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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Mario + Rabbids: Sparks of Hope revealed for Switch, coming 2022

I thought the first game was pretty good, but I've never been a fan of the Rabbids as characters. This game looks phenomenal so far, and a LOT different than the original. It really looks like they've expanded on it tremendously, and I'm excited to see what more they do with it. I'm a big fan of tactical strategy games, and the first one set a good foundation even if some of the level design toward the end wasn't as good. This definitely looks even better!



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Metallox said:
AngryLittleAlchemist said:

The first game was so bland and boring. It had a few good humorous moments but it felt so 'artificial'. If you didn't have the context of the creator literally crying at E3 it would seem like the most inhuman product imaginable. Bland writing, ESPECIALLY bland music and a fairly repetitive set up. Good gameplay though. I think it says a lot that most of the discussion online is still about how "surprising it was that it was decent" and not whether or not it's actually a great game.

It had a very good foundation but the most bland structure was ressurected on top of it. This game would have to be at least 1.4x better to be worth a damn.

The game got an 85 in Metacritic, not only that but the talk in the aftermath was that it was surprising the game turned out to be that great, though of course many were careful to use more reserved words like decent and discreet. In the end, there is a wide range of opinions.

But thinking about it now, I lean more towards your thoughts regarding the game, it's one I wouldn't really want to play again, and there wasn't anything striking I would write home about. However, I wouldn't be so harsh in calling it bland and boring. Bland, I don't think it isn't, it's got some nice art and the humorous undertone is fair enough. Boring, well, I thoroughly enjoyed my time with it, not enough to beat the endgame content and download the DLC, but I felt well served. 

Yea the way I worded that part of my comment was not particularly good. What I meant wasn't that I don't see anyone talk about how good/great the game is. Moreso that the merit of how good or great it is is almost always prefaced with how surprising it was that it wasn't bad. And in a way maybe that's why the game left me cold, I wasn't surprised that it had its merits. I wasn't really super skeptical of the project to be honest, which probably left me with no feeling of surprise or reassurance once I actually played the game. 



Today I learned that plot is not the same as story. My life is up side down now.



Grant Kirkhope is doing the music again!



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

Nautilus said:

Grant Kirkhope is doing the music again!

Excellent! The first game had a great soundtrack.



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AngryLittleAlchemist said:
JWeinCom said:

"The first game was so bland and boring. It had a few good humorous moments but it felt so 'artificial'. If you didn't have the context of the creator literally crying at E3 it would seem like the most inhuman product imaginable. Bland writing, ESPECIALLY bland music and a fairly repetitive set up."

Yes, you did mention the writing. The first and third bolded sections I took to be references to the story, which I feel was pretty reasonable. Either way, referencing the "bland writing" clearly speaks to the story. So... yeah, according to your post, that was part of why you thought the game was bland. If that's not what you meant, then that is a flaw in your writing.

Your second post specifically complained about the story, saying it should have been more interesting. This is a position that you clearly took, so I took one sentence to address it. Of the nine sentence post, one talked about the story, two about the music, and six were about the game's structure. You ignored everything I said except for the one sentence about the story then criticized me for trying to make the conversation about the story O_o...................... So yeah, If I was trying to force you into taking some position about the story, then I would have indeed been doing a terrible job of it. Which maybe should indicate that's not what I was trying to do. 

No longer care about what you think of the game but please do not accuse me of any kind of dishonesty ^_^

Ok, I don't want this conversation to go down a path of trying to one up each other, which is clearly what I've invited and what you are doing right now. So I'll just say: I'm not sure if you're being intellectually dishonest here, or if there's a failure of communication from both sides that is at fault. So I'll take back my implication of dishonesty from earlier. 

When you talked about story, it seemed pretty obvious to me that you were talking about the plot of the game. Now, story and plot are two different things: One is a lot more general, the other is centered around the main events of a story. Before you say it's not fair of me to criticize your posts as feeling similar to "entrapment" or being false equivalencies because of an interpretation on my part, let me remind you that your own post that I'm replying to admits to having done so. That's not to say that you should feel bad about that, just that we're clear it's perfectly acceptable when talking about each others writings to bring up interpretation, because a specific interpretation could be at fault of the person writing, not just the interpreter. 

The reason it seemed pretty obvious that you were talking about plot is the limitations you kept putting on the game. In fact, no, you basically admit to talking about plot with how you describe potential criticisms of the story.

"Did you expect a crossover between Rabbids, who communicate only in screams, and Mario characters to have a rich and nuanced story? If so, I think the problems lied with your expectations"

"As for the story, I'm really not sure what you could have expected in a crossover between a group of characters that only scream, and a group that is mostly mute. "

The way you are narrowing down elements of the "story" is the same way you'd narrow down criticisms of the games plot. You even separate in this very reply  my first comment ("few good humorous moments but it felt so 'artificial'") from my second one ("Bland writing") on the basis of:

"The first and third bolded sections I took to be references to the story, which I feel was pretty reasonable. Either way, referencing the "bland writing" clearly speaks to the story."

You see how you separate the difference between comedy criticisms and "bland writing" because you think the first could potentially have to do with the story but you know the second one does have to do with the story? That's the exact issue, you "know" the second one has to be about the story, because to you it seems like a plot-centric criticism. When technically ... every skit, joke, bit, it's all part of the story. You are conflating story with plot and assuming my "bland writing" comment has to do with criticisms of the plot. It doesn't. It's about the humor and skits and character side-interactions of the game. I don't care that much about the plot or the major events, most Mario games have bog standard plots anyways. Yes, I did entertain your point and say that I guess the plot could have been better, but that's the point of entertaining a criticism: Testing whether or not you agree with something, even if it's not really what you're talking about to begin with. It's not really something that affected the game's enjoyment too much for me, but I guess I could agree it's a flaw, even if that's not what I was referring to in my original comments at all. And that's what we're arguing about: my original comments. 

The only technicality you have to win on is that you kept saying "story", in which case the literal definition of a story would encompass those things, but again, how you characterized possible criticisms of the story literally fit the definition of plot criticisms (and I know those two words are often used as synonyms, but generally story is much more broad, and I am using the more literal definitions). Because even though you didn't say "main events", you were very specific to separate stuff like side-gags and comedy from the "bland writing" criticism, and even kept defending the Rabbids on a basis of how limited they are from the perspective of potential story capabilities. You are at the very least using a definition of "story" that I'm not ascribing to, nor am I criticizing the game based off that definition. Unless you are implying that character interactions and comedy can only have a certain level of quality with the kind of archetype the Rabbids and Mario's crew are? In which case that's hard to defend: That is either saying there's a kind of limitation of writing quality that doesn't really exist for these character archetypes (tons of great comedy and character interactions in things as silly as the Rabbids), or admitting that the fundamental nature of the Rabbids handicaps how good the comedy can be. Either way, it's a loss. At the very least, you should realize that story is all-encompassing enough that criticisms of side-gags, comedy, and random character interactions can fit in the definition of "story" without being criticisms of the story not being nuanced enough, or having archetypes that prohibit potential plot nuance. In the end, you either conflated plot and story, or are using a definition you didn't elaborate on that isn't the standard definition, or aren't expressing yourself very well, in any case I'd say that's a flaw in your writing, no? 

So just to be clear before moving on: No, my comments about the "writing" and "story" up to this point do not refer to the extremely confined definition of story you are using for this discussion. 

And come on man, I think even you can admit it's not fair to say I "ignored the rest of your comment" when I literally said that I'd be fine giving a detailed response to the rest of it and why I don't like the game very much. That's the exact opposite of ignoring it. I gave you an opportunity to say you wanted to hear me out. I didn't just write a wall of text because I know how those conversations tend to go down: Either the other person becomes disinterested once you elaborate, or they focus on one specific sentence and try to misconstrue it into some indefensible fallacy. And you kind of already proved that point by admitting disinterest in the topic, though you could blame me for it I suppose. 

It's especially funny because you actually didn't address my point about the incredibly lackluster roster, which was you ignoring it. Don't get me wrong, I understand that conversations can flow naturally and sometimes it doesn't make sense to reply to every point a person makes. But that's exactly it: you technically ignored me, whereas I opened up the possibility of me explaining in excruciating detail every reason I don't agree with your post or why I just don't like the game in general. 

I also think it's a little silly to count your sentences and try to say "look, I'm not only focusing on this, why are you accusing me of this o_O w_w". Look at what I wrote: "I feel like you're doing a bad job of trying to move my position to one I never claimed nor wish to defend." I didn't say you moved the entire discussion to this type of discourse, I said that part of your replies came off as if it was trying to move a position I have on a specific part of the topic in one direction. That's not me saying that's all you're making the discussion about. Indeed, if that was what I was saying, how could I also say in that very reply that I'd love to delve deeper into the other parts of the game to explain my criticisms? Why would I do that if we were only talking about one specific topic? I was acknowledging your other points, when I said that. I'm also not sure why you're saying talking about other points disqualifies purposeful distortion of intent. I mean, first of all, your initial reply lead with discussion of story, so I'm not sure that's a good argument. Secondly, being on this site and seeing many arguments, I actually think talking about many finer points at once in a very general topic is a pretty great way to make someone lose their own point or say something they didn't mean to say or to attribute something to said person without backlash from them. It can make them argue over small semantics (like we're doing now) for a long period of time before they realize they didn't even agree with the initial premise being attributed to them to begin with. It's a pretty easy way to miss the forest for the trees actually, and isn't too uncommon in real life debates. 

Regardless, I am genuinely sorry if I have been uncharitable towards you. It wasn't entirely fair to say that, just because your initial reply sounded very leading meant it was so or that it was on purpose. I'm just generally very cynical when you criticize an RPG for being bland and get met with the classic "What were you expecting it to be, Final Fantasy?" type of line. It's tired, it's annoying, frankly starting by assuming someone's position is usually an irritating way to start a discussion, even if you didn't mean it to be, and it didn't come off as an entirely genuine query, especially with the hyperbole about possible criticisms. I don't even like most plot-centric RPGs that much (love the concepts of them but with more attention to story comes more nitpicks), so anyone who knows me wouldn't make that assumption.  

Plot is an element of the story. It is part of it. If you are criticizing the plot it is 100% accurate to say you are criticizing the story, even if saying you are criticizing the plot would be slightly more accurate.

Either way, in your original post you did not use the word "plot" or "story". My interpretation was that you were including things like the setting and the conflict, so, even though I wasn't consciously thinking about it, story was the appropriate word as it includes setting, conflict, and plot. In your second post, you specifically spoke about the story, so in my response I addressed your comment about the story. Whether or not your first post meant to include story is kind of irrelevant at that point. At that point you completely unambiguously mentioned story, so I commented on story at that point. At no point until this post did you use the word plot, and honestly I still do not see why the distinction is relevant. I don't think your post demonstrates that, and I'm not going to go through the weeds to explain why, because I really don't care.

Considering that, it's kind of weird to suggest that using story to mean plot (as you point out they are often used as synonyms, and plot is an element of story) is an intentional attempt to strawman you. Since you have apologized, I accept, and we can move on.



Nautilus said:
JWeinCom said:

"The first game was so bland and boring. It had a few good humorous moments but it felt so 'artificial'. If you didn't have the context of the creator literally crying at E3 it would seem like the most inhuman product imaginable. Bland writing, ESPECIALLY bland music and a fairly repetitive set up."

Yes, you did mention the writing. The first and third bolded sections I took to be references to the story, which I feel was pretty reasonable. Either way, referencing the "bland writing" clearly speaks to the story. So... yeah, according to your post, that was part of why you thought the game was bland. If that's not what you meant, then that is a flaw in your writing.

Your second post specifically complained about the story, saying it should have been more interesting. This is a position that you clearly took, so I took one sentence to address it. Of the nine sentence post, one talked about the story, two about the music, and six were about the game's structure. You ignored everything I said except for the one sentence about the story then criticized me for trying to make the conversation about the story O_o...................... So yeah, If I was trying to force you into taking some position about the story, then I would have indeed been doing a terrible job of it. Which maybe should indicate that's not what I was trying to do. 

No longer care about what you think of the game but please do not accuse me of any kind of dishonesty ^_^

Yeahhhh..... I'm with Alchemist on this one. He never really claimed anything you have said, especially since he was emphatic that he *personally* didnt think it was good.

I mean, I dont agree with his opinion, the game was great and I am super happy that the sequel is happening, but he is right not bringing up anything you claimed he had.

Thanks for the input. Specifically, what position did I claim he held that he did not express? Quote me directly please. If you can't then please do not accuse me of dishonesty. ^_^



JWeinCom said:
AngryLittleAlchemist said:

Ok, I don't want this conversation to go down a path of trying to one up each other, which is clearly what I've invited and what you are doing right now. So I'll just say: I'm not sure if you're being intellectually dishonest here, or if there's a failure of communication from both sides that is at fault. So I'll take back my implication of dishonesty from earlier. 

When you talked about story, it seemed pretty obvious to me that you were talking about the plot of the game. Now, story and plot are two different things: One is a lot more general, the other is centered around the main events of a story. Before you say it's not fair of me to criticize your posts as feeling similar to "entrapment" or being false equivalencies because of an interpretation on my part, let me remind you that your own post that I'm replying to admits to having done so. That's not to say that you should feel bad about that, just that we're clear it's perfectly acceptable when talking about each others writings to bring up interpretation, because a specific interpretation could be at fault of the person writing, not just the interpreter. 

The reason it seemed pretty obvious that you were talking about plot is the limitations you kept putting on the game. In fact, no, you basically admit to talking about plot with how you describe potential criticisms of the story.

"Did you expect a crossover between Rabbids, who communicate only in screams, and Mario characters to have a rich and nuanced story? If so, I think the problems lied with your expectations"

"As for the story, I'm really not sure what you could have expected in a crossover between a group of characters that only scream, and a group that is mostly mute. "

The way you are narrowing down elements of the "story" is the same way you'd narrow down criticisms of the games plot. You even separate in this very reply  my first comment ("few good humorous moments but it felt so 'artificial'") from my second one ("Bland writing") on the basis of:

"The first and third bolded sections I took to be references to the story, which I feel was pretty reasonable. Either way, referencing the "bland writing" clearly speaks to the story."

You see how you separate the difference between comedy criticisms and "bland writing" because you think the first could potentially have to do with the story but you know the second one does have to do with the story? That's the exact issue, you "know" the second one has to be about the story, because to you it seems like a plot-centric criticism. When technically ... every skit, joke, bit, it's all part of the story. You are conflating story with plot and assuming my "bland writing" comment has to do with criticisms of the plot. It doesn't. It's about the humor and skits and character side-interactions of the game. I don't care that much about the plot or the major events, most Mario games have bog standard plots anyways. Yes, I did entertain your point and say that I guess the plot could have been better, but that's the point of entertaining a criticism: Testing whether or not you agree with something, even if it's not really what you're talking about to begin with. It's not really something that affected the game's enjoyment too much for me, but I guess I could agree it's a flaw, even if that's not what I was referring to in my original comments at all. And that's what we're arguing about: my original comments. 

The only technicality you have to win on is that you kept saying "story", in which case the literal definition of a story would encompass those things, but again, how you characterized possible criticisms of the story literally fit the definition of plot criticisms (and I know those two words are often used as synonyms, but generally story is much more broad, and I am using the more literal definitions). Because even though you didn't say "main events", you were very specific to separate stuff like side-gags and comedy from the "bland writing" criticism, and even kept defending the Rabbids on a basis of how limited they are from the perspective of potential story capabilities. You are at the very least using a definition of "story" that I'm not ascribing to, nor am I criticizing the game based off that definition. Unless you are implying that character interactions and comedy can only have a certain level of quality with the kind of archetype the Rabbids and Mario's crew are? In which case that's hard to defend: That is either saying there's a kind of limitation of writing quality that doesn't really exist for these character archetypes (tons of great comedy and character interactions in things as silly as the Rabbids), or admitting that the fundamental nature of the Rabbids handicaps how good the comedy can be. Either way, it's a loss. At the very least, you should realize that story is all-encompassing enough that criticisms of side-gags, comedy, and random character interactions can fit in the definition of "story" without being criticisms of the story not being nuanced enough, or having archetypes that prohibit potential plot nuance. In the end, you either conflated plot and story, or are using a definition you didn't elaborate on that isn't the standard definition, or aren't expressing yourself very well, in any case I'd say that's a flaw in your writing, no? 

So just to be clear before moving on: No, my comments about the "writing" and "story" up to this point do not refer to the extremely confined definition of story you are using for this discussion. 

And come on man, I think even you can admit it's not fair to say I "ignored the rest of your comment" when I literally said that I'd be fine giving a detailed response to the rest of it and why I don't like the game very much. That's the exact opposite of ignoring it. I gave you an opportunity to say you wanted to hear me out. I didn't just write a wall of text because I know how those conversations tend to go down: Either the other person becomes disinterested once you elaborate, or they focus on one specific sentence and try to misconstrue it into some indefensible fallacy. And you kind of already proved that point by admitting disinterest in the topic, though you could blame me for it I suppose. 

It's especially funny because you actually didn't address my point about the incredibly lackluster roster, which was you ignoring it. Don't get me wrong, I understand that conversations can flow naturally and sometimes it doesn't make sense to reply to every point a person makes. But that's exactly it: you technically ignored me, whereas I opened up the possibility of me explaining in excruciating detail every reason I don't agree with your post or why I just don't like the game in general. 

I also think it's a little silly to count your sentences and try to say "look, I'm not only focusing on this, why are you accusing me of this o_O w_w". Look at what I wrote: "I feel like you're doing a bad job of trying to move my position to one I never claimed nor wish to defend." I didn't say you moved the entire discussion to this type of discourse, I said that part of your replies came off as if it was trying to move a position I have on a specific part of the topic in one direction. That's not me saying that's all you're making the discussion about. Indeed, if that was what I was saying, how could I also say in that very reply that I'd love to delve deeper into the other parts of the game to explain my criticisms? Why would I do that if we were only talking about one specific topic? I was acknowledging your other points, when I said that. I'm also not sure why you're saying talking about other points disqualifies purposeful distortion of intent. I mean, first of all, your initial reply lead with discussion of story, so I'm not sure that's a good argument. Secondly, being on this site and seeing many arguments, I actually think talking about many finer points at once in a very general topic is a pretty great way to make someone lose their own point or say something they didn't mean to say or to attribute something to said person without backlash from them. It can make them argue over small semantics (like we're doing now) for a long period of time before they realize they didn't even agree with the initial premise being attributed to them to begin with. It's a pretty easy way to miss the forest for the trees actually, and isn't too uncommon in real life debates. 

Regardless, I am genuinely sorry if I have been uncharitable towards you. It wasn't entirely fair to say that, just because your initial reply sounded very leading meant it was so or that it was on purpose. I'm just generally very cynical when you criticize an RPG for being bland and get met with the classic "What were you expecting it to be, Final Fantasy?" type of line. It's tired, it's annoying, frankly starting by assuming someone's position is usually an irritating way to start a discussion, even if you didn't mean it to be, and it didn't come off as an entirely genuine query, especially with the hyperbole about possible criticisms. I don't even like most plot-centric RPGs that much (love the concepts of them but with more attention to story comes more nitpicks), so anyone who knows me wouldn't make that assumption.  

Plot is an element of the story. It is part of it. If you are criticizing the plot it is 100% accurate to say you are criticizing the story, even if saying you are criticizing the plot would be slightly more accurate.

Either way, in your original post you did not use the word "plot" or "story". My interpretation was that you were including things like the setting and the conflict, so, even though I wasn't consciously thinking about it, story was the appropriate word as it includes setting, conflict, and plot. In your second post, you specifically spoke about the story, so in my response I addressed your comment about the story. Whether or not your first post meant to include story is kind of irrelevant at that point. At that point you completely unambiguously mentioned story, so I commented on story at that point. At no point until this post did you use the word plot, and honestly I still do not see why the distinction is relevant. I don't think your post demonstrates that, and I'm not going to go through the weeds to explain why, because I really don't care.

Considering that, it's kind of weird to suggest that using story to mean plot (as you point out they are often used as synonyms, and plot is an element of story) is an intentional attempt to strawman you. Since you have apologized, I accept, and we can move on.

Just to clarify: My entire point in my reply was I'm not criticizing the plot/the confines of what you count as "story" elements... that was why I quoted you and showed the parts that you considered criticizing the story, and the parts that you didn't consider criticizing the story/were iffy on including as a comparison, and by your own metrics the stuff I am criticizing belongs in the latter not the former. 

I'm also not sure why you can't just accept what it means to entertain a point. Yes, when you asked for my opinion, I did say I guess the plot could be more interesting. Regardless, that has nothing to do with the totality of my comments, because that's not why I find the game bland nor is it the reason I gave, which is what we're talking about. Like I said, I couldn't really care if the plot was more interesting or not, even if when asked for specificity I guess it's not the most entertaining plot. But that's not the problem, especially given it's a Mario game. By trying to hammer this as a reason for why I am wrong, you are ironically making it about the plot, which is the point: that was never my intention. 

But sure, we can move on. It's probably better to end it, we'd just be spiraling down minutia forever otherwise. 



AngryLittleAlchemist said:

The first game was so bland and boring. It had a few good humorous moments but it felt so 'artificial'. If you didn't have the context of the creator literally crying at E3 it would seem like the most inhuman product imaginable. Bland writing, ESPECIALLY bland music and a fairly repetitive set up. Good gameplay though. I think it says a lot that most of the discussion online is still about how "surprising it was that it was decent" and not whether or not it's actually a great game.

It had a very good foundation but the most bland structure was ressurected on top of it. This game would have to be at least 1.4x better to be worth a damn.

What strategy RPGs have you played to completion? Just trying to get an idea of your pseudo-overton window when it comes to these types of games. If that makes sense.



JWeinCom said:
Nautilus said:

Yeahhhh..... I'm with Alchemist on this one. He never really claimed anything you have said, especially since he was emphatic that he *personally* didnt think it was good.

I mean, I dont agree with his opinion, the game was great and I am super happy that the sequel is happening, but he is right not bringing up anything you claimed he had.

Thanks for the input. Specifically, what position did I claim he held that he did not express? Quote me directly please. If you can't then please do not accuse me of dishonesty. ^_^

"Did you expect a crossover between Rabbids, who communicate only in screams, and Mario characters to have a rich and nuanced story? If so, I think the problems lied with your expectations."

Mostly boils down to this sentence. He did say that the story was boring and the plot/story was almost non-existant(or something to that effect), which IS a valid criticism. I mean, Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi RPGs have silent protagonists and they manage to have a much better story than this. Then you wrote that phrase, which really dosent have anything to do with what he said( again, you can expect a decent story out of a mario game) and that's where things gone downhill.

And you dont have to be defensive about it. I liked the game too. You just made an assumption, or in the best case, made a extreme claim that Alchemist was "dumb"( thats the sentiment I got from that sentence) for expecting more out of the story, because it had silent characters and the rabbids, something he never said, because again, its normal to expect a decent story out of a franchise that has a history of its spin offs having good plots, or at least decent ones.

I mean, the sequel is seemingly going with an original villain, which is a sign that the story will play a larger role. They even explicity said that the Sparks origin was a mystery and a central part of the story. So yeah, just because you have Rabbids and characters that dont talk dont mean you cant have a more elaborate plot.

In the end, I just think it was a misunderstanding between both of you. So no one is calling you of being dishonest(at least I am not), just that this whole discussion is more of a misunderstanding than anything else.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1