. Many may not have felt certain of the Switches longevity. I personally thought the Switch would peak in 2019 after pokemon and then have quite a steep decline, I'm sure I'm not alone.  Either way the PS4 was the market leader in 2019 on a global scale. 

These are all just growing pains that will be resolved with Switch 2. Both due to evolving tech, but also because third parties will have gained trust in Nintendo's ability to create a thriving hybrid platform deserving of AA/AAA resources. In the past japanese devs were working with PS1/PS2 level budgets (3DS/DS/Wii)

Last edited by Otter - on 29 January 2023

Otter said:
curl-6 said:

Games from smaller devs release simultaneously on Switch and PS all the time, it's not some unworkable thing.

It's not, and  I do agree Japanese devs could be more proactive and agile, but it's also not as simple for them as people make out. Especially when everyone is doing based on what a game "looks like" versus how well it actually runs on the platform. All of the great Switch ports have taken a minimum of 6months of dedicated development and the average Japanese dev is not a technical powerhouse, aside from Square/Capcom, they've barely scratched the surface of what the PS4 could do...  A game could look like One piece but run worse on the PS5 than Horizon Forbidden West, optimisation is everything and JP devs are playing catch up here. 

Your point about them starting from the Switch as a baseline is valid but also its understandable why they would have been apprehensive. Firstly we have to acknowledge that many developers have seen their franchises peak globally by orientating them around the PS4. They established their Ips there, whilst Nintendo was struggling in the home console space. All home console development shifted to Playstation after the Wii and 3DS wasn't massive outside of Japan, so devs are comfortable with Playstation. Working on high-end spec hardware offers more marketing potential and can translate into a more hype (See Monster Hunter World and Tales of Arise).

Lastly any game releasing now, began development 3 years back at least... so there's also a level of prediction going on with what devs see as the relevant platforms in years to come. Many may not have felt certain of the Switches longevity. I personally thought the Switch would peak in 2019 after pokemon and then have quite a steep decline, I'm sure I'm not alone.  Either way the PS4 was the market leader in 2019 on a global scale. 

These are all just growing pains that will be resolved with Switch 2. Both due to evolving tech, but also because third parties will have gained trust in Nintendo's ability to create a thriving hybrid platform deserving of AA/AAA resources. In the past japanese devs were working with PS1/PS2 level budgets (3DS/DS/Wii)

Some interesting points here, thanks.

For games like Monster Hunter World, I get it, pursuing higher spec made sense in that regard. So does making stuff like Final Fantasy or Elden Ring for PS4/5. 

I guess where it makes less sense in my view is for games that don't lean into advanced graphics or great production values, and often end up coming to Switch later down the line anyway.



curl-6 said:
Farsala said:

Yes and like I said that delays the release of the other version that is already ready.

Take Doom Eternal for example. Built from the ground up for PS/XB/PC and Switch, all announced at the same time and intended to be released on the same day. Id software could have delayed all versions to coincide with the release of the Panic Button developed Switch version. But they didn't want to wait 9 extra months.

Or more recently Hogwarts Legacy. Feb 10, for PS5/XBS/PC while April 4 for PS4/XB1 and finally July 25 for Switch. They developers could delay all releases in favor of the more difficult systems to develop for like the Switch or release as soon as the game is ready.

Doom Eternal and Hogwarts Legacy are both high end games made to push much stronger hardware, we're talking about games like One Piece, Dragon Ball, or Demon Slayer here, much less complex and advanced titles.

There's no reason those would need anywhere near as much work, and even less if factored in and developed in tandem instead of building to PS spec first then porting from that.

From what I understand it is still significantly more difficult to optimize for the Switch even for low tech games. Small developers also have less people to work on ports.

The creators of Eiyuden Chronicle- 100 Heroes spoke out against low spec hardware. Here is a quote from their Kickstarter.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rabbitandbearstudios/eiyuden-chronicle-hundred-heroes/description

"The elephant in the room is that while nobody knows what Nintendo's plans are for when this game releases, in just about every major Japanese game crowdfunding campaign, when a lower spec hardware has been listed on the campaign, it has invariably been too expensive, often times requiring downgrading textures, massive amounts of code rewrites, effectively meaning building two games.

For anyone that has backed one of these campaigns, you obviously know the outcome. These platforms usually get cancelled or dropped from the campaign. So again, in keeping with 100% transparency for what is an incredibly difficult problem, if the console stretch goal is cleared, we will create a version of the game for Nintendo hardware.

Hopefully, that will be something akin to a Switch 2, allowing for similar quality and gameplay experiences across all platforms. In the end, if no such console is announced by the time we need to create new console version branches, we will go through the major challenges of the aforementioned texture changes and code rewrites, or refund any backers who pledged to the platform, if there is absolutely no solution."

This game is by all means not cutting edge, and even though they surpassed the kickstarter goal for the Switch version within days in 2020, they did not announce that they were making a Switch version until May 2022.

This is clear evidence of a developer explaining why Switch ports are very difficult compared to other platforms. Bold for emphasis.



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Otter said:
curl-6 said:

Games from smaller devs release simultaneously on Switch and PS all the time, it's not some unworkable thing.

It's not, and  I do agree Japanese devs could be more proactive and agile, but it's also not as simple for them as people make out. Especially when everyone is doing based on what a game "looks like" versus how well it actually runs on the platform. All of the great Switch ports have taken a minimum of 6months of dedicated development and the average Japanese dev is not a technical powerhouse, aside from Square/Capcom, they've barely scratched the surface of what the PS4 could do...  A game could look like One piece but run worse on the PS5 than Horizon Forbidden West, optimisation is everything and JP devs are playing catch up here. 

Your point about them starting from the Switch as a baseline is valid but also its understandable why they would have been apprehensive. Firstly we have to acknowledge that many developers have seen their franchises peak globally by orientating them around the PS4. They established their Ips there, whilst Nintendo was struggling in the home console space. All home console development shifted to Playstation after the Wii and 3DS wasn't massive outside of Japan, so devs are comfortable with Playstation. Working on high-end spec hardware offers more marketing potential and can translate into a more hype (See Monster Hunter World and Tales of Arise).

Lastly any game releasing now, began development 3 years back at least... so there's also a level of prediction going on with what devs see as the relevant platforms in years to come. Many may not have felt certain of the Switches longevity. I personally thought the Switch would peak in 2019 after pokemon and then have quite a steep decline, I'm sure I'm not alone.  Either way the PS4 was the market leader in 2019 on a global scale. 

These are all just growing pains that will be resolved with Switch 2. Both due to evolving tech, but also because third parties will have gained trust in Nintendo's ability to create a thriving hybrid platform deserving of AA/AAA resources. In the past japanese devs were working with PS1/PS2 level budgets (3DS/DS/Wii)

My only worry with the supposed successor to the Switch is that we DON’T see those growing pains being resolved as you’re hoping for. I'm hoping for that as well. Will we see games like Tales of Arise, One Piece Odyssey, Street Fighter VI, Final Fantasy VII Remake (and upcoming Rebirth), Resident Evil VII, VIII, 2R, 3R, and/or 4R, Kingdom Hearts series (not cloud versions), etc., come to the Switch successor if it’s as powerful as rumored/leaked?

I would like to say “mostly likely” or “yes,” to a majority (if not, all) of those games, but I don’t know if that’s gonna happen. Let’s say Capcom, for example, I could see them release Ultra Street Fighter IV on the Switch successor, but then leave it at that. Why? Because that’s basically what they did with releasing Ultra Street Fighter II (the anniversary collection is hard to count since it was multi platform anyway). That’s basically all that they released from Street Fighter on Switch, even though they could’ve reestablished a base there as the franchise has history with past Nintendo consoles.

The only other big game(s) I’m more confident in seeing even on the current Switch is the upcoming Dragon Quest 3Remake and even XII despite the latter being developed under Unreal Engine 5. Because Square Enix may still consider the console bases in Japan while developing XII and the Switch has already established itself as the console that started Square’s HD2D initiative so I don’t see any reason why DQ 3 Remake wouldn’t make it onto Switch and/or it’s successor.

I fear that the Switch successor will have to prove itself again. And that is despite the Switch not only dominating Japan, making even the PS4 look small by comparison (despite getting all the big AAA Japanese titles under the sun), but also on the verge of surpassing the PS4 in LTD worldwide sales despite the PS4 releasing a few years earlier with more hype at the start of its life. I hope to be wrong, but it’s hard to be optimistic about third party games on the potential successor.



Megiddo said:
123tbones said:

So after 9 consecutive weeks of Pokemon S/V being #1 on the charts, it has finally been dethroned. That's pretty impressive actually. Which other game had that kind of streak? I know Monster Hunter World had like a similar streak.

Nah, MHW didn't have anywhere near that kind of streak. Animal Crossing NH would be my guess as to something that had a similar streak.

ACNH had only 3 consecutive weeks at #1. Momotaro Dentetsu was #1 for 12 consecutive weeks and was dethroned by Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury.



ACNH is the Best selling game ever in Japan. I think that achievement is better than more weeks at #1



After 4 weeks PS5 is already 80k up on last year, 171k to 91k. If Sony can provide enough units then PS5 could sell 2 million in 2023, something that the PS4 couldn't achieve.

PS4 v PS5 Famitsu sales.

PS4

2014:
 926k (released Feb)
2015: 1.21 million
2016: 1.79 million
2017: 1.94 million
2018: 1.69 million
2019: 1.20 million
2020: 543k
2021: 104k
2022: 23k
Total: 9.42 mllion

PS5

2020:
 255k (released Nov)
2021: 968k
2022: 1.15 million



Farsala said:
curl-6 said:

Doom Eternal and Hogwarts Legacy are both high end games made to push much stronger hardware, we're talking about games like One Piece, Dragon Ball, or Demon Slayer here, much less complex and advanced titles.

There's no reason those would need anywhere near as much work, and even less if factored in and developed in tandem instead of building to PS spec first then porting from that.

From what I understand it is still significantly more difficult to optimize for the Switch even for low tech games. Small developers also have less people to work on ports.

The creators of Eiyuden Chronicle- 100 Heroes spoke out against low spec hardware. Here is a quote from their Kickstarter.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rabbitandbearstudios/eiyuden-chronicle-hundred-heroes/description

"The elephant in the room is that while nobody knows what Nintendo's plans are for when this game releases, in just about every major Japanese game crowdfunding campaign, when a lower spec hardware has been listed on the campaign, it has invariably been too expensive, often times requiring downgrading textures, massive amounts of code rewrites, effectively meaning building two games.

For anyone that has backed one of these campaigns, you obviously know the outcome. These platforms usually get cancelled or dropped from the campaign. So again, in keeping with 100% transparency for what is an incredibly difficult problem, if the console stretch goal is cleared, we will create a version of the game for Nintendo hardware.

Hopefully, that will be something akin to a Switch 2, allowing for similar quality and gameplay experiences across all platforms. In the end, if no such console is announced by the time we need to create new console version branches, we will go through the major challenges of the aforementioned texture changes and code rewrites, or refund any backers who pledged to the platform, if there is absolutely no solution."

This game is by all means not cutting edge, and even though they surpassed the kickstarter goal for the Switch version within days in 2020, they did not announce that they were making a Switch version until May 2022.

This is clear evidence of a developer explaining why Switch ports are very difficult compared to other platforms. Bold for emphasis.

The same team later changed their mind and decided to bring Hundred Heroes to Switch though: 

https://www.gematsu.com/2022/05/eiyuden-chronicle-hundred-heroes-adds-switch-version

Also a key word is "port". If a game is built from the ground up for much stronger hardware than naturally work will have to be done to adapt it, but if you build it for the Switch from the start, that won't be necessary. 

Most non-AAA Japanese games have a Switch version, and most of them come out the same day as the PS version.

Last edited by curl-6 - on 29 January 2023