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Forums - Nintendo - Bayonetta OG Voice Actress Calls For Boycott of Bayonetta 3

Nuvendil said:

The relationship with Nintendo does make it complicated.  They are publishing the game, but presumably they split that with Platinum in some fashion.  Well, Platinum and Sega.  Because it isn't actually first pary, Nintendo is acting as publisher, they still have an outside partner in Platinum and Sega they have to split with.  At least, that would be my understanding.  But if Platinum is paid up front, then that means they basically don't "make" anything on Bayonetta, Nintendo just funds their development plus tosses in extra after sales.  At any rate, Bayo 1 was a normal 3rd party release so my estimate there is probably still solid.  Could be a bit higher.

If Bayonetta 2 sold that much, that does help.  But the revenue still comes up way, way short.  And everything else I said still stands.  This is not some juggernaut money maker.  And most of that revenue either got sunk into marketing and merchandise and reinvestment into the company (Bayo 1) or sliced up into multiple pieces to satisfy various partners (Bayo 2 (as well as all that other stuff, though Bayo 2 was more restrained)).  

Oh and that breakdown is based on simple percentages that are pretty standard and has never, to my knowledge, been disputed. 

My broader point was, the revenue is way short of 450, let alone the profit.  And if you want to try and make estimates, use actual data.  Don't just pull numbers out of thin air.  I was doing a quick estimate with numbers from memory, you could do a more methodical one and get a more accurate picture.  But that picture isn't going to look anything like nearly half a billion. 

Nintendo fully owns the rights to Bayonetta 2 and 3. Sega owns the rights to the characters and setting and who can use them and Bayonetta 1. Platinum is only the developer and likely sees very little profits outside of some bonuses for lead developers/executives. One of Kamiya's rules on his twitter is that you can't ask about Bayonetta because Platinum Games doesn't own the IP. 

Nuvendil said:

My broader point was, the revenue is way short of 450, let alone the profit.  And if you want to try and make estimates, use actual data.  Don't just pull numbers out of thin air.  I was doing a quick estimate with numbers from memory, you could do a more methodical one and get a more accurate picture.  But that picture isn't going to look anything like nearly half a billion. 

Right, it is pretty obvious that the franchise isn't worth half a billion. It still doesn't change her general point though. Nintendo's likely netting a profit in the tens of million on this title (potentially two-three times the cost of development.) They can afford a few extra thousand towards VA staff rather than that going into investor dividends. That the number doesn't add up to $450 million in revenue doesn't change that point. 

Last edited by sc94597 - on 16 October 2022

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sc94597 said:

Profits are likely fine given that Bayonetta 2 has never dropped below $45 new and has sold about 2 million copies together on Wii U and Switch. With an estimated budget of $10 to $15 million dollars (maybe add a few million more for the port work) that leaves a ROI of probably 2-3 times after paying the merchants, with Nintendo getting the bulk of it but probably also Sega getting significant royalty fees for leasing the IP to Nintendo. 

Where are you getting those numbers? 

Nuvendil said:

The relationship with Nintendo does make it complicated.  They are publishing the game, but presumably they split that with Platinum in some fashion.  Well, Platinum and Sega.  Because it isn't actually first pary, Nintendo is acting as publisher, they still have an outside partner in Platinum and Sega they have to split with.  At least, that would be my understanding.  But if Platinum is paid up front, then that means they basically don't "make" anything on Bayonetta, Nintendo just funds their development plus tosses in extra after sales.  At any rate, Bayo 1 was a normal 3rd party release so my estimate there is probably still solid.  Could be a bit higher.

If Bayonetta 2 sold that much, that does help.  But the revenue still comes up way, way short.  And everything else I said still stands.  This is not some juggernaut money maker.  And most of that revenue either got sunk into marketing and merchandise and reinvestment into the company (Bayo 1) or sliced up into multiple pieces to satisfy various partners (Bayo 2 (as well as all that other stuff, though Bayo 2 was more restrained)).  

Oh and that breakdown is based on simple percentages that are pretty standard and has never, to my knowledge, been disputed. 

My broader point was, the revenue is way short of 450, let alone the profit.  And if you want to try and make estimates, use actual data.  Don't just pull numbers out of thin air.  I was doing a quick estimate with numbers from memory, you could do a more methodical one and get a more accurate picture.  But that picture isn't going to look anything like nearly half a billion. 

Exactly what I've been saying. Also nobody is bringing up the Bayonetta movie adaptation that flopped hard. I'm sure that costed them as well. 



Question: if hellenor Taylor was payed unfairly or something along those lines, why didn't her union do anything

Is she not a part of sag aftra, should they not have been helping and protecting her?



Shatts said:
sc94597 said:

Profits are likely fine given that Bayonetta 2 has never dropped below $45 new and has sold about 2 million copies together on Wii U and Switch. With an estimated budget of $10 to $15 million dollars (maybe add a few million more for the port work) that leaves a ROI of probably 2-3 times after paying the merchants, with Nintendo getting the bulk of it but probably also Sega getting significant royalty fees for leasing the IP to Nintendo. 

Where are you getting those numbers? 

https://www.destructoid.com/platinum-games-to-self-publish-two-healthy-sized-games/

Speaking with GameInformer, Platinum’s head of development Atsushi Inaba has spoken of the balance the studio is trying to find between Indie-level productions and big-budget, big publisher titles. “We can’t put together a AAA, $10 million-plus game, because we just don’t have that sort of cash as an independent developer,” said Inaba. “However, we don’t plan to go the indies route with just a few people on a team making a game, so it’ll be somewhere in the middle, looking at probably about 20 people on the staff making the game, so that’ll still be a healthy (size)”.



Kneetos said:

Question: if hellenor Taylor was payed unfairly or something along those lines, why didn't her union do anything

Is she not a part of sag aftra, should they not have been helping and protecting her?

She is not American and doesn't live in the U.S. SAGAFTRA is an American union. Its full name is "Screen Actors Guild - American Federation of Television and Radio Artists.Not sure if she is covered by a British union. 



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sc94597 said:
Kneetos said:

Question: if hellenor Taylor was payed unfairly or something along those lines, why didn't her union do anything

Is she not a part of sag aftra, should they not have been helping and protecting her?

She is not American and doesn't live in the U.S. SAGAFTRA is an American union. Its full name is "Screen Actors Guild - American Federation of Television and Radio Artists.Not sure if she is covered by a British union. 

Ah, thanks

I thought that union was worldwide



mZuzek said:
Kakadu18 said:

About the other part, 4k may have been to low, but that still depends on the number of hours she was expected to work.

And this is exactly where your point falls apart. You're basing your entire argument on the idea that, for 16 hours of work, $4000 is a standard pay rate (based on an outdated source referring to non-main characters). I highly doubt that she'd record the whole game in only 16 hours, given how long this game has been in development and how it has multiple Bayonettas, she'd probably have way more work than in the first one.

GoOnKid said:

I wonder what all other actors in that game got paid and if they got even less than Taylor. I never imagined that voice actors are paid so little. But then again, I always assumed that they need to be in a studio for several weeks. Guess I was wrong. Of course that always depends on the game. I'd imagine Charles Martinet would be in the studio for half an hour at best and that's all there is needed for the next Mario game. But a big RPG like Xenoblade Chronicles requires a whole lot of work and time to record all the lines.

It really seems to vary wildly. I didn't think something like Bayonetta (the first one) would've taken only 4 days to record in its entirety, either way I still think Bayonetta 3 would've taken longer. The closest I've followed the behind-the-scenes of voice actors was with the cast of Guardians of the Galaxy, all of whom worked on the game for several years (albeit with mo-cap, not just voice acting, but still).

Hellena Taylor literally gave an interview in 2018 where she said she did the entire recording for Bayonetta in 4 4-hour sessions.  So yes, it was 16 total hours.  It was posted in this thread already.  Based on what I know, that is pretty common for voice acting.  They come in near the end of the project, do all of the recording in a couple of days, and are done.  Mo-cap work is completely different.

I already posted the current SAG-AFTRA rates.  Nothing outdated about them.  They basically wanted to pay her scale, and no more.  She thought she was worth more, so she turned it down.  The theories I've seen floating around on that are basically they wanted to switch to Hale, and this was a "go away" price.  For a live action example, look at what happened with Terrance Howard between Iron Man 1 and 2.  They wanted him out, so they low-balled him.

The one piece we are really missing in all this, is what Hellena Taylor was paid for Bayonetta 1 and 2.  I want to know why she didn't give that information.

Last edited by theRepublic - on 16 October 2022

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sc94597 said:
Shatts said:

Where are you getting those numbers? 

https://www.destructoid.com/platinum-games-to-self-publish-two-healthy-sized-games/

Speaking with GameInformer, Platinum’s head of development Atsushi Inaba has spoken of the balance the studio is trying to find between Indie-level productions and big-budget, big publisher titles. “We can’t put together a AAA, $10 million-plus game, because we just don’t have that sort of cash as an independent developer,” said Inaba. “However, we don’t plan to go the indies route with just a few people on a team making a game, so it’ll be somewhere in the middle, looking at probably about 20 people on the staff making the game, so that’ll still be a healthy (size)”.

Honestly that can mean anything. He didn't specify Bayonetta, and he probs meant $10 million is the minimum for AAA from that statement. Bayonetta is action heavy, hack and slash genre. For reference God of War III, a similar hack and slash game that released on the PS3 a year after Bayonetta 1 costed $44 million to make. I highly doubt Bayonetta is a $10 million game but I have no decisive evidence either. 

God of War budget 
Source



theRepublic said:
mZuzek said:

I already posted the current SAG-AFTRA rates.  Nothing outdated about them.  They basically wanted to pay her scale, and no more.  She thought she was worth more, so she turned it down.  The theories I've seen floating around on that are basically they wanted to switch to Hale, and this was a "go away" price.  For a live action example, look at what happened with Terrance Howard between Iron Man 1 and 2.  They wanted him out, so they low-balled him.

Remember, they initially wanted to pay her below SAG-AFTRA rates. It is only after she sent a letter that they decided $4,000 was their final offer. And the rates you posted had $500-$700 bonus pay beyond $4,000. 

She is also non-American and therefore not part of SAG-AFTRA. 



Shatts said:
sc94597 said:

https://www.destructoid.com/platinum-games-to-self-publish-two-healthy-sized-games/

Speaking with GameInformer, Platinum’s head of development Atsushi Inaba has spoken of the balance the studio is trying to find between Indie-level productions and big-budget, big publisher titles. “We can’t put together a AAA, $10 million-plus game, because we just don’t have that sort of cash as an independent developer,” said Inaba. “However, we don’t plan to go the indies route with just a few people on a team making a game, so it’ll be somewhere in the middle, looking at probably about 20 people on the staff making the game, so that’ll still be a healthy (size)”.

Honestly that can mean anything. He didn't specify Bayonetta, and he probs meant $10 million is the minimum for AAA from that statement. Bayonetta is action heavy, hack and slash genre. For reference God of War III, a similar hack and slash game that released on the PS3 a year after Bayonetta 1 costed $44 million to make. I highly doubt Bayonetta is a $10 million game but I have no decisive evidence either. 

1. God of War was a long established franchise by the time III released. 

2. It was one of Sony's top IP's and its prequels sold very well on the PS2.

3. Bayonetta was a new IP pushed by a new independent developer. Bayonetta 2 was a revived IP given a second chance to prove itself. 

4. Platinum games is somewhat smaller than Santa Monica studios, and had multiple titles in development at the same time as Bayonetta 1 and 2. Development costs are primarily labor costs. 

5. AAA titles worked on by Platinun Games tend to just barely break the "AAA" barrier. Nier Automata was considered a financial success when it broke the 1 million sales barrier and that game definitely has a bigger budget than Bayonetta 2. 

$10-15 million for development and a few more for Nintendo's anemic marketing sounds about right. But even if it were $20-$25 million, with 1.9 million sales Nintendo definitely made a healthy profit.