JWeinCom said:
First off, Texas is not so monumentally red. Of the 30 or so states Trump won, Texas was the 9th closest. Trump's margin of victory there was about the same as it was in Iowa. It was within 10 points, less than half of what it was in 2000. It shifted towards the Democrats in 2016, despite almost every other state shifting right. Ted Cruz won the senate race there by 2% in 18.
Your theory is a bit... odd. I'm not sure how you expect your scenario to lead to anything but decades of GOP control. The "radical" part of the democratic party is not large enough to be a major force without the moderate democrats as part of the party. And if Joe Biden isn't "center" enough to get GOP voters away from Trump, that faction of the party is not going to be able to garner much support. I'm not sure how you expect either of those parties to compete with the GOP if it's unified by a Trump win. Three parties won't work if one of them has 40+ percent of the vote. You'd have to get to a situation where the Democrat+DSA or whatever you think will happen together can prevent the republicans from getting 270 electoral votes, and also win enough state legislatures that they can somehow form a sort of coalition government when the vote goes to the house... Which seems... unlikely.
And, it's not likely that Trump will win by such a margin that the democrats will just give up as a party or split. It didn't happen when Reagan won twice, by way bigger margins than Trump possibly could, or when Bush won twice in a row. If Trump wins, it will likely be a slight electoral victory, and a popular vote loss, which isn't likely to make the Democrats so defeated that they'll simply give up, especially if they maintain control of at least one house of congress. It's more likely that the GOP would split if there was a Trump landlslide. Trump is such a polarizing figure who will refuse to let go of control of the party.
And... in the meantime there are dire consequences in regard to the ongoing Covid pandemic, the right to bodily autonomy, 4 more years of not doing anything to combat global warming, the potential loss of healthcare for millions, loss of rights for gay and trans people, and so on. We have someone utterly incompetent in charge of responding to whatever threat may emerge. This time it was Covid, who knows what it could be next time. Plus you have someone who has shown to have no plan to address the racial issues in the country, and has consistently made the violence cities are dealing with worse. If America's position in the world declines, then either Russia or China fills that gap, and I don't know if that's a good thing.
Let's say you're right and that if Trump wins, the Democratic party will become two viable parties at some point within the next decade. Maybe that's good for you watching from Spain. We actually have to live through for at least 4, and more likely 12+ years. And with the way Trump is handling things, a lot of people are not going to make it there.
Honestly, based on your views it seems like you sort of get the big picture in American politics, but don't really know the details. For instance, how red Texas is or how a three party dynamic would play out. Granted, you know way more about my country's politics than I do about yours, but I don't think you know quite enough to make the kinds of predictions you're making.
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1. Texas is not as red as a state like SD or AK, but it's definitely red in the sense that the last person who won said state was Jimmy Carter. It simply cannot turn unless the night goes catastrophically for the GOP. Think of TX as the Red version of California.
2. The GOP, if it does win, won't have taken victory because they are popular, but because they are led by Donald Trump. Boorish as he might be, as soon as he has to leave, then what? Mitt Romney 2.0? The Democratic Party will have essentially taken the next election if this happens, however, they will no longer be able to ignore the left wing element of the party. As you acknowledged, the demographics favor them, but those votes veer far left (or left for the rest of the world) and would essentially force the GOP pleasing Blue Republicans out of the party as their effective demographic advantage shrinks over time. Assuming the DP does not split, then it will end up losing control of the situation and the left wing of the party will take over. In other words, centrism will be axed or the DP will risk what you mentioned: decades of GOP rule because they can't put two sticks together.
3. The reason they are likely to disband is that they are loosing to a foolish, boorish, clearly inarticulate candidate in an election where everything went for them: like Reagan, they will have lost twice, but unlike them, they will not be able to blame a shrewd candidate for their loss. As a result, the blame game will fall squarely on the party, who will put two and two together and notice the parallels with 2016: running a centrist Obama era candidate. This means if they do not fall apart (this scenario is not intended to be the main one), the party will have no choice but veer left instead of right, especially if they already closed the gap in Red states like TX but found they still lost... which means they aren't center enough and going further right would be... falling in line with the GOP, even if not the Trump GOP, which is going to die in the next election.
Well, you could make a case they decide to try for a third time, since with Trump gone, the logic that applies to him no longer does, so they could win with a centrist candidate... in which case, your country's future is fucked.
Trump doesn't need to dissolve the GOP. The party pretty much fell in line and will do so if he wins this one for sure. They want to win, ideology be damned.
4. Over the last four years, most of the US losses both nationally and internationally have been mostly public relations fiascos, but strictly speaking, I haven't noticed (do note that I can't look close enough/local level to correctly assess this) any major roll back in rights, and any roll back SCOTUS triggers they can trigger regardless of who's in office without expanding the court, which is going to lead to... messy stuff, to say the least. Foreign policy wise, I'm afraid the era of Unipolarity was an anomaly and not something you can "re-enforce" by using force. China is going to fill a vacuum and the US cannot be everywhere all the time. Finite resources and all that. While I do worry about the environment, the fact Biden pretty much shrunk the GND into a neutered replica is only going to be a paliative and not solve issues in the long term.
Also, when I wrote all this, there seemed to be clear parallels between the US and Spain. Indeed, I can claim to know enough because politics in Spain resemble, right now, what I've seen in the US. The only difference is that when the parties that ruled Spain collapsed and were essentially murdered, the autonomous regions started a collective independence drive that led to overfragmentation of the vote and when the ruling party got its act together, it was able to abuse the first past the post parliament to cling to power by relying on the shared vitriol of these parties towards a common enemy. Had the collapse led to only three parties then we would have a ruling third party or a kingmaker.
Do be aware that when I posit the three party scenario, I also posit the Electoral College would start looking dumb and the calls for throwing it out would increase. The GOP would see that in a multiparty state, they actually stand a chance of winning normally instead of having to hold onto first past the post mechanics, something that would lead to a GOP push for dismantling it as well. Granted, this notion rests on the idea the GOP is smart enough to realize this. Not sure if they are collectively dull.
More than not knowing, it's me making a big gamble... one that might indeed need payment from those who are going to have to deal with four more years of crap, but one that could pay up in the long term. I'm looking towards the long term voting trends of most countries right now than I'm at the big picture, but I get that those could be easily confused.
gergroy said:
AsGryffynn said:
Gee I get it... To be honest, I should've expected most of the people in this thread to be voters instead of observers like me who are not American.
Because trending Democratic and flipping are two different things. The red majority in Texas is way too monumental to change in the span of one term. If Texas turns blue, it's almost a mathematical certainty other deep red states do as well. It's pretty much a "Red Shield" much like the Blue Wall the Dems touted.
I think it could go either way, but the winner isn't going to reach far. I could see a victory with less than 280 votes. I think Trump would win by a hair's breadth (around 2 to 4 votes over the post) and Biden would barely scrap 300 if he does (even though the vote is going to be over 6 million in gap).
Man, I recognize both candidates have pros and cons, which is why I tried to ask for an apolitical opinion. I do favor Trump slightly but not because Trump has good policies, but because if we ever had a shot of getting rid of bipartisan first past the post voting in the US, it's now. If the Dems lose, they'll know that 2016 was definitely not a fluke and they need drastic and radical change or they will collapse and spawn two smaller parties that will rapidly absorb votes from Green and GOP voters and lead to the collapse of bipartisanship which would allow for an actual tear down of the Electoral College. The issue is tearing down the EC with a two party system: by demographics alone, it would lead to a Dominant Party state with the Democratic Party taking on a position not different from that of United Russia. A popular vote system needs a third competitor so geography and demographics no longer determine the share of the vote like it does today.
If they win, expect to see the Democratic Party put off many "radical" reforms that are already well over thirty five years overdue. That's why I want them to lose.
OTOH, if the GOP loses, not much changes on their end and they go back to the Neoliberal approach that produced clones of Reagan with far less charisma. They win, and we already have a clear right wing party. Then the court falls on the Dems court. If they repeat this a third time, the people are just going to throw their arms up and leave, which is already a good thing since it means they will still tear down the bipartisan structure of the state, even if they do so without the Democratic Party's support or cloud.
If Trump wins and things go well, expect the next election run to feature the DSA vs the Democratic Center Party vs the GOP.
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Win or lose, the Democratic Party isn’t going anywhere. The Democratic Party isn’t going fracture, it’s just too hard to get elected in the current system without a big tent. Especially when demographic changes favor Democrats in the long term, it’s the gop that are hemorrhaging support as their base ages out. If any party is going to fracture, it’s the gop.
Really though, I wouldn’t expect either party to break up. We would need to change the current system to something like ranked choice voting if we wanted to give a third party a realistic option. That won’t happen though as the people in power were elected in the current system and don’t want to change that. Third parties will continue to be boxed out or absorbed by the big tents for the foreseeable future...
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If they lose, they will have no choice but to reshuffle everything and move left, since the right wing push will be blamed for leading to two consecutive losses in an election that they could've crushed otherwise. Even when they are as capable as they are, they will probably realize the issue is not the adversary and the solution to their problems and woes is to change the message. Move further right or stay where you are. If either seems to be useless, then only the option of moving further left and eventually hoisting the Green New Deal and Medicare for All as part of the party manifesto will seem viable to them.
Now, the idea of throwing away the EC might seem farfetched, but if Republicans found out a divided Blue party would allow them to win by relying solely on the popular vote, every member there would endorse the abolition of the system. My gamble hinges on this realization: that the Dems are going to gain on them and that if they can segment the vote and win with a simple majority, then they don't need to represent the whole country or win in California: they just need to get the most votes of any party, which is easy if the left and center votes are separated.
However, I do admit this might start debates most politicians would rather not have, so it does need to be taken as what it is: a gambit. One that involves the Dems losing their nerve and the GOP doing the same when Trump leaves... and coming to the conclusion that the current mechanism is dead.