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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Rumor: Xbox "Lockhart" specs leaked, is $300

Mr Puggsly said:
goopy20 said:

The ps4 pro and X1X didn't have totally different graphics settings. They were designed to be 4k consoles, not next gen consoles and anyone who doesn't have a 4k tv would hardly be able to tell the difference. Games on X1X could potentially look a ton better but developers didn't make any game that really made good use of the hardware. Instead the games were exactly the same as on the base consoles and all the extra processing power was used on 4k and/or 60fps. 

4k Is nice but it's a tremendous waste of resources on consoles as most people can hardly tell the difference unless they have a 65inch tv. That's why so few people upgraded to a mid-gen console. So if we're talking about things like Ray Tracing there's no way developers would compromise on that in favor of native 4k. Keep in mind that even a 2080Ti can barely hit 30fps in most current gen games with Ray Tracing enabled and native 4k. 

Fact is that developers will always have to make compromises if they're building an ambitious game and resolution is usually pretty low on the priority list. Just look at how many games are 720p on Xone, and is that really such a big deal? Not at all, because while Red Dead Redemption on the 360 runs at almost the same resolution as RDR2 on Xone, RDR2 does look a helluva lot better.

Your first is paragraph is wrong. There are games that actually have increased graphics settings on Pro and X1X. Its not just resolution and performance. They vary and some might be small, but they exist.

Some games actually increase graphics settings like textures, shadows, draw distance and other settings if you're using a premium console. 1st party X1X games for example tend to have increased visual settings and/or better textures than base X1.

Ray tracing isn't necesarily a crucial feature and many games may not use it because it can be very demanding. Next gen consoles might also use advanced image reconstruction techniques which make low resolutions look significantly higher. Developers have a lot of new options in the coming gen. Even something like ray tracing can be adjusted to be less demanding, as can many effects. Series S could lower visual settings to keep resolution higher if developers feel they should.

It's certainly possible Series S could have content in the ballpark of 720p if developers are really pushing PS5 and Series X GPUs hard. But as you pointed out, it would likely be exceptional visuals as was RDR2 for the 8th gen. Dynamic resolution has also been a great feature to keep image quality sharper.

I don't know man. I kinda expect all next gen games to have exceptional visuals and Ray Tracing to become the norm, especially when MS first announced the 12Tflops Series X. For me it would be perfect if both MS and Sony launched a high-end console at $599. Maybe that is expensive, but we live in a world where teenagers walk around with $1000 phones and if there is no cheap option, I'm sure they would still sell great if consumers clearly see the value from the start. We would get eye-ball-melting graphics and prices would go down a few years later anyway. 

I;m sure Lockhart will perform better than the X1X and I understand that Tflops don't tell the whole story. But isn't the gpu the most important part of a console and the last thing you want platform holders to cheap out on? Anyway you spin it, 4Tflops doesn't sound like a generational leap from say the 360 to ps4. It would be an incredibly unbalanced console where the gpu becomes a major bottleneck and no way in hell it could do Ray Tracing, which is one of the main reasons to get excited about next gen.

But on a positive note, I don't think Lockhart will be their base console and that it'll launch along side Series X. It's far more likely that it will come later as a Xcloud console. Since E3 got canned, MS will be doing a GDC livestream next week where they'll talk about things like Ray Tracing and their vision for next gen. As I've been ranting about for 2 weeks, Cloud gaming and GP will likely be MS's main focus for next gen.

Xbox Series X + Project xCloud = New Chapter in Gaming

https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/games/events/gdc-2020

Last edited by goopy20 - on 12 March 2020

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victor83fernandes said:

There is no way this is true, like at all

1 - There is no reason for a 300 dollar price point, consumers are more than willing to pay minimum 400 for next gen

2 - 4 Teraflops Is way below the current generation xbox X, even below the ps4 pro, that wont happen

3 - Microsoft will not risk the bad marketing and the jokes again this generation, launching a new gen console weaker than the current gen

4 - Microsoft will not risk launching a base console way weaker than ps5 base console, they cant afford it as they don't have the exclusives to swing them, unless they are trying for a reason to get out of the console market, possible

5 - If this is true then Ill definitely wait a couple years before I buy into Xbox again, because the future is too uncertain, unlike the ps5 which is guarantee huge success and many exclusives for at least 7 years.

This is why TFlops can be deceiving.

1. XBO X has 6TFlops, very similar to an RX 580. An RX 5500 has only 4.8 TFlops, but slightly higher performance than a RX 580. And that's the 4GB RX 5500 version, which gets choked by it's lack of VRAM. In other words, at 4.x TFlops Lockhart would still get about One X GPU performance - and would get much stronger CPU performance. More on that below.

2. XBO X gets choked by the weak CPU, especially when it comes to higher framerates. The CPU is one of the reasons why this Gen was almost always locked to 30 FPS, as the CPU made it impossible to reach 60 in many times. Hence also the obsession with 4K when gamers were asking for higher FPS. This limitation would be gone with Lockhart, allowing the player to choose between better graphics and higher FPS.

3. There are diminishing returns for more performance. Reaching 6 TFlops for instance would mostly be only slightly better looking, but certainly much more expensive to produce.

4. At that price, it would allow Microsoft to cash in those who are strapped for cash for a bigger console yet deliver One X visuals. This could hurt Sony much more than you seem to imagine, as the early life is crucial for the future of the console.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
victor83fernandes said:

There is no way this is true, like at all

1 - There is no reason for a 300 dollar price point, consumers are more than willing to pay minimum 400 for next gen

2 - 4 Teraflops Is way below the current generation xbox X, even below the ps4 pro, that wont happen

3 - Microsoft will not risk the bad marketing and the jokes again this generation, launching a new gen console weaker than the current gen

4 - Microsoft will not risk launching a base console way weaker than ps5 base console, they cant afford it as they don't have the exclusives to swing them, unless they are trying for a reason to get out of the console market, possible

5 - If this is true then Ill definitely wait a couple years before I buy into Xbox again, because the future is too uncertain, unlike the ps5 which is guarantee huge success and many exclusives for at least 7 years.

This is why TFlops can be deceiving.

1. XBO X has 6TFlops, very similar to an RX 580. An RX 5500 has only 4.8 TFlops, but slightly higher performance than a RX 580. And that's the 4GB RX 5500 version, which gets choked by it's lack of VRAM. In other words, at 4.x TFlops Lockhart would still get about One X GPU performance - and would get much stronger CPU performance. More on that below.

2. XBO X gets choked by the weak CPU, especially when it comes to higher framerates. The CPU is one of the reasons why this Gen was almost always locked to 30 FPS, as the CPU made it impossible to reach 60 in many times. Hence also the obsession with 4K when gamers were asking for higher FPS. This limitation would be gone with Lockhart, allowing the player to choose between better graphics and higher FPS.

3. There are diminishing returns for more performance. Reaching 6 TFlops for instance would mostly be only slightly better looking, but certainly much more expensive to produce.

4. At that price, it would allow Microsoft to cash in those who are strapped for cash for a bigger console yet deliver One X visuals. This could hurt Sony much more than you seem to imagine, as the early life is crucial for the future of the console.

What makes you think going from 4 to 6 Tflops will result in only slightly better looking games? The Xone had about 30% less Tflops than the ps4 and we've seen games running in 1080p on ps4 vs 720p on Xone. Just imagine what the difference would be if that's 300% less Tflops. A 1080p game on ps5 would be running in 540p on Series S. Would that really be worth saving $100 or $200 over?



goopy20 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Your first is paragraph is wrong. There are games that actually have increased graphics settings on Pro and X1X. Its not just resolution and performance. They vary and some might be small, but they exist.

Some games actually increase graphics settings like textures, shadows, draw distance and other settings if you're using a premium console. 1st party X1X games for example tend to have increased visual settings and/or better textures than base X1.

Ray tracing isn't necesarily a crucial feature and many games may not use it because it can be very demanding. Next gen consoles might also use advanced image reconstruction techniques which make low resolutions look significantly higher. Developers have a lot of new options in the coming gen. Even something like ray tracing can be adjusted to be less demanding, as can many effects. Series S could lower visual settings to keep resolution higher if developers feel they should.

It's certainly possible Series S could have content in the ballpark of 720p if developers are really pushing PS5 and Series X GPUs hard. But as you pointed out, it would likely be exceptional visuals as was RDR2 for the 8th gen. Dynamic resolution has also been a great feature to keep image quality sharper.

I don't know man. I kinda expect all next gen games to have exceptional visuals and Ray Tracing to become the norm, especially when MS first announced the 12Tflops Series X. For me it would be perfect if both MS and Sony launched a high-end console at $599. Maybe that is expensive, but we live in a world where teenagers walk around with $1000 phones and if there is no cheap option, I'm sure they would still sell great if consumers clearly see the value from the start. We would get eye-ball-melting graphics and prices would go down a few years later anyway. 

I;m sure Lockhart will perform better than the X1X and I understand that Tflops don't tell the whole story. But isn't the gpu the most important part of a console and the last thing you want platform holders to cheap out on? Anyway you spin it, 4Tflops doesn't sound like a generational leap from say the 360 to ps4. It would be an incredibly unbalanced console where the gpu becomes a major bottleneck and no way in hell it could do Ray Tracing, which is one of the main reasons to get excited about next gen.

But on a positive note, I don't think Lockhart will be their base console and that it'll launch along side Series X. It's far more likely that it will come later as a Xcloud console. Since E3 got canned, MS will be doing a GDC livestream next week where they'll talk about things like Ray Tracing and their vision for next gen. As I've been ranting about for 2 weeks, Cloud gaming and GP will likely be MS's main focus for next gen.

Xbox Series X + Project xCloud = New Chapter in Gaming

https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/games/events/gdc-2020

Frankly, I would be fine with $599 PS5 and Series X. However, that would probably just make Series S more successful early on at $299 and running the same games.

PS5 and Series X could be the lead platforms doing "eyeball melting graphics."  Even while doing that there are many visual settings that can be adjusted to perform well on 1/3 of the GPU power.

You say Lockhart's TF number isn't the whole story, then you compare it directly to 8th gen. The X1X virtually was a generational leap in GPU power, 5x over X1. Series S would be a massive upgrade over base 8th gen consoles in all specs.

Games with ray tracing tend to have quality settings. Hence, the simple solution is lowering resolutions and ray tracing quality if necessary for Series S. How many times do I need to repeat that same point?

Series S wouldn't be the platform you buy for the best graphics per se. It would be the one that plays the same games with visual compromises at a lower price. If adjusting resolution isn't enough or developers want a less compromised resolution, then they tweak visual settings as well.

That's the point of it. Series S would be a big upgrade over 8th gen in overall fidelity given its running 9th gen content. But at a modest price for lowered resolution and/or graphics settings.

I would also suspect Series S becomes the hardware utilized for xCloud.



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Radek said:
goopy20 said:

What makes you think going from 4 to 6 Tflops will result in only slightly better looking games? The Xone had about 30% less Tflops than the ps4 and we've seen games running in 1080p on ps4 vs 720p on Xone. Just imagine what the difference would be if that's 300% less Tflops. A 1080p game on ps5 would be running in 540p on Series S. Would that really be worth saving $100 or $200 over?

Why are you even mentioning 1080p games on PS5 when a 7 year old PS4 is aiming for that resolution?

PS5 games will be from 1800p to 2160p just like PS4 games are from 900p to 1080p.

We will probably get some cross-gen games running at 4k but no way we'll see it with true next gen games that'll use Ray Tracing. A 2080Ti can barely run current gen games at native 4k with RT enabled. Some people seem to be convinced native 4k will be a must for next gen graphics but it's not. Most Xone games run at pretty much the same resolution as the 15 year old Xbox 360 and nobody cares. 



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Radek said:
goopy20 said:

We will probably get some cross-gen games running at 4k but no way we'll see it with true next gen games that'll use Ray Tracing. A 2080Ti can barely run current gen games at native 4k with RT enabled. Some people seem to be convinced native 4k will be a must for next gen graphics but it's not. Most Xone games run at pretty much the same resolution as the 15 year old Xbox 360 and nobody cares. 

Raytracing can be optional you know? Like video options: 1440p 30 fps with Raytracing or 4K 30 fps without it.

RDR2 on Xbox One X is native 4K, why would I expect anything less than 4K from 2020 8K capable console?

1080p games on 2020 console... please don't make me laugh.

This is like saying there are snes games that run at 60fps, why would you expect any less from a PS4 game?

Native 4k is not a necessity for a crisp image, the same way 60fps is not a requirement for smooth gameplay. Many developers will opt for more impactful visuals over the highest possible resolution. A more important question you should be asking is why red dead redemption 2 doesn't run at 1080p on base Xbox One and PS4? 

Use that to extrapolate on how developers will use the power of next gen systems when they are the "base" platforms instead of looking at what res the game was able to hit on a $500 system released 4 years after the generation began. 



Remember the vast majority of the generation have base platforms. Any resolution that takes advantage of a 4k TV (upscale or native) is a step up for 90% of console owners. But it should go without saying that a generational leap is more then just the resolution.



Radek said:
goopy20 said:

We will probably get some cross-gen games running at 4k but no way we'll see it with true next gen games that'll use Ray Tracing. A 2080Ti can barely run current gen games at native 4k with RT enabled. Some people seem to be convinced native 4k will be a must for next gen graphics but it's not. Most Xone games run at pretty much the same resolution as the 15 year old Xbox 360 and nobody cares. 

Raytracing can be optional you know? Like video options: 1440p 30 fps with Raytracing or 4K 30 fps without it.

RDR2 on Xbox One X is native 4K, why would I expect anything less than 4K from 2020 8K capable console?

1080p games on 2020 PS5... please don't make me laugh.

Ray tracing might just be an optional thing on pc right now for the 1% of pc gamers who own a RTX card, but it won't be next gen. On consoles they'll be able to build their games from the ground up with RT in mind, and it should be a lot more spectacular than having some reflective puddles in BF. 

Like I said before, the X1X wasn't meant as a next gen console, it was meant as a 4k console. Personally I did buy a mid-gen console and I love it, but only because I have a 65 inch tv and I thought the resolution boost was worth it. However, playing the same games, just in 4k wasn't a good enough reason for most people to upgrade. From a next gen console people want new games and experiences that'll take a dramatic leap over current gen titles. Not the same games we're playing now in native 8k lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDFCSzQ4TrA



goopy20 said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

This is why TFlops can be deceiving.

1. XBO X has 6TFlops, very similar to an RX 580. An RX 5500 has only 4.8 TFlops, but slightly higher performance than a RX 580. And that's the 4GB RX 5500 version, which gets choked by it's lack of VRAM. In other words, at 4.x TFlops Lockhart would still get about One X GPU performance - and would get much stronger CPU performance. More on that below.

2. XBO X gets choked by the weak CPU, especially when it comes to higher framerates. The CPU is one of the reasons why this Gen was almost always locked to 30 FPS, as the CPU made it impossible to reach 60 in many times. Hence also the obsession with 4K when gamers were asking for higher FPS. This limitation would be gone with Lockhart, allowing the player to choose between better graphics and higher FPS.

3. There are diminishing returns for more performance. Reaching 6 TFlops for instance would mostly be only slightly better looking, but certainly much more expensive to produce.

4. At that price, it would allow Microsoft to cash in those who are strapped for cash for a bigger console yet deliver One X visuals. This could hurt Sony much more than you seem to imagine, as the early life is crucial for the future of the console.

What makes you think going from 4 to 6 Tflops will result in only slightly better looking games? The Xone had about 30% less Tflops than the ps4 and we've seen games running in 1080p on ps4 vs 720p on Xone. Just imagine what the difference would be if that's 300% less Tflops. A 1080p game on ps5 would be running in 540p on Series S. Would that really be worth saving $100 or $200 over?

Not the same games. Most x1 games ran at 900p vs 1080p on ps4. If there were any 720p games on x1, those were likely 900p on ps4.



shikamaru317 said:
goopy20 said:

What makes you think going from 4 to 6 Tflops will result in only slightly better looking games? The Xone had about 30% less Tflops than the ps4 and we've seen games running in 1080p on ps4 vs 720p on Xone. Just imagine what the difference would be if that's 300% less Tflops. A 1080p game on ps5 would be running in 540p on Series S. Would that really be worth saving $100 or $200 over?

That's a scenario that won't happen though. I'll be truly shocked if we get any 1080p games on PS5 and XSX next gen. Most devs are going to aim for 1800p or above on PS5 and XSX in my opinion, just like they did on Xbox One X. While I can't find any info about the current 4K tv adoption rate, I found a late 2018 article that said that it was already over 25% in early 2018, with forecasts pointing to 50% by the end of 2019. The rate is expected to keep increasing over the next few years. And while those are US numbers and 4K adoption is said to be much lower in emerging markets, 4K tv prices have now fallen to point where huge 4K growth is expected in emerging markets over the next few years. I just can't see many developers aiming for lower resolutions in order to push graphics further, especially since they have both MS and Sony in their ear asking them to aim for 4K and 60 fps on PS5 and XSX if possible.

If I'm right and the lowest resolution PS5 and XSX games we see this gen are at around 1800p, XSS will be able to manage 900p on those same games with about the same graphics settings. Maybe we see a handful of 1440p games on XSX and PS5 late gen, when PC starts to pull way ahead and devs begin struggling to scale their games properly, but you know what? Though a drop to 1440p on XSX and PS5 would result in a drop to 720p on XSS, I decided to do a test just now, and watch the Hellblade 2 trailer at 720p on my 1080p monitor, and I must say it doesn't look bad at all, a bit fuzzy for sure, especially thanks to Youtube compression artifacts, but I think if it was running natively at 720p on XSS with about the same graphics settings as the XSX version, it would be quite acceptable. Having some 720p games late gen on XSS would not turn me off from buying it personally. Now obviously If I had a 32" 4K monitor instead of my current 21" 1080p monitor, then obviously 720p wouldn't be acceptable on that screen like it is on my smaller 1080p screen, but XSS isn't really meant for people who already have 4K tv's or monitors, it's largely meant for those like myself who have been slow to adopt 4K. Many people who buy an XSS early gen will trade it in for an XSX or the mid-gen refresh Xbox later on in the gen, after they get a larger 4K screen, I know I probably will if I end up buying an XSS on launch (which will only happen if there is a disc-drive variant or external disc drive accessory).

I'm sure we are going to see some 1080p games, A and AA games may go for that. But sure those are the type of games that possibly Lockhart would be 900p or even 1080p if the dev try enough. Because sure for games that try to have the highest IQ possible they hardly will go for less than 1440p and reconstruction techniques to display at 4k or 1440p60fps supersampling for 1080p display or simple upscaling for performance mode.



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