By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Bayonetta OG Voice Actress Calls For Boycott of Bayonetta 3

Shatts said:

Bayonetta was never big, always niche probs barely making profits, it had its struggles and she's trying to make it worse. How does that help. Do you think Platinum Games is profiting huge from this like she claims? Or Nintendo? Sega? No, and it's very possible that they're even losing money with this franchise. And that's the reality. 

The bolded describes the status of the franchise 10 years ago when Sega was the publisher, definitely not today. 

Bayonetta isn't a Pokemon or a Mario, but it is still a decently known IP and franchise amongst an industry that is no longer very niche. 

Profits are likely fine given that Bayonetta 2 has never dropped below $45 new and has sold about 2 million copies together on Wii U and Switch. With an estimated budget of $10 to $15 million dollars (maybe add a few million more for the port work) that leaves a ROI of probably 2-3 times after paying the merchants, with Nintendo getting the bulk of it but probably also Sega getting significant royalty fees for leasing the IP to Nintendo. 

A company making tens of millions of profit on a game can afford a few thousand dollars to make sure their VA staff is content. Nintendo has always been stingy about VA budgets though. It's the original reason why most of their games didn't even have it until recently, and where they do have it there isn't much dialogue. It's literally shaped their internal game development philosophy. It wouldn't be surprising to me if Nintendo told Platinum this is your budget, Platinum tried to short Hellena, when she refused there was a mini-crisis Nintendo increased the budget significantly and then they were able to hire Jennifer with the larger budget. The fact that they're paying Jennifer obviously a higher fee, implies they could easily have paid Hellena that in the first place. But like with most companies during the pandemic they thought they could get away with lowballing it. 

Last edited by sc94597 - on 16 October 2022

Around the Network
sc94597 said:
Kakadu18 said:

Apparently the VA work for the first Bayonetta was only 16 hours, 4 sessions of four hours each. Union standard pay is apparently around $1000 for 4 hours, which means if the work required for Bayonetta 3 is similar, they wanted to pay her an industry standard sum. She has no track record in gaming VA appart from Bayonetta, but she still felt like she deserved more than most others make. She clearly thinks she's more important than she really is. Her comments toward Jennifer Hale show her overinflated ego even more. Bayonetta was not created by her, she judt read the lines.

Do you have a source for this union standard pay? The article I found, referencing 2018 prices, seems to contradict this estimate you're giving. 4k for 16 hours was standard for any character, but main characters could potentially get more. And if the unions haven't negotiated higher pay in the last four years, then they are pretty bad unions given how rampant inflation has been. 

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/audio/q-a-an-indie-dev-s-guide-to-hiring-casting-and-directing-voice-actors

"Pro studios might offer between $200-300 per hour for a 1-2 hour minimum session, and it's not unreasonable to expect to be paid between $500-$700 as a main character in a fully voiced, full length visual novel."

And while she has a pretty sparce track record, having been VA for the first two games definitely is a bonus in her favor. Remember, they initially tried to pay her less than 4k.

Here are the current rates:

https://www.sagaftra.org/files/2020InteractiveRateSheetFinal.pdf

Looks like it would be 956.75 per day for a 4-hour day.  That doesn't prevent them from paying more, but it looks like they wanted to offer her the minimum for whatever reason.



Switch Code: SW-7377-9189-3397 -- Nintendo Network ID: theRepublic -- Steam ID: theRepublic

Now Playing
Switch - Super Mario Maker 2 (2019)
Switch - The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening (2019)
Switch - Bastion (2011/2018)
3DS - Star Fox 64 3D (2011)
3DS - Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney (Trilogy) (2005/2014)
Wii U - Darksiders: Warmastered Edition (2010/2017)
Mobile - The Simpson's Tapped Out and Yugioh Duel Links
PC - Deep Rock Galactic (2020)

theRepublic said:

Here are the current rates:

https://www.sagaftra.org/files/2020InteractiveRateSheetFinal.pdf

Looks like it would be 956.75 per day for a 4-hour day.  That doesn't prevent them from paying more, but it looks like they wanted to offer her the minimum for whatever reason.

It looks like there is a standard bonus structure too.

 

So $175 per session, or $550 aggregated on the 4th session "paid to all principal performers no later than the release date of the game." 

Makes one wonder what the initial offer was given that $4,000 (+ $550 - $700 bonus) is the union minimum for four sessions. Although as British person, these rates probably don't apply to her. 



One thing I just realized by watching the last Bayo 3 trailer: in Bayonetta 3, there are MULTIPLE Bayonettas. That means, it's very likely that the voice actress would have more lines to work with and with different registers. Which means more time, more work and a harder job.

This 4k number seems more and more shameful as time passes. I don't even want to know how much Platinum wanted to pay Hellena at first.

Jesus, no wonder she's mad...

Last edited by Vodacixi - on 16 October 2022

67 copies of the game sold at $60 would clear $4,000 in revenues ( I know not all goes back to the dev or publisher). This games is going to sell waaaaaaaaay more than that.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1gWECYYOSo

Please Watch/Share this video so it gets shown in Hollywood.

Around the Network

It isn't my job to help a stranger get a pay raise. That is her role and responsibility. People are making something out of nothing



So I see some people trying to calculate total revenue Platinum got from Bayonetta.  It's worth noting the actual breakdown of sales, both physical and digital.  The breakdown is about this:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-60186931fa6306b13009f5b3d2fe8e25.webp

So Platinum could expect about $27 to $35 per unit sold at $60 depending on returns and other variables.  Digital is much better as they only have to pay the platform fee, which for consoles is typically somewhere around $15 ot $20 so they make between $40 to $45 on each sale there.

If we assume the first game skewed heavily physical - a wise very good assumption - and a large chunk of games were sold at lower prices, they probably made, on average $20 to $25 a copy, maybe a bit more.  

Bayonetta 2 held its price better and had a better digital splut but also sold much less.  So if we assume a 60/40 physical to digital split - probabaly being generous to digital honestly - that gives them an average of somewhere around $37 a copy (being generous again here).  

These are rough estimates but you could get more precise if you want.  Either way, the numbers come up way short of 450 mil.  Witha little over 2 mil sold for Bayo 1 (let's ballpark it at 2.25), we have a grand total of 56.25 mil.  For Bayo 2, which has sold a bit over 1 mil total (lets go with 1.5mil), you got 54 mil.  So grand total revenue they saw from sales of the games was 110.25 mil.  Over 13 years.  And that's revenue.  For profit, you gotta subtract the cost of development and cost of marketing and so on.  

Now there is merchandise and other things to add a bit to this, but Bayo was a more cult series than a big hit.  The first gamw in particular was a smaller success than anticipated, which often has serious consequences when it comes to merchandise as an overabundance is produced.  This in tandem with marketing cost is probably what caused it to be viewed as a financial failure

Long story short, the 450 mil is utter bogus that literally anyone genuinely curious about the revenue the series has made would know was way off.  Unless said person just wanted to drum up controversy and sympathy by painting a patently false representation of the situation by implying Platinum has some dragon's hoard of Bayo money that doesn't exist stashed away.  

Last edited by Nuvendil - on 16 October 2022

Kakadu18 said:

About the other part, 4k may have been to low, but that still depends on the number of hours she was expected to work.

And this is exactly where your point falls apart. You're basing your entire argument on the idea that, for 16 hours of work, $4000 is a standard pay rate (based on an outdated source referring to non-main characters). I highly doubt that she'd record the whole game in only 16 hours, given how long this game has been in development and how it has multiple Bayonettas, she'd probably have way more work than in the first one.

GoOnKid said:

I wonder what all other actors in that game got paid and if they got even less than Taylor. I never imagined that voice actors are paid so little. But then again, I always assumed that they need to be in a studio for several weeks. Guess I was wrong. Of course that always depends on the game. I'd imagine Charles Martinet would be in the studio for half an hour at best and that's all there is needed for the next Mario game. But a big RPG like Xenoblade Chronicles requires a whole lot of work and time to record all the lines.

It really seems to vary wildly. I didn't think something like Bayonetta (the first one) would've taken only 4 days to record in its entirety, either way I still think Bayonetta 3 would've taken longer. The closest I've followed the behind-the-scenes of voice actors was with the cast of Guardians of the Galaxy, all of whom worked on the game for several years (albeit with mo-cap, not just voice acting, but still).



Nuvendil said:

So I see some people trying to calculate total revenue Platinum got from Bayonetta.  It's worth noting the actual breakdown of sales, both physical and digital.  The breakdown is about this:

So Platinum could expect about $27 to $35 per unit sold at $60 depending on returns and other variables.  Digital is much better as they only have to pay the platform fee, which for consoles is typically somewhere around $15 ot $20 so they make between $40 to $45 on each sale there.

If we assume the first game skewed heavily physical - a wise very good assumption - and a large chunk of games were sold at lower prices, they probably made, on average $20 to $25 a copy, maybe a bit more.  

Bayonetta 2 held its price better and had a better digital splut but also sold much less.  So if we assume a 60/40 physical to digital split - probabaly being generous to digital honestly - that gives them an average of somewhere around $37 a copy (being generous again here).  

That breakdown (which originates from OnLive -- the defunct streaming service with a motivation to skew the estimates) only really applies to third-party games where the developer retains IP rights. It is likely that Nintendo's agreement with Platinum (and Sega) given that Nintendo owns the rights to Bayonetta 2 and 3, is that the bulk of revenue goes to Nintendo and Nintendo will fund the development, with maybe some profit-sharing for Platinum's executives/lead developers and a royalty fee going to Sega. 

Bayonetta 2 being a 1st party game means there are no platform fees as Nintendo is the platform licenser who charges the fee. That puts the minimum revenue per sale for a retail Bayonetta 2 game at $34 (assuming the $15 merchant fee, $7 returns, and $4 cost of goods hold true and the full sale price of $60/$50.) A digital title wouldn't have the $15 merchant fee, $7 returns, and far lower than $4 cost of goods (basically the per download maintenance cost of the servers.) That'd probably mean somewhere around $50 going to Nintendo for a $60 digital sale and mid-$40s going to Nintendo for $50 digital sale, depending on Sega's cut.  

Bayonetta 2 sold nearly 2 million on both platforms (1.08 million on Switch, .85 million on Wii U.) 

If we assume Nintendo got $45 per digital sale, and $34 per physical sale on average, and the 6:4 distribution you noted that'd give total revenue for Bayo 2 going to Nintendo of about $78 million, likely two-three times the cost of development. 

Last edited by sc94597 - on 16 October 2022

sc94597 said:
Nuvendil said:

So I see some people trying to calculate total revenue Platinum got from Bayonetta.  It's worth noting the actual breakdown of sales, both physical and digital.  The breakdown is about this:

So Platinum could expect about $27 to $35 per unit sold at $60 depending on returns and other variables.  Digital is much better as they only have to pay the platform fee, which for consoles is typically somewhere around $15 ot $20 so they make between $40 to $45 on each sale there.

If we assume the first game skewed heavily physical - a wise very good assumption - and a large chunk of games were sold at lower prices, they probably made, on average $20 to $25 a copy, maybe a bit more.  

Bayonetta 2 held its price better and had a better digital splut but also sold much less.  So if we assume a 60/40 physical to digital split - probabaly being generous to digital honestly - that gives them an average of somewhere around $37 a copy (being generous again here).  

That breakdown (which originates from OnLive -- the defunct streaming service with a motivation to skew the estimates) only really applies to third-party games where the developer retains IP rights. It is likely that Nintendo's agreement with Platinum (and Sega) is that the bulk of revenue goes to Nintendo and Nintendo will fund the development, with maybe some profit-sharing for Platinum's executives/lead developers and a royalty fee going to Sega. 

Bayonetta 2 being a 1st party game means there are no platform fees as Nintendo is the platform licenser who charges the fee. That puts the minimum revenue per sale for a retail Bayonetta 2 game at $34 (assuming the $15 merchant fee, $7 returns, and $4 cost of goods hold true and the full sale price of $60/$50.) A digital title wouldn't have the $15 merchant fee, $7 returns, and far lower than $4 cost of goods (basically the per download maintenance cost of the servers.) That'd probably mean somewhere around $50 going to Nintendo for a $60 digital sale and mid-$40s going to Nintendo for $50 digital sale, depending on Sega's cut. 

Bayonetta 2 sold nearly 2 million on both platforms (1.08 million on Switch, .85 million on Wii U.) 

The relationship with Nintendo does make it complicated.  They are publishing the game, but presumably they split that with Platinum in some fashion.  Well, Platinum and Sega.  Because it isn't actually first pary, Nintendo is acting as publisher, they still have an outside partner in Platinum and Sega they have to split with.  At least, that would be my understanding.  But if Platinum is paid up front, then that means they basically don't "make" anything on Bayonetta, Nintendo just funds their development plus tosses in extra after sales.  At any rate, Bayo 1 was a normal 3rd party release so my estimate there is probably still solid.  Could be a bit higher.

If Bayonetta 2 sold that much, that does help.  But the revenue still comes up way, way short.  And everything else I said still stands.  This is not some juggernaut money maker.  And most of that revenue either got sunk into marketing and merchandise and reinvestment into the company (Bayo 1) or sliced up into multiple pieces to satisfy various partners (Bayo 2 (as well as all that other stuff, though Bayo 2 was more restrained)).  

Oh and that breakdown is based on simple percentages that are pretty standard and has never, to my knowledge, been disputed. 

My broader point was, the revenue is way short of 450, let alone the profit.  And if you want to try and make estimates, use actual data.  Don't just pull numbers out of thin air.  I was doing a quick estimate with numbers from memory, you could do a more methodical one and get a more accurate picture.  But that picture isn't going to look anything like nearly half a billion.